Fast Souring - Modern Methods

[RPh_Guy]

@Brewer dad
I would not mix the starters under any circumstance. As @Dgallo mentioned, I would have concerns about competition, and also acetic acid (very inhibitory).

My suggestion is that whenever your Brettanomyces starter is ready, just take it off the stir plate and prop the Saccharomyces. A low Sacch count shouldn't be a big issue; pitching lots of active Brett is more important.

The fast & funky method is still very experimental, so there is plenty of guesswork involved at this point.

 

[Brewer dad]

That all makes sense, thanks guys!

 

[OldDogBrewing]

So I've been using those probiotics capsules for a while to create L. Plantarum starters for souring, but I haven't been that happy lately, maybe I got a bad batch or whatever, so I would like to try other sources, like yogurt, kefir and similar fermented products, how should I proceed? Chuck a spoonful into my wort? Make a starter with a spoonful of it? Or it's done in another way?

 

[JAReeves]

I have had decent success with the oat-based GoodBelly probiotic shots. 1-2 shots works fine, you could go the full pint/quart also, probably not going to hurt anything.

 

[Jag75]

I use the Goodbelly juice . Works well . I add it on day 2 of fermentation.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

I don't have access to GoodBelly here in Europe, I understand it's a non diary probiotic? I could look for similar products but I'm afraid here in Spain most probiotics are dairy based, and I fear any dairy will go rancid and ruin the beer

 

[JAReeves]

I don't have access to GoodBelly here in Europe, I understand it's a non diary probiotic? I could look for similar products but I'm afraid here in Spain most probiotics are dairy based, and I fear any dairy will go rancid and ruin the beer

You could use the dairy-based probiotic to create a starter, decant the yeast, make another starter, and so on to get pure yeast and a very diluted to non-existent dairy profile. I haven't done it myself, but it was suggested to me as a way to get around the lactose allergy that I have. Using GoodBelly or doing long-term souring turned out to be the easier solution for me, but it was nice to have options.

 

[RPh_Guy]

@OldDogBrewing
I'm not aware of any major yogurt brands that contain L. plantarum.

The key is to get a product that's been kept refrigerated so that the cells are still viable. You could try another probiotic, Lallemand WildBrew Sour Pitch, OYL-605, TYB Lacto blend, or some other commercial product available in your location.

You may also wish to keep a Lacto starter going continuously if it is difficult to find the bacteria.

Salud

 

[JAReeves]

Another option is if you have a good sourdough starter for bread, you can pitch that as well.

 

[Beer666]

No boil brett sour saison

Made a sour Saison that i am really happy with. Been making lots of dark sours so its really nice to brew something lighter again. Dry hopped before Christmas intending to drink then but ended up leaving it on the hops for 10 weeks in the garage. No grassy flavours, little peppery, quite a lot of funk, smells like an old beer, complex, crisp, not too much acidity which i prefer and very drinkable. Have my friend coming over later who brought some Kernel foeder beers over last week so will be interesting to hear his opinion.



2kg chevalier
1kg pilsner
1kf wheat malt
1kg flaked oats

Mashed at 65c
Mashout 75c

OG 1044
FG 1000
ABV 5.80%


I pitched the lallemand farmhouse saison with slurry containg the beersel brett blend and lacto and 2ml of gluco. Added 20g of oak in primary then racked. Later added 75g of citra dry hop. Have to find my ph meter and see what it is as this is a nice balance and easy to drink.

Going to do this again with the saison yeast and a starter i made from my solera. I might boil it this time so it clears faster and add a few IBU's. If its not sour i will brew another one and blend it. Blended 2 sour beers recently and its really improved the base beer.

 

[Miraculix]

Another option is if you have a good sourdough starter for bread, you can pitch that as well.

Not for the type of sour this thread is about. This method here uses specific strains that are really sensitive to hops. As soon as other strains are introduced, this method here does not work any more the way it is supposed to work.

 

[NitrogenWidget]

So I've been wanting to brew a certain sour ever since i had a caramelized pineapple sour brewed locally.
so the other day i mixed up some dry malt and calcium carbonate then opened up 4 probiotic capsules into it as a starter.
well the wort soured.
really well.
I also cut up two whole pineapples into slices and grilled them then froze for the secondary. thinking a lb a gallon.
just brewed up a few gallons of 50/50 2-row/wheat as a test batch.
going with Voss Kveik yeast.
my hop of choice to stop the souring when it's time will be 1oz of wakatu which i've used before and imparts a hint of lime flavor and aroma.

i think i'll make beer. lol.
first sour so not sure how it will turn out.

 

[JeffersonStateBrewing]

Keep us posted. I have 10 pounds of pineapple in the freezer for a sour. Never thought to bbq the pineapple. I am really curious to know how yours turns out.

Let us know about the yeast as well.

Sounds delicious!

 

[NitrogenWidget]

Keep us posted. I have 10 pounds of pineapple in the freezer for a sour. Never thought to bbq the pineapple. I am really curious to know how yours turns out.

Let us know about the year as well.

Sounds delicious!

I have to say pineapple caramelized on the grill is amazing. so caramelly luscious.

had to stop myself from eating it.
so yeah i'll be back with results

 

[NitrogenWidget]

So I've been wanting to brew a certain sour ever since i had a caramelized pineapple sour brewed locally.
so the other day i mixed up some dry malt and calcium carbonate then opened up 4 probiotic capsules into it as a starter.
well the wort soured.
really well.
I also cut up two whole pineapples into slices and grilled them then froze for the secondary. thinking a lb a gallon.
just brewed up a few gallons of 50/50 2-row/wheat as a test batch.
going with Voss Kveik yeast.
my hop of choice to stop the souring when it's time will be 1oz of wakatu which i've used before and imparts a hint of lime flavor and aroma.

i think i'll make beer. lol.
first sour so not sure how it will turn out.

so beer came out to 1.025 OG. way off then i remembered wheat always seems to trip me up with OG. but i'm adding 2lb of pinapple puree so that will bring the ABV up a little.

brewed wed night.
fermented high 80's.
by friday morning fermentation has stopped and yeast is dropping.
FG is 1.004 and sample is a little sour and bready.
I expect the probiotics will take longer than the Voss yeast.
i'll move to a secondary tonight, harvest yeast for later, and add puree in a bag then just let it ride until it's where i want it sour wise then add hops.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Be aware that pineapple contains papain, an enzyme that degrades proteins (i.e. reduces foam), and that unpasteurized fruit contains wild microbes.

 

[NitrogenWidget]

Be aware that pineapple contains papain, an enzyme that degrades proteins (i.e. reduces foam), and that unpasteurized fruit contains wild microbes.

maybe i shouldn't of taken the quick oats out.
oh well it's only a test batch.

as for the unpasteurized part, i did grill the slices of pineapple until they started to char.

normally i only see an infection if i forget about the fact the fruit is in there.
If I yank it as soon as fermentation is done then keg/bottle i haven't had any issues.

even if something does form on top, I've still kegged it and it tasted great.

 

[tizoc]

Fermentis just released a dried brettanomyces bruxellenesis SafBrew™ BR-8

 

[NitrogenWidget]

ok. so it's sour.
but the pineapple flavor is non-existent.
i used 2 1/2lbs to 2ish gallons of beer and nada.
aroma is there though.
next time i'll damn the pineapples to hell on the grill to get a good caramelized flavor then freeze and just toss in the secondary.
when i pureed i put in a bag and it was nothing but mush when i pulled it out.
probably dissolved into juice and fermented out.

 

[Beer666]

Had some success souring a 15 IBU wort with a starter from my solera. Lots of different Gueuze dregs. Its not in your face but mildly acidic. Complex flavour and you get to drink the Gueuze. I am going to play about with the culture some more. Also works well with just a dry hop or a tea. Goes down to 1002 so handy if you dont have any gluco.

 

[Beer666]

Fermentis just released a dried brettanomyces bruxellenesis SafBrew™ BR-8

Sounds interesting. Its meant for secondary or bottling. Will get some if its becomes available in smaller packs.

 

[Sc0ttyt^]

My latest sour brew:
4 lbs 2-Row
1.5 lbs Vienna
2 lbs White Wheat
Sach Trois, WY5112 Brett Brux from starters
12 drops of Brutzyme (amyloglucosidase, a-amylase, pullulanase and other dextrinases)
1 Swanson pill Lacto P. starter (1g/L chalk) 0.2L pitched at 24hr (50% AA)
Started at 67°F, rise 1°F/day until 72°F
5.7 gallon batch size (after starter pitches)

One issue, the first 20 hours (40% AA) of fermentation had no pressure relief so ester production may be suppressed. Sample taken after 7 days - 1.000 with a PH of 3.72. It seems the lacto P. does not reach terminal sourness with this method/organisms/temperature (neither good nor bad). I decided to add 0.5 lbs/gallon of frozen (pasteurized) raspberries which kicked the gravity up maybe 1.5 points. This fermentation took off. Note my graph does not display the -0.002 calibration offset for my Tilt. I'll see how things go, but I may keg this as early as day 14. Also, I am planning on adding 1oz of Hallertau Blanc hop tea at some point.

 

[Stas StoLat]

delete

 

[RPh_Guy]

I have a Sour Noir (Stout) Solera that I have been cycling since 2014. I was using a 50 gallon barrel and the project/experiment has to be taken a different direction for me, so have emptied the barrel into Carboys and will referment 15 gallons for a friend to play with, he wants to distill it. the other 35 gallons will be set aside for blending and refermenting. Roselare yeast was the base, but I have added dregs of Brett and every Gueuze that I enjoyed over the years. I will refermenting with different fruits and sharing with others that will also do the same.

It has been interesting to experience the changes over time. A couple of years ago it was more acidic than I liked, but it has mellowed with age and is now changed again. It has been a very nice experiment overall and one that I would encourage others to take on. If anyone is in Michigan and Detroit area, I would love to share or collab, just message me.

You probably want to start your own thread. This has little to do with the topic here. Best of luck!

 

[Stas StoLat]

You probably want to start your own thread. This has little to do with the topic here. Best of luck!

Sorry, I will delete. I was just caught up in the spirit of it.

 

[Beer666]

I have a beer thas finished at 996. How is this even possible? Its carbing up at the moment so i have not had a glass yet. Follows the method in this thread. Fingers crossed it drinks well as i have pitched onto the yeast cake.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I have a beer thas finished at 996. How is this even possible? Its carbing up at the moment so i have not had a glass yet. Follows the method in this thread. Fingers crossed it drinks well as i have pitched onto the yeast cake.

A hydrometer measures density. Alcohol is less dense than water.

 

[Sc0ttyt^]

In addition, assertively diastaticus (STA-1+) yeast or the addition of exogenous enzymes, as outlined in this method, can easily result in a FG of 0.996. I state "assertively" because many STA-1+ yeasts will not approach critical attenuation in normal conditions. How active this gene is varies across strain and environmental conditions. The type and amount of exogenous enzymes also plays a role.

 

[ryking13]

I had Tiny Esses by Partisan Ales last night, really fun and good sour! I'm curious if anyone knows how they get that tangy sour flavor? It was probably the most sour beer I've had. Not puckering but def higher than your typical kettle sour. And it was different than a lacto sour, like a tangyness. Any thoughts? Thanks!

 

[Dgallo]

I had Tiny Esses by Partisan Ales last night, really fun and good sour! I'm curious if anyone knows how they get that tangy sour flavor? It was probably the most sour beer I've had. Not puckering but def higher than your typical kettle sour. And it was different than a lacto sour, like a tangyness. Any thoughts? Thanks!

Could be using pedio for their lactic producing strain which gives little more depth. That says, I would honestly describe all lacto sours as tangy, is there any other ways you could describe the difference in flavor. Like did it have a slight hint of vinegar?