Fast Souring - Modern Methods

[tizoc]

First co-fermented sour (Swanson's & US-05) is ready. Hibiscus & Passionfruit puree - super tasty. It's not quite a sour/tart as we'd like, but we'll settle that on the next go around. I used a little too much lactic acid at knockout, and I think the Hibiscus itself drops the pH some, so it got down in the 3.2 or so range and just wasn't very tart. Anyway, my wife wanted a beer that looked like a jewel - I think we accomplished that There's a little condensation in the pic (and I suck at photography to boot) - it's actually brilliantly clear. Thanks for all of the discussion everyone - especially RPh

Hey @Dustin_J, do you remember how much hibiscus did you use? and when did you add it? kettle? fermenter?

I plan to want to brew a Gose with hibiscus, but I for the hibiscus additions I am bit lost.

 

[Dustin_J]

Hey @Dustin_J, to you remember how much hibiscus did you use? and when did you add it? kettle? fermenter?

I plan to want to brew a Gose with hibiscus, but I for the hibiscus additions I am bit lost.

Yessir! 5oz dried hibiscus flowers seems to be about right. I've done the additions 3 different ways so far:
1) 3 oz hibiscus at flameout, with another 2 oz as a "dry hop" (or "dry-biscus " ) in fermenter after terminal gravity reached.
2) 5 oz hibiscus (in small mesh bag) steeped in ~40oz of boiled/slightly cooled (~170F) water - liquid added to fermenter right about at terminal gravity along with fruit puree. Also used water with a little higher residual alkalinity to increase buffering a touch, as described here.
3) 5 oz hibiscus (in small mesh bag) steeped in ~40oz of boiled/slightly cooled (~170F) water - liquid added to fermenter with ~4-5 gravity points left along with fruit puree.

Method 1 wasn't great, as the hibiscus drops the pH a few tenths of a point. That meant a lower knockout pH, and bit less sourness/acidity created by the lacto. The hibiscus flavor was still nice, though. Methods 2 and 3 were very similar, but method 2 is the winner so far. Waiting to add the hibiscus (and the passionfruit puree, which also drops pH a bit) until right about when final gravity is hit and the beer pH is relatively stable seems to allow for a little more lactic acidity and a slightly lower finished beer pH. The wife likes it almost bracingly sour, though, so YMMV.

 

[tizoc]

Thank you. For the hibiscus-tea methods, for how long do you steep?

 

[Dustin_J]

Thank you. For the hibiscus-tea methods, for how long do you steep?

Probably 10 minutes or so, but I stir/lightly press the bag the whole time. It gets very dark red/purple in that time

 

[ShaLaH]

I've only done co-sours or post-sours using kveik yeast to very good results. Since Kveiks like temps in the 90's (F) it has been very ease to do. I'm planning on doing a post-sour with non-kveik yeast and am confused about pitch temps. If I pitch an ale yeast at 66 (F) to give it a head start for 1-2 days, do I then pitch the Lacto in at 66 (F)? I was under the impression that Lacto works effectively over 90F? I don't want to raise the temp as the ale yeast will throw off some off flavors.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Lacto works effectively over 90F?

L. plantarum is effective at fast souring down to around 65°F.

 

[ShaLaH]

L. plantarum is effective at fast souring down to around 65°F.

You don't say? Well that's fantastic news. Not sure where I got that info from. thanks!

 

[The M]

Back with the co-pitching after few sours brewed with Philly Sour. Anyone done co-pitching with OYL-605 Lactobacillus Blend? Noticed that OYL-605 includes both L. plantarum and brevis. My previous co-pitched beers were solely brewed with L. plantarum so should I do something different because OYL-605 also includes L.brevis? Omega previously recommended whipping up a starter but didn't see that instruction when I visited their OYL-605 product page. Thinking about using Voss Kveik with this one...any thoughts if Kveik would be suitable for Fruited Sour? I've brewed bunch of other beers (mostly ales) with Kveik and it usually drops PH more than typical ale yeast

 

[Jag75]

Back with the co-pitching after few sours brewed with Philly Sour. Anyone done co-pitching with OYL-605 Lactobacillus Blend? Noticed that OYL-605 includes both L. plantarum and brevis. My previous co-pitched beers were solely brewed with L. plantarum so should I do something different because OYL-605 also includes L.brevis? Omega previously recommended whipping up a starter but didn't see that instruction when I visited their OYL-605 product page. Thinking about using Voss Kveik with this one...any thoughts if Kveik would be suitable for Fruited Sour? I've brewed bunch of other beers (mostly ales) with Kveik and it usually drops PH more than typical ale yeast

What flavor sour are you brewing ?

 

[Dgallo]

Back with the co-pitching after few sours brewed with Philly Sour. Anyone done co-pitching with OYL-605 Lactobacillus Blend? Noticed that OYL-605 includes both L. plantarum and brevis. My previous co-pitched beers were solely brewed with L. plantarum so should I do something different because OYL-605 also includes L.brevis? Omega previously recommended whipping up a starter but didn't see that instruction when I visited their OYL-605 product page. Thinking about using Voss Kveik with this one...any thoughts if Kveik would be suitable for Fruited Sour? I've brewed bunch of other beers (mostly ales) with Kveik and it usually drops PH more than typical ale yeast

Yes. That’s my favorite commercial quick sour blend. that said it really doesn’t provide much difference in overall flavor that just throwing in 3 probiotic pills. I think 605 brings me to 3.1 ph and Renewal Life Ultra Flora probiotic pills brings me 3.2/3.3. For the cost savings and extremely similar flavor profile, I’ve stopped buying 605

 

[RPh_Guy]

should I do something different because OYL-605 also includes L.brevis?

Be sure to follow good cleaning practices after use.

Omega previously recommended whipping up a starter but didn't see that instruction when I visited their OYL-605 product page.

I recommend a starter.

any thoughts if Kveik would be suitable for Fruited Sour?

I don't see why not. I'm my experience it lends a fresh orange juice and other marmalade flavor.

Happy brewing!

 

[The M]

What flavor sour are you brewing ?

My initial plan was to use raspberries and black cherries

 

[The M]

Yes. That’s my favorite commercial quick sour blend. that said it really doesn’t provide much difference in overall flavor that just throwing in 3 probiotic pills. I think 605 brings me to 3.1 ph and Renewal Life Ultra Flora probiotic pills brings me 3.2/3.3. For the cost savings and extremely similar flavor profile, I’ve stopped buying 605

Thx for your reply bro. This is actually what I was wondering, does L.brevis bring anything new to the table compared to L. plantarum. And you're right about the costs. 605 is quite expensive compared to the probiotic pills containing L. plantarum. I have to reconsider this one

 

[The M]

Be sure to follow good cleaning practices after use.

Thx for your input too RPh_Guy. I was wondering this one also. I don't have any experience brewing with L.brevis. Is L.brevis more trickier to clean? Since it's lacto bug I presume that my normal cleaning practices after brewing with L. plantarum are sufficent?

I recommend a starter.

Will do that if I decide to go with 605

I don't see why not. I'm my experience it lends a fresh orange juice and other marmalade flavor.

Happy brewing!

Yep, you're right about the taste profile there. I usually get heavy orange taste especially when fermenting around 90f

 

[RPh_Guy]

Is L.brevis more trickier to clean?

... I only mention that because there's theoretically a higher risk of contaminating future brews because in general L. brevis is more hop tolerant compared to the usual L. plantarum strains we use. The risk would still be very low in my opinion based on the fact that this particular brevis strain doesn't seem to be very hop-tolerant and it's also not very active at normal brewing temperatures. Plus, yes, normal/good cleaning practices will remove it (I suggest a soak in a warm percabonate solution followed by an acid rinse as a normal cleaning method).
Cheers

 

[RCope]

I've made 6 co-sours, all fruited and they all came out great. Now I'd like to make a fruited Sour IPA. Will my usual technique (6 L. plantarum capsules and 4 Good Belly shots) sour enough overnight to do a pseudo-kettle sour? My plan would be to sour overnight at 95ish deg, then heat to 185, add WP hops and then chill and pitch US-05 or an equivalent liquid yeast.

My research has mentioned using OYL-605 for that overnight souring step...

 

[RPh_Guy]

My plan would be to sour overnight at 95ish deg, then heat to 185, add WP hops and then chill and pitch US-05 or an equivalent liquid yeast.

You could take this as an opportunity to try a hop tea and/or large dry hop charge, added as fermentation is near finishing. Either OYL-605 or the probiotics/Good Belly are fine as long as there are no hops during the souring phase.

 

[RCope]

Thanks...I already do a standard hop tea for a bit of bittering, and a small (2 oz) dry hop. Both after fermentation is complete. Neither add the hop presence that I want with a sour IPA. But thanks for the confirmation that my usual L. plantarum addition will work as well as OYL-605 .

 

[Sc0ttyt^]

Fermenting my first Modern Fast & Funky Sour. Thanks RPh_Guy for what you have started here and on your wiki. 70/30 2-row/wheat at 145°F for 1 hr. 1.039 OG with WY3711 French Saison and WY5526 Lambicus fermenting at 68°F. Both with good active starters. I was going to hold off on the glucoamylase since WY3711 is supposed to be an aggressively diastatic strain, but decided to add a small dose, just in case, along with the Swanson lacto starter after about 24hrs at 1.028 SG (near 30% expected attenuation). Now ramping to 72°F over 3 days, and I plan to dry hop or hop tea w/ 1oz of El Dorado. I do have a couple process questions.

It is suggested to ferment at 65°F or higher, but I suspect that is just to keep the lacto active. I am curious what temps people prefer.

Also, I thought the vast majority of conversion happens within the first 20-30 minutes of the mash. Does the 2 hour mash make an impact on fermentability, even when already mashing very low?

 

[RPh_Guy]

It is suggested to ferment at 65°F or higher, but I suspect that is just to keep the lacto active. I am curious what temps people prefer

Right, the Lacto needs to be warm enough to sour quickly. The ideal temp will vary by the yeast(s). I have the most experience with 644 where I like to start it at 68°F and allow it to free rise. It gets up to about 73–74. Sorry I don't have any experience with 3711.

Does the 2 hour mash make an impact on fermentability, even when already mashing very low?

Yes. How? Limit dextrinase activity in the mash is highly correlated with fermentability. Most of the limit dextrinase is bound to an inhibitor protein which inhibits the activity but also prevents thermodegradation of the enzyme. The inhibitor protein is degraded slowly, releasing more of the limit dextrinase over time, allowing it to slowly increase fermentability. Fermentability tends to plateau around 2–3 hours under low temp conditions. However, mashing longer than 2 hours should generally be avoided due to excessive protein degradation (and oxidation, if you're trying to prevent that).

Hope it turns out well, please let us know!

 

[Sc0ttyt^]

Very interesting! I will keep that in mind for the next batch.

Also, I can't wait to try out WLP644. It sounds like the ideal sacc for what I want in most of my sours.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Has anyone here tried a Lichtenhainer using this method? I'm thinking about giving one a go this weekend - 1/3 each wheat malt, smoked malt and pils to 1.038; co-pitch Lacto plantarum and WLP001 then add hop tea when pH is around 3.8 (1g/L of perle hops boiled for 20 mins). I'm also toying with the idea of using half the hops in a hop tea and half as a dry hop.

 

[umrmepe]

I have a split batch of Lichtenhainer fermenting now. One 2.75 gallon batch is using Wyeast 1007 and Wyeast 5335 (co-pitched), and the other 2.75 gallon batch is using Lallemand Philly Sour.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I made the Lichtenhainer from the post above. pH was halted at 3.7 with the hops all added as a 20 minute hop tea (boiled in 2L of reserved/frozen wort). It's a really refreshing beer - great for the start of summer - but I think I'd back off the hops a bit next time. There's a lot of hop flavour and aroma which is quite pleasant, but masks the smokiness a bit.

 

[umrmepe]

Update on Lichtenhainer split batch

Co-pitch of Wyeast 1007 & 5335: pH 4.39 at 68 degrees, SG 1.015, no sour taste more of a yeast taste, airlock activity very slow

Philly Sour: pH 3.29 at 71 degrees, SG 1.018, slight sour taste, airlock activity very slow

 

[RPh_Guy]

Wyesst 5335 is not useful for co-souring.

 

[umrmepe]

Thanks for the info RPh_Guy. I have been increasing the fermentation temperature daily for this batch to see if I can get a better sour profile. I decided to try this since the Wyeast website indicated it could tolerate wort with a very low hopping rate.

 

[Sc0ttyt^]

Sour Brett Saison Update: I split the 1oz El Dorado into 1/2oz hop tea, boiled for 5min, and 1/2oz dry hop addition both added after 9 days. I then pulled the dry hops after 2 days before transferred 3 gallons to rest on 1lb pitted sour cherries and 2lbs quartered pluots. The remaining beer was kegged as-is. My first experience with WY3711, and I was surprised by how much character this yeast contributed. I'm not sure lambicus was ideal for the unfruited saison, but overall I was very pleased with both. Strong sourness but not overpowering. I'll be sure to add some Calcium Carbonate, now that I have some, to the starter if I want it extra sour, but it doesn't seem necessary to achieve what I wanted.

 

[Brewer dad]

I think I may know the answer already, but I’ll ask just in case. For a fast and funky beer(Brett and Sac co pitched), I have previously made two separate starters of each. Generally Brett roughly a week out and then Sac a couple of days. I’ve only one stir plate at the moment so I have dedicated that and the flask to Brett and done the rest in a mason jar.

It’s worked, but some of the yeast I’m looking at using hasn’t been used in a while. I’m wondering if I could pitch the Sac into the Brett starter after it’s been going a couple of days to give it the benefit of the stir plate. For reference in this instance I’ll be using WY5526 and WLP001, with gluco and then l. Planterum after 36 hrs. Obviously 001 doesn’t have distinctive character to maintain, I’m most interested in it to help attenuate quickly and let the bugs make the flavor.

Honestly I suspect I’m trying to have my cake and eat it too, but thought I’d ask. Of course pitching two separate strong starters is most ideal. But if it were possible I’d think this method would be the place. Moderate gravity, starter(s), and gluco help immensely. I imagine my idea is capable of the task, however I’m just unsure if it could do it consistently and reliably.

 

[Dgallo]

I think I may know the answer already, but I’ll ask just in case. For a fast and funky beer(Brett and Sac co pitched), I have previously made two separate starters of each. Generally Brett roughly a week out and then Sac a couple of days. I’ve only one stir plate at the moment so I have dedicated that and the flask to Brett and done the rest in a mason jar.

It’s worked, but some of the yeast I’m looking at using hasn’t been used in a while. I’m wondering if I could pitch the Sac into the Brett starter after it’s been going a couple of days to give it the benefit of the stir plate. For reference in this instance I’ll be using WY5526 and WLP001, with gluco and then l. Planterum after 36 hrs. Obviously 001 doesn’t have distinctive character to maintain, I’m most interested in it to help attenuate quickly and let the bugs make the flavor.

Honestly I suspect I’m trying to have my cake and eat it too, but thought I’d ask. Of course pitching two separate strong starters is most ideal. But if it were possible I’d think this method would be the place. Moderate gravity, starter(s), and gluco help immensely. I imagine my idea is capable of the task, however I’m just unsure if it could do it consistently and reliably.

There is no problem with what you want to do but I would personally not advise it if you genuinely want a fast turn around.

For speed (2 months or a little less) you really want a high cell count for your Brett pitch. If using 1 starter, the sac will end up out competing the Brett strain and the cell count of your Brett will be lower, increasing your ferment/conditioning time.

if time is not an issue then it’s all good. Brett will always eventually do what it will do regardless of the cell count