Fast Souring - Modern Methods

[RPh_Guy]

should I do something different because OYL-605 also includes L.brevis?

Be sure to follow good cleaning practices after use.

Omega previously recommended whipping up a starter but didn't see that instruction when I visited their OYL-605 product page.

I recommend a starter.

any thoughts if Kveik would be suitable for Fruited Sour?

I don't see why not. I'm my experience it lends a fresh orange juice and other marmalade flavor.

Happy brewing!

 

[The M]

What flavor sour are you brewing ?

My initial plan was to use raspberries and black cherries

 

[The M]

Yes. That’s my favorite commercial quick sour blend. that said it really doesn’t provide much difference in overall flavor that just throwing in 3 probiotic pills. I think 605 brings me to 3.1 ph and Renewal Life Ultra Flora probiotic pills brings me 3.2/3.3. For the cost savings and extremely similar flavor profile, I’ve stopped buying 605

Thx for your reply bro. This is actually what I was wondering, does L.brevis bring anything new to the table compared to L. plantarum. And you're right about the costs. 605 is quite expensive compared to the probiotic pills containing L. plantarum. I have to reconsider this one

 

[The M]

Be sure to follow good cleaning practices after use.

Thx for your input too RPh_Guy. I was wondering this one also. I don't have any experience brewing with L.brevis. Is L.brevis more trickier to clean? Since it's lacto bug I presume that my normal cleaning practices after brewing with L. plantarum are sufficent?

I recommend a starter.

Will do that if I decide to go with 605

I don't see why not. I'm my experience it lends a fresh orange juice and other marmalade flavor.

Happy brewing!

Yep, you're right about the taste profile there. I usually get heavy orange taste especially when fermenting around 90f

 

[RPh_Guy]

Is L.brevis more trickier to clean?

... I only mention that because there's theoretically a higher risk of contaminating future brews because in general L. brevis is more hop tolerant compared to the usual L. plantarum strains we use. The risk would still be very low in my opinion based on the fact that this particular brevis strain doesn't seem to be very hop-tolerant and it's also not very active at normal brewing temperatures. Plus, yes, normal/good cleaning practices will remove it (I suggest a soak in a warm percabonate solution followed by an acid rinse as a normal cleaning method).
Cheers

 

[RCope]

I've made 6 co-sours, all fruited and they all came out great. Now I'd like to make a fruited Sour IPA. Will my usual technique (6 L. plantarum capsules and 4 Good Belly shots) sour enough overnight to do a pseudo-kettle sour? My plan would be to sour overnight at 95ish deg, then heat to 185, add WP hops and then chill and pitch US-05 or an equivalent liquid yeast.

My research has mentioned using OYL-605 for that overnight souring step...

 

[RPh_Guy]

My plan would be to sour overnight at 95ish deg, then heat to 185, add WP hops and then chill and pitch US-05 or an equivalent liquid yeast.

You could take this as an opportunity to try a hop tea and/or large dry hop charge, added as fermentation is near finishing. Either OYL-605 or the probiotics/Good Belly are fine as long as there are no hops during the souring phase.

 

[RCope]

Thanks...I already do a standard hop tea for a bit of bittering, and a small (2 oz) dry hop. Both after fermentation is complete. Neither add the hop presence that I want with a sour IPA. But thanks for the confirmation that my usual L. plantarum addition will work as well as OYL-605 .

 

[Sc0ttyt^]

Fermenting my first Modern Fast & Funky Sour. Thanks RPh_Guy for what you have started here and on your wiki. 70/30 2-row/wheat at 145°F for 1 hr. 1.039 OG with WY3711 French Saison and WY5526 Lambicus fermenting at 68°F. Both with good active starters. I was going to hold off on the glucoamylase since WY3711 is supposed to be an aggressively diastatic strain, but decided to add a small dose, just in case, along with the Swanson lacto starter after about 24hrs at 1.028 SG (near 30% expected attenuation). Now ramping to 72°F over 3 days, and I plan to dry hop or hop tea w/ 1oz of El Dorado. I do have a couple process questions.

It is suggested to ferment at 65°F or higher, but I suspect that is just to keep the lacto active. I am curious what temps people prefer.

Also, I thought the vast majority of conversion happens within the first 20-30 minutes of the mash. Does the 2 hour mash make an impact on fermentability, even when already mashing very low?

 

[RPh_Guy]

It is suggested to ferment at 65°F or higher, but I suspect that is just to keep the lacto active. I am curious what temps people prefer

Right, the Lacto needs to be warm enough to sour quickly. The ideal temp will vary by the yeast(s). I have the most experience with 644 where I like to start it at 68°F and allow it to free rise. It gets up to about 73–74. Sorry I don't have any experience with 3711.

Does the 2 hour mash make an impact on fermentability, even when already mashing very low?

Yes. How? Limit dextrinase activity in the mash is highly correlated with fermentability. Most of the limit dextrinase is bound to an inhibitor protein which inhibits the activity but also prevents thermodegradation of the enzyme. The inhibitor protein is degraded slowly, releasing more of the limit dextrinase over time, allowing it to slowly increase fermentability. Fermentability tends to plateau around 2–3 hours under low temp conditions. However, mashing longer than 2 hours should generally be avoided due to excessive protein degradation (and oxidation, if you're trying to prevent that).

Hope it turns out well, please let us know!

 

[Sc0ttyt^]

Very interesting! I will keep that in mind for the next batch.

Also, I can't wait to try out WLP644. It sounds like the ideal sacc for what I want in most of my sours.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Has anyone here tried a Lichtenhainer using this method? I'm thinking about giving one a go this weekend - 1/3 each wheat malt, smoked malt and pils to 1.038; co-pitch Lacto plantarum and WLP001 then add hop tea when pH is around 3.8 (1g/L of perle hops boiled for 20 mins). I'm also toying with the idea of using half the hops in a hop tea and half as a dry hop.

 

[umrmepe]

I have a split batch of Lichtenhainer fermenting now. One 2.75 gallon batch is using Wyeast 1007 and Wyeast 5335 (co-pitched), and the other 2.75 gallon batch is using Lallemand Philly Sour.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I made the Lichtenhainer from the post above. pH was halted at 3.7 with the hops all added as a 20 minute hop tea (boiled in 2L of reserved/frozen wort). It's a really refreshing beer - great for the start of summer - but I think I'd back off the hops a bit next time. There's a lot of hop flavour and aroma which is quite pleasant, but masks the smokiness a bit.

 

[umrmepe]

Update on Lichtenhainer split batch

Co-pitch of Wyeast 1007 & 5335: pH 4.39 at 68 degrees, SG 1.015, no sour taste more of a yeast taste, airlock activity very slow

Philly Sour: pH 3.29 at 71 degrees, SG 1.018, slight sour taste, airlock activity very slow

 

[RPh_Guy]

Wyesst 5335 is not useful for co-souring.

 

[umrmepe]

Thanks for the info RPh_Guy. I have been increasing the fermentation temperature daily for this batch to see if I can get a better sour profile. I decided to try this since the Wyeast website indicated it could tolerate wort with a very low hopping rate.

 

[Sc0ttyt^]

Sour Brett Saison Update: I split the 1oz El Dorado into 1/2oz hop tea, boiled for 5min, and 1/2oz dry hop addition both added after 9 days. I then pulled the dry hops after 2 days before transferred 3 gallons to rest on 1lb pitted sour cherries and 2lbs quartered pluots. The remaining beer was kegged as-is. My first experience with WY3711, and I was surprised by how much character this yeast contributed. I'm not sure lambicus was ideal for the unfruited saison, but overall I was very pleased with both. Strong sourness but not overpowering. I'll be sure to add some Calcium Carbonate, now that I have some, to the starter if I want it extra sour, but it doesn't seem necessary to achieve what I wanted.

 

[Brewer dad]

I think I may know the answer already, but I’ll ask just in case. For a fast and funky beer(Brett and Sac co pitched), I have previously made two separate starters of each. Generally Brett roughly a week out and then Sac a couple of days. I’ve only one stir plate at the moment so I have dedicated that and the flask to Brett and done the rest in a mason jar.

It’s worked, but some of the yeast I’m looking at using hasn’t been used in a while. I’m wondering if I could pitch the Sac into the Brett starter after it’s been going a couple of days to give it the benefit of the stir plate. For reference in this instance I’ll be using WY5526 and WLP001, with gluco and then l. Planterum after 36 hrs. Obviously 001 doesn’t have distinctive character to maintain, I’m most interested in it to help attenuate quickly and let the bugs make the flavor.

Honestly I suspect I’m trying to have my cake and eat it too, but thought I’d ask. Of course pitching two separate strong starters is most ideal. But if it were possible I’d think this method would be the place. Moderate gravity, starter(s), and gluco help immensely. I imagine my idea is capable of the task, however I’m just unsure if it could do it consistently and reliably.

 

[Dgallo]

I think I may know the answer already, but I’ll ask just in case. For a fast and funky beer(Brett and Sac co pitched), I have previously made two separate starters of each. Generally Brett roughly a week out and then Sac a couple of days. I’ve only one stir plate at the moment so I have dedicated that and the flask to Brett and done the rest in a mason jar.

It’s worked, but some of the yeast I’m looking at using hasn’t been used in a while. I’m wondering if I could pitch the Sac into the Brett starter after it’s been going a couple of days to give it the benefit of the stir plate. For reference in this instance I’ll be using WY5526 and WLP001, with gluco and then l. Planterum after 36 hrs. Obviously 001 doesn’t have distinctive character to maintain, I’m most interested in it to help attenuate quickly and let the bugs make the flavor.

Honestly I suspect I’m trying to have my cake and eat it too, but thought I’d ask. Of course pitching two separate strong starters is most ideal. But if it were possible I’d think this method would be the place. Moderate gravity, starter(s), and gluco help immensely. I imagine my idea is capable of the task, however I’m just unsure if it could do it consistently and reliably.

There is no problem with what you want to do but I would personally not advise it if you genuinely want a fast turn around.

For speed (2 months or a little less) you really want a high cell count for your Brett pitch. If using 1 starter, the sac will end up out competing the Brett strain and the cell count of your Brett will be lower, increasing your ferment/conditioning time.

if time is not an issue then it’s all good. Brett will always eventually do what it will do regardless of the cell count

 

[RPh_Guy]

@Brewer dad
I would not mix the starters under any circumstance. As @Dgallo mentioned, I would have concerns about competition, and also acetic acid (very inhibitory).

My suggestion is that whenever your Brettanomyces starter is ready, just take it off the stir plate and prop the Saccharomyces. A low Sacch count shouldn't be a big issue; pitching lots of active Brett is more important.

The fast & funky method is still very experimental, so there is plenty of guesswork involved at this point.

 

[Brewer dad]

That all makes sense, thanks guys!

 

[OldDogBrewing]

So I've been using those probiotics capsules for a while to create L. Plantarum starters for souring, but I haven't been that happy lately, maybe I got a bad batch or whatever, so I would like to try other sources, like yogurt, kefir and similar fermented products, how should I proceed? Chuck a spoonful into my wort? Make a starter with a spoonful of it? Or it's done in another way?

 

[JAReeves]

I have had decent success with the oat-based GoodBelly probiotic shots. 1-2 shots works fine, you could go the full pint/quart also, probably not going to hurt anything.

 

[Jag75]

I use the Goodbelly juice . Works well . I add it on day 2 of fermentation.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

I don't have access to GoodBelly here in Europe, I understand it's a non diary probiotic? I could look for similar products but I'm afraid here in Spain most probiotics are dairy based, and I fear any dairy will go rancid and ruin the beer

 

[JAReeves]

I don't have access to GoodBelly here in Europe, I understand it's a non diary probiotic? I could look for similar products but I'm afraid here in Spain most probiotics are dairy based, and I fear any dairy will go rancid and ruin the beer

You could use the dairy-based probiotic to create a starter, decant the yeast, make another starter, and so on to get pure yeast and a very diluted to non-existent dairy profile. I haven't done it myself, but it was suggested to me as a way to get around the lactose allergy that I have. Using GoodBelly or doing long-term souring turned out to be the easier solution for me, but it was nice to have options.

 

[RPh_Guy]

@OldDogBrewing
I'm not aware of any major yogurt brands that contain L. plantarum.

The key is to get a product that's been kept refrigerated so that the cells are still viable. You could try another probiotic, Lallemand WildBrew Sour Pitch, OYL-605, TYB Lacto blend, or some other commercial product available in your location.

You may also wish to keep a Lacto starter going continuously if it is difficult to find the bacteria.

Salud

 

[JAReeves]

Another option is if you have a good sourdough starter for bread, you can pitch that as well.

 

[Beer666]

No boil brett sour saison

Made a sour Saison that i am really happy with. Been making lots of dark sours so its really nice to brew something lighter again. Dry hopped before Christmas intending to drink then but ended up leaving it on the hops for 10 weeks in the garage. No grassy flavours, little peppery, quite a lot of funk, smells like an old beer, complex, crisp, not too much acidity which i prefer and very drinkable. Have my friend coming over later who brought some Kernel foeder beers over last week so will be interesting to hear his opinion.



2kg chevalier
1kg pilsner
1kf wheat malt
1kg flaked oats

Mashed at 65c
Mashout 75c

OG 1044
FG 1000
ABV 5.80%


I pitched the lallemand farmhouse saison with slurry containg the beersel brett blend and lacto and 2ml of gluco. Added 20g of oak in primary then racked. Later added 75g of citra dry hop. Have to find my ph meter and see what it is as this is a nice balance and easy to drink.

Going to do this again with the saison yeast and a starter i made from my solera. I might boil it this time so it clears faster and add a few IBU's. If its not sour i will brew another one and blend it. Blended 2 sour beers recently and its really improved the base beer.

 

[Miraculix]

Another option is if you have a good sourdough starter for bread, you can pitch that as well.

Not for the type of sour this thread is about. This method here uses specific strains that are really sensitive to hops. As soon as other strains are introduced, this method here does not work any more the way it is supposed to work.

 

[NitrogenWidget]

So I've been wanting to brew a certain sour ever since i had a caramelized pineapple sour brewed locally.
so the other day i mixed up some dry malt and calcium carbonate then opened up 4 probiotic capsules into it as a starter.
well the wort soured.
really well.
I also cut up two whole pineapples into slices and grilled them then froze for the secondary. thinking a lb a gallon.
just brewed up a few gallons of 50/50 2-row/wheat as a test batch.
going with Voss Kveik yeast.
my hop of choice to stop the souring when it's time will be 1oz of wakatu which i've used before and imparts a hint of lime flavor and aroma.

i think i'll make beer. lol.
first sour so not sure how it will turn out.

 

[JeffersonStateBrewing]

Keep us posted. I have 10 pounds of pineapple in the freezer for a sour. Never thought to bbq the pineapple. I am really curious to know how yours turns out.

Let us know about the yeast as well.

Sounds delicious!

 

[NitrogenWidget]

Keep us posted. I have 10 pounds of pineapple in the freezer for a sour. Never thought to bbq the pineapple. I am really curious to know how yours turns out.

Let us know about the year as well.

Sounds delicious!

I have to say pineapple caramelized on the grill is amazing. so caramelly luscious.

had to stop myself from eating it.
so yeah i'll be back with results

 

[NitrogenWidget]

So I've been wanting to brew a certain sour ever since i had a caramelized pineapple sour brewed locally.
so the other day i mixed up some dry malt and calcium carbonate then opened up 4 probiotic capsules into it as a starter.
well the wort soured.
really well.
I also cut up two whole pineapples into slices and grilled them then froze for the secondary. thinking a lb a gallon.
just brewed up a few gallons of 50/50 2-row/wheat as a test batch.
going with Voss Kveik yeast.
my hop of choice to stop the souring when it's time will be 1oz of wakatu which i've used before and imparts a hint of lime flavor and aroma.

i think i'll make beer. lol.
first sour so not sure how it will turn out.

so beer came out to 1.025 OG. way off then i remembered wheat always seems to trip me up with OG. but i'm adding 2lb of pinapple puree so that will bring the ABV up a little.

brewed wed night.
fermented high 80's.
by friday morning fermentation has stopped and yeast is dropping.
FG is 1.004 and sample is a little sour and bready.
I expect the probiotics will take longer than the Voss yeast.
i'll move to a secondary tonight, harvest yeast for later, and add puree in a bag then just let it ride until it's where i want it sour wise then add hops.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Be aware that pineapple contains papain, an enzyme that degrades proteins (i.e. reduces foam), and that unpasteurized fruit contains wild microbes.

 

[NitrogenWidget]

Be aware that pineapple contains papain, an enzyme that degrades proteins (i.e. reduces foam), and that unpasteurized fruit contains wild microbes.

maybe i shouldn't of taken the quick oats out.
oh well it's only a test batch.

as for the unpasteurized part, i did grill the slices of pineapple until they started to char.

normally i only see an infection if i forget about the fact the fruit is in there.
If I yank it as soon as fermentation is done then keg/bottle i haven't had any issues.

even if something does form on top, I've still kegged it and it tasted great.

 

[tizoc]

Fermentis just released a dried brettanomyces bruxellenesis SafBrew™ BR-8

 

[NitrogenWidget]

ok. so it's sour.
but the pineapple flavor is non-existent.
i used 2 1/2lbs to 2ish gallons of beer and nada.
aroma is there though.
next time i'll damn the pineapples to hell on the grill to get a good caramelized flavor then freeze and just toss in the secondary.
when i pureed i put in a bag and it was nothing but mush when i pulled it out.
probably dissolved into juice and fermented out.

 

[Beer666]

Had some success souring a 15 IBU wort with a starter from my solera. Lots of different Gueuze dregs. Its not in your face but mildly acidic. Complex flavour and you get to drink the Gueuze. I am going to play about with the culture some more. Also works well with just a dry hop or a tea. Goes down to 1002 so handy if you dont have any gluco.