Fast Souring - Modern Methods

[ryking13]

Could be using pedio for their lactic producing strain which gives little more depth. That says, I would honestly describe all lacto sours as tangy, is there any other ways you could describe the difference in flavor. Like did it have a slight hint of vinegar?

I'm bad at describing flavors ha, I guess I don't consider my lacto-based sours all that "tangy" where this beer was. The other way I'd describe it is that sourness that makes you pucker, def had more of that than most sours beers I've had. It didn't remind me of vinegar really but I've never had a beer with vinegar; or at least that I've known of

 

[Dgallo]

I'm bad at describing flavors ha, I guess I don't consider my lacto-based sours all that "tangy" where this beer was. The other way I'd describe it is that sourness that makes you pucker, def had more of that than most sours beers I've had. It didn't remind me of vinegar really but I've never had a beer with vinegar; or at least that I've known of

Gotcha. Vinegar character is acetic acid. Some microbs make it In Healthy fermentations and others make it when stressed.

Do you drink primarily kettle sours or do you also drink mix ferms with Brett. It’s certainly possible your getting a combined character from the culture blend used

 

[ryking13]

Gotcha. Vinegar character is acetic acid. Some microbs make it In Healthy fermentations and others make it when stressed.

Do you drink primarily kettle sours or do you also drink mix ferms with Brett. It’s certainly possible your getting a combined character from the culture blend used

Primarily kettle sours and then my own lacto "fast" sours. Hmm yeah I wonder if they used a Brett.

 

[Dgallo]

Primarily kettle sours and then my own lacto "fast" sours. Hmm yeah I wonder if they used a Brett.

I just looked up the beer. Its a kettle/copitched lacto sour that was aged on candy. The candy most likely has citric acid and artificial flavors/sugars so it could be the difference you’re tasting

 

[ryking13]

I just looked up the beer. Its a kettle/copitched lacto sour that was aged on candy. The candy most likely has citric acid and artificial flavors/sugars so it could be the difference you’re tasting

Citric acid would make sense as citrus fruit can give you that puckering feeling. Yeah I'm assuming they're adding Skittles in it, hence the tiny S's

 

[RPh_Guy]

That beer tastes like a handful of Skittles. Very sweet and fruity.

 

[ryking13]

@RPh_Guy would the co-sour method work with Voss Kviek at a high temp like 95f? I actually want the orange esters from a fast/hot fermentation but not sure how that will affect the lacto part of things. Thanks!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Would the co-sour method work with Voss Kviek at a high temp like 95f? I actually want the orange esters from a fast/hot fermentation but not sure how that will affect the lacto part of things. Thanks!

Absolutely! Keep it under 100°F.

 

[VikeMan]

It didn't remind me of vinegar really but I've never had a beer with vinegar; or at least that I've known of

Surprise! Every beer has some vinegar (acetic acid) in it. Fortunately, it's rarely above taste threshold in beers where it's not intended.

 

[Miles_1111]

Can you brew Sour IPA by Co-Souring Method or Post-souring method? Since no hops to be added during boiling, only drying hopping which could add limited bitterness, but not bitter enough for an IPA?

 

[Dgallo]

Can you brew Sour IPA by Co-Souring Method or Post-souring method? Since no hops to be added during boiling, only drying hopping which could add limited bitterness, but not bitter enough for an IPA?

You can as long as you pitch your LAB and aloe it to sour prior to adding hops

 

[Miraculix]

You can always make a hop tea and add this for bittering.

 

[Miles_1111]

I am also curious about that why not adding lactic acid to the beer directly? What difference does it make from adding L. plantarum to create lactic acid in beer?

Also if don't boil wort for brewing sour beer, how to hot break proteins and other unpleasant compounds? As this is one of the three main purposes of boiling.

 

[VikeMan]

I am also curious about that why not adding lactic acid to the beer directly? What difference does it make from adding L. plantarum to create lactic acid in beer?

Lactobacillus plantarum makes other compounds too.

Think of it this way, as an anology. Ale Yeast makes alcohol, but nobody tries to make "beer" by adding pure ethanol to hop water.

 

[Miraculix]

Lactobacillus plantarum makes other compounds too.

Think of it this way, as an anology. Ale Yeast makes alcohol, but nobody tries to make "beer" by adding pure ethanol to hop water.

Well....
. ........ Hard Seltzer's comes awfully close to hop water with alcohol.

 

[Miles_1111]

What about the hop break though? If boiling is not necessary, just recommended for sour beer, what about the unpleasant compounds?

 

[Beer666]

What about the hop break though? If boiling is not necessary, just recommended for sour beer, what about the unpleasant compounds?

There are no unpleasant compounds. I don't boil most of my sours. Hop tea, dry hop or both. I have some crystal clear fruited sour on tap and no one would guess its a raw beer.

 

[Beer666]

This is my 4% raspberry and pineapple no boil sour. I used verdant and its still clear with time. Left on fruit and hops for 2 months. Amarillo dry hop and soured with omega labs lacto. Same pack i bought a few years ago. Very fruity on the nose. Hops in the background, almost a perfume smell. Lacto added after 3 days and it still has a bright acidity.

 

[Miraculix]

This is my 4% raspberry and pineapple no boil sour. I used verdant and its still clear with time. Left on fruit and hops for 2 months. Amarillo dry hop and soured with omega labs lacto. Same pack i bought a few years ago. Very fruity on the nose. Hops in the background, almost a perfume smell. Lacto added after 3 days and it still has a bright acidity.

View attachment 809914

This looks really good, I want one now!

 

[Miles_1111]

There are no unpleasant compounds. I don't boil most of my sours. Hop tea, dry hop or both. I have some crystal clear fruited sour on tap and no one would guess its a raw beer.

The unpleasant compound like DMS? Maybe the sourness covers the off-flavor of DMS, or PH<5.4 could prevent the production of DMS?

 

[Beer666]

Never had DMS. I dont think its produced at those temperatures. Perhaps someone else will know. I have done well over a hundred batches of raw beer. A horrible tasting acidic beer will still be a horrible beer imho.

 

[Brewer dad]

The unpleasant compound like DMS? Maybe the sourness covers the off-flavor of DMS, or PH<5.4 could prevent the production of DMS?

I know we’re starting to get off op, but I’ll just add this link for reference in re the DMS for raw ales. Short version is @Beer666 is correct, DMS isn’t produced until you go above 176-185F.

Mr. Laitinen also discusses hop tea, which could be relevant to this thread.

https://www.brewingnordic.com/new-nordic-beer/raw-ale/

 

[Beer666]

I know we’re starting to get off op, but I’ll just add this link for reference in re the DMS for raw ales. Short version is @Beer666 is correct, DMS isn’t produced until you go above 176-185F.

Mr. Laitinen also discusses hop tea, which could be relevant to this thread.

https://www.brewingnordic.com/new-nordic-beer/raw-ale/

Nice one. Will give that a read later.

 

[Beer666]

Very encouraging. He has some bottled sours over 5 years old! That is excellent.

 

[suprchunk]

Very encouraging. He has some bottled sours over 5 years old! That is excellent.

I have some 20 year old stout. Some 10 year old sours (one always wishes they got into sours way sooner than they do once they start brewing them). Some 20+ year old ales and lagers (I'm a hoarder, sue me), that I probably will never drink, though I've had a couple through the years and they are not good anymore. But I can't dump them, help!

Not to get off topic...sorry,.

 

[beervoid]

I explain the method I'm currently using on this thread:
Bottling with Brett

You can also read about it in the MTF wiki under mixed fermentation - under 3 months.

More experiments are needed before I want to advocate that as the best method though. It's a much more complex process than these Lacto/Sacc sours. The devil is in the details.


Good thinking! I actually mention that as a theoretical possibility in this thread:
Maximizing Barnyard/Horse Blanket
My current thought is that blending will be needed to create the desired profile in such an accelerated timeframe. One sour batch with fruity Brett character (which really is a fantastic beer by itself) and one batch optimized for barnyard funk.

Cheers

Is there a seperate thread on this technique yet? I would like to get into it, I got a bunch of stainless keg's that I will be dedicating to brett sour projects.
If anyone has a link much appreciated!
Cheers

 

[RPh_Guy]

Is there a seperate thread on this technique yet? I would like to get into it, I got a bunch of stainless keg's that I will be dedicating to brett sour projects.
If anyone has a link much appreciated!
Cheers

I haven't seen anyone else report results from this method.

 

[beervoid]

I haven't seen anyone else report results from this method.

Ok I will describe a method I have trialled before and plan to try again.

Make a turbid mash wort.
Bring ph end of boil down to <5.0
Pitch philly sour
Let it ferment a few days then pitch the brett.
Previois brew I also put fruit in the keg at this point, let it rip till blow off slows down then spund at about 10psi and let it sit at "room temp" (20-30c its tropical here).
Beer was already nice at 1 month in had some bretr character. I let it go for another 6 months and it was getting very funky.

This time I want to swap out the philly sour with sourvisae + a yet to be determined yeast.
Foregoe the fruit and let the kegs age with a combination of different brett cultures.
Also want to double the pitch amount of brett.

Let them for a few months, then brew a simple sour fruited beer and blend it back in with the brett for serving.
I wont bottle any of it, it will stay in kegs.

 

[Dgallo]

Is there a seperate thread on this technique yet? I would like to get into it, I got a bunch of stainless keg's that I will be dedicating to brett sour projects.
If anyone has a link much appreciated!
Cheers

What method are you specifically talking about? Adding Brett at bottling? Or in this case, adding Brett for carbonating a keg?

 

[beervoid]

What method are you specifically talking about? Adding Brett at bottling? Or in this case, adding Brett for carbonating a keg?

I was replying to an old comment of @RPh_Guy about doing a fast brett sour