FEDERAL laws regarding homebrewing

[ReverseApacheMaster]

If The US was a free country you`d have nothing to worry about as a free man could do anything he wanted with his own property without being granted permission by one of the Kings agencys.

Considering he is stationed in LIBYA that kinda makes your little rant moot.

 

[Brewer_Bob]

But like I said your life fascinates me, but if the Military Attaches are allowed to drink, are the marine guards?

MSGs do have diplomatic immunity. It makes for interesting situations because you will have some Lance Corporal MSG with more "rights" than a Colonel assigned to the same region.

That said, the MSGs actually have a lot of restrictions placed on them by the State Department (for the duration of an embassy assignment the MSGs belong to State and fall under the Marine Corps for fiscal and administrative matters only. MSGs must be single and they all share a residence. Many places they are not permitted to drive when the rest of us may. These restrictions do not apply to their detachment commander, who is usually a Gunny. Most Det Cdrs are tough on their MSGs. Being an MSG is a prestigious assignment for a Marine.

I HIGHLY doubt the Det Cdrs in Iraq and Afghanistan allow drinking, even if the Ambassador does.

 

[Brewer_Bob]

If The US was a free country you`d have nothing to worry about as a free man could do anything he wanted with his own property without being granted permission by one of the Kings agencys.

Become a premium supporter and we'll take it to the debate forum.

 

[Hermit]

I'm not going to read through all this but my question would be, can't you just get a legal opinion from the State Department on this? Seems like the easiest thing to do is get 'official' word from those that would make your life hell if you do this wrong.

 

[DeafSmith]

I'm not going to read through all this but my question would be, can't you just get a legal opinion from the State Department on this? Seems like the easiest thing to do is get 'official' word from those that would make your life hell if you do this wrong.

He'd probably get an automatic "NO" - easier for the bureaucrats to CYA than actually research and give an opinion that could possibly (even a 1 in a million chance) get them in trouble some day.

 

[Chesterbelloc]

Alright, this might be a unique spin on a common question here. I am searching online and can’t find anything concrete (maybe because there isn’t anything?) Hoping you guys can help out.

Are there any US FEDERAL laws regulating the production and selling of homebrew? Because I am stationed overseas I am not bound by any US STATE law. And because I am a diplomat I am not bound by my host country’s law. I am, however, bound by US federal law and US federal law only. So I am trying to determine what I can’t do with my homebrew under federal law.

Here is the thing. My homebrew has become very popular. Other diplomats are wanting to buy batches from me for both personal and official use. Official use being officially hosted events. Now, I am new to brewing so I welcome the excuse to brew more. But since I have to mail order EVERYTHING I use in home brewing, it can become pricey. What I would like to do is to sell my beer to these diplomats at COST. Absolutely no profit. I am not permitted to use my government quarters to run a business or to use my position as a diplomat to make a profit. I will not charge for my time, only for supplies and shipping. So I reiterate: NO PROFIT.

So what I am trying to determine is if there is a federal law against taking money for homebrew, even if it is not for profit. And if there is a limit to how much can be brewed.

I searched the wiki and got this:



Starting with the limit of homebrew allowed. Based on that limit my household is allowed 200 gallons. So does that include the gallons of beer you give away?

and on selling:




Does every state forbid it because every state has a law against it or is it because there is a federal law against it? And does me being reimbursed for supplies and shipping constitute “commercial sell”?

I have been googling and just can’t find specifics on federal law other than the vague guidelines I pasted above. I am NOT trying to find some loop hole, just the facts. And if the fact is it is against federal law for me to sell my homebrew at cost then I won’t do it. And more importantly, I will be able to tell my fellow diplomats exactly why I have to say no.

And before anyone says I should be asking a lawyer instead of guys on a message board, don’t worry, I will get permission through the proper channels before doing this. I just wanted to do my own due diligence before going to them. Thanks.

I have a DoS background.

First and foremost, you are bound to whatever the ambassador says. But, you are also bound to the host nations rules. In the case of alcohol, I would imagine a Muslim country automatically bans it. Sometimes the host nation allows certain leeway in regards to embassies.

It's best to ask some of the senior FS grades.


In the case of selling the best answer that I can give you is NEVER. It's better to do trades. Have them take you out for baba ganush or something.

 

[AKbrewer]

Become a premium supporter and we'll take it to the debate forum.

There is nothing to debate. You can`t sell your brew without government permission, I cant make over 200 gallons without government permission...Thats not freedom, although it is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[AKbrewer]

Considering he is stationed in LIBYA that kinda makes your little rant moot.

Not really,US Federal law is the important issue.

 

[Brewer_Bob]

I have a DoS background.

First and foremost, you are bound to whatever the ambassador says. But, you are also bound to the host nations rules. In the case of alcohol, I would imagine a Muslim country automatically bans it. Sometimes the host nation allows certain leeway in regards to embassies.

It's best to ask some of the senior FS grades.


In the case of selling the best answer that I can give you is NEVER. It's better to do trades. Have them take you out for baba ganush or something.

My entire career is spent working out of embassies. I am never stationed state side. I think I have more embassy tours under my belt than anyone else at the embassy with the possible exception of the AMB and DCM. That said, I did talk about it with some folks, such as the RSO, and got the green light.

I understand the whole host country rules thing. Libya has plenty for us and if we break them they won't hesitate to PNG us. That said, diplomats consumption of alcohol isn't prohibited by their rules. Hell, we had four open bars at the 4th of July event in which the highest levels of Libyan government were invited.

As for selling? No way. I wouldn't even sell cookies from my dip residence.

 

[billvon]

How is this bartering though? I am not gaining anything. They are giving me supplies but I am giving them back, just in a different form.

Well, the same would be true if they gave you coal and you gave them back the ash, or they gave you food and you gave them back the . . . you know. But both of those would be considered bartering too.

>Now, if I kept a portion of the beer for myself, then yeah, I would consider
>that bartering. If your car breaks down and your friend offers to fix it for
>you at no charge and for nothing in return, when he gives you the fixed car
>back does that count as bartering?

No. Now if you offered to pay for parts and tools, or provided him with the parts and tools, it _would_ be bartering.

But when someone comes to me and asks if I can produce 50 bottles of a certain style for an official function that can start to become a pricey favor, particulary in a country where it is very difficult to get beer bottles or CO2 for kegging.

Well, that should only be expensive once, right? Once you have the bottles/kegs it becomes a lot easier.

 

[Brewer_Bob]

There is nothing to debate. You can`t sell your brew without government permission, I cant make over 200 gallons without government permission...Thats not freedom, although it is just the tip of the iceberg.

I agree that is over regulation. There is plenty of over regulation in the US. And there are plenty of things in the US that need MORE regulation. If your idea of a free country is one without any regulations then that isn't a country I would want to be a citizen of. That said, I don't think "freedom" has to equal anarchy.

 

[jfr1111]

You might want to contact a competent lawyer on this. My very uneducated opinion would be: don't bother. You have a (probably) cushy job, why risk it ? It would be hard to keep such a thing on the down low now that it is on an Internet forum. I'm guessing the list of US ambassadors to Lybia who home brew isn't all that long.

Try to get the other people who enjoy your beer so much to start brewing their own. It'll be a lot easier on you.

 

[blizzard]

What is personal use? Is giving some homebrew to my buddies personal use? Is sharing with my colleagues personal use? Is entering your beer in a competition personal use?

My uneducated thoughts on this are - if you are giving away homebrew to friends and even colleagues with no intention of personal gain or barter, then that is personal use. If you are giving away homebrew for official events, then that across the line, in my opinion. If the official event is sponsored by the embassy, then your employer would have a definite benefit and it would be a short leap to say you then got some kind of benefit.

 

[Mongrel]

Bob, as someone who has lived overseas for a third of his life, I'd agree with people about not selling your brew. But damn, if it's your Ambassador who is asking you to brew for him...I really don't see a whole lot of risk. Stay legal, but more importantly, don't piss him off. Our stateside booze cops don't exactly operate on foreign soil. Nobody is coming to check how many gallons you've brewed. Yeah, this is your career, so stay smart about it.

Fortunately, I was in South America, and there's no shortage of booze.

 

[logan3825]

Here is a question: why can't you just give some beer to your colleagues?

It's alcohol, not cookies. Everything changes when you start talking about laws and controlled substances.

How about brewing at the home of the person who wants the beer? They order everything to their house and you go over to their house to brew. They buy everything, have all the stuff at their house. You receive no compensation, you just help them brew.

Other than that, I have to agree with most other people, talk to somebody within the embassy.

 

[Brewer_Bob]

Just to clarify though, the US Ambassador has NOT asked me to make him beer. It was a hypothetical. And I know plenty of ambassadors and other diplomats other than just the American ones.

Thanks for the input guys. I would never take on an “iffy” endeavor without the proper clearance. I’m a noob to brewing, but not to CYA in the government world. But I thought it would be a fun discussion and it was. I think I will start a more general thread on the “personal use” question though, as I think that has implications that affect all of us.

 

[Chesterbelloc]

I understand the whole host country rules thing. Libya has plenty for us and if we break them they won't hesitate to PNG us. That said, diplomats consumption of alcohol isn't prohibited by their rules.

It's amazing how petty stuff can get you kicked out of a country. I remember as PPD being always under the microscope. The internecine politics wasn't my flavour. I was probably too young.

Some of the best times I ever had was hanging out with people you wouldn't otherwise imagine yourself with, sharing a beer in some hastily setup roof top bar with a SIG at my side.

Sounds like you're no greenhorn. Best of luck.

 

[PanzerBanana]

To "barter" don't you have to get something in exchange for something else. Someone gives me a sheet of paper to draw a picture for them, I still end up with the same amount of paper I had after everything is done. Most of this seems like splitting hairs.

The easiest thing is to just figure whatever you brew, counting towards the 200 gallon limit. Unless, since it goes by household, they buy everything and you go over and brew it up while teaching them how do it themselves. "Teach a man to fish" and all.

Then they didn't "pay" you to do anything. You just used your experience and knowlege to teach them something they have the ability to do on their own.

Or make it a joint effort, split the beer, and count the beer as a portion of each of your household limits.

 

[rico567]

Bob, as someone who has lived overseas for a third of his life, I'd agree with people about not selling your brew. But damn, if it's your Ambassador who is asking you to brew for him...I really don't see a whole lot of risk. Stay legal, but more importantly, don't piss him off. Our stateside booze cops don't exactly operate on foreign soil. Nobody is coming to check how many gallons you've brewed. Yeah, this is your career, so stay smart about it.

Fortunately, I was in South America, and there's no shortage of booze.

This is the best of several pertinent posts, IMHO. The issue here may not be US law, or Libyan law, just using good judgement on what you can get away with. Good luck.

 

[LarryC]

This is a pretty interesting thread and I have no experience as a diplomat to draw from (six years in the Navy didn't produce anything like your job for me). However, I work for a fortune 500 company and they spell it out in a pretty straight forward way. The "perception" of misconduct or a conflict of interest is something that can get you in trouble and possibly cost you your job. As someone else mentioned, it sounds like you have a great job - why risk it?

My 2¢

 

[snccoulter]

Talk to the commander/head hog of the facility he/she has ultimate jurisdiction over that facility. If he/she wants to allow it it can be done. And if there is an issue it is their decusion. Then he/she can answer as to why it was allowed. to follow up the only reason beer you are told you can only brew so much and you cant give it away is the OLD TAX MAN wants his cut and on a militaty reservation/diplomatic property there is no taxes collected. So it should be a mute point while you are not in america.

On a side note who knows what is traditionally in the ball on top of the flag pole???

 

[finley]

I think this might be one of the few situations that the ATF still cares about alcohol (TTF cares about internal licensing and taxes, ATF is international). When you begin selling it, you have to be really careful on where you would be travelling with it. If you brew it on your residence, put it in your car, and then sell it at the embassy, you crossed country lines. This might be perceived as smuggling.

Once you start selling anything you are taking part in business transactions that are outside of your diplomatic immunity, irregardless of whether it is alcohol or not. Probably not enough to get you in real trouble, but enough to make a headache for you.

Also, If we had a diplomat in the US who was selling cocaine in the embassy, and could get it because it was legal in his country, there might be some grumbling.

 

[snccoulter]

Actuall the ATF is not international it is a US federal agency and has jusisdiction only over us sovern teritory. but you are right they may get pissy but then they may not since a embasey is sovern teritory. As i said earlier it is all a TAX issue and there is a good chance they wont care with him being over seas. what is the wost that can happen if you ask? be told no? the answer is always no if you dont ask.... ultimatly what ever happens on the reservation is up to the commander when it comes to the military on the yard... i have been in long enough to see a lot cases that would be handled one way for civillians and a completly diffrent for military. The commander can take jursidiction over just about anything. then it can go anywhere from a hey maby we sould not do this again to a full fledge trial. So i say talk to the commander and legal on the yard to get a good read...

 

[Diaperload]

But like I said your life fascinates me, but if the Military Attaches are allowed to drink, are the marine guards?

As a former Marine Security Guard, I can attest that the Marines are allowed to drink. I never drank so much in my entire life. My life was work a shift, do some drills (bomb search, intruder drill), do administrative stuff (clean up, maintain weapons), drink, chase women.

Of course, when a Marine screws up (they often do) and drinks too much, makes a fool out of himself, gets in trouble for whatever reason the detachment commander (usually E-6 or E-7, staff sergeant or gunnery sergeant) will close the Marine bar (every Marine detachment has one) for a set amount of time. While I was in Paris, our bar was shut down 3 or 4 times. Usually for 3-5 days. That didn't stop us from going out in town and drinking in the bars.

 

[davefleck]

Just have the highest pay grade official around pitch your yeast. Then its his problem.

 

[statu]

Selling it for cost to the people that share the DPO/pouch privilege then you are ok. You can not use the DPO/pouch for business purposes. The gov't covers the extra cost from the states (New York AE, Miami AA, San Francisco AP) to your Post.

 

[Varmintman]

Talk to the commander/head hog of the facility he/she has ultimate jurisdiction over that facility. If he/she wants to allow it it can be done. And if there is an issue it is their decusion. Then he/she can answer as to why it was allowed. to follow up the only reason beer you are told you can only brew so much and you cant give it away is the OLD TAX MAN wants his cut and on a militaty reservation/diplomatic property there is no taxes collected. So it should be a mute point while you are not in america.

On a side note who knows what is traditionally in the ball on top of the flag pole???

LOL it has been over 20 years but I think it was a set of orders and a 45 bullet. Man it has been a LOOOONG time

To the OP. It would seem to me that if you include your chain of command and they are fine with it then the burden rests on them. Since I was not a officer but enlisted though I am not sure how that works though. For instance I was a driver for my CO in Germany. I asked him if I could take his jeep while we were downrange to go and get some beer. I asked this in front of the First Sargent and First Louie. He laughed and said go ahead and so I did. I never got in trouble for it because he said it was OK.

 

[Revvy]

Guys, this threads been dead 2 years......Bob has long moved on, he hasn't been on hbt in awhile......

 

[Varmintman]

Oh heck I did not look at the dates. Perhaps he ended up in jail :cross:

 

[passedpawn]

I understand the whole host country rules thing. Libya has plenty for us and if we break them they won't hesitate to PNG us. That said, diplomats consumption of alcohol isn't prohibited by their rules. Hell, we had four open bars at the 4th of July event in which the highest levels of Libyan government were invited.

Oh heck I did not look at the dates. Perhaps he ended up in jail :cross:

Or worse! Man, I hope all is well with Brewer_Bob.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-death-US-ambassador-killed-attack-Libya.html