Experiences with different saison yeast blends

[hopbrad]

I brewed 25 gallons yesterday - 1.057 OG
92.5% pils
7.5% cane sugar
1.75 oz magnum @ 75
4 oz palisade @ 10
2.5 oz wakatu @ 0
Pitched this morning at 60F. split half with the Omega hybrid for a saison and half with wlp500 for a blond. going to let it rise to the low 70s, hold for a day or 2 then let go to 80f. will update when the saison is done to see how the 2nd generation does.

next brew day im going to set aside a carboy to blend the hybrid and wlp500. I also have wlp570 and wy3787 harvested. so i might blend another carboy. hoping to get the hothead yeast soon to play around with that.

 

[rhys333]

I brewed 25 gallons yesterday - 1.057 OG

That should last you at least a couple weeks.

 

[hopbrad]

That should last you at least a couple weeks.

well ill sell some. im in Nicaragua and the closest craft brewery is a brewpub thats an hour and a half away. so I fill the void for some of the expats and tourist bars with a 50 gallon setup i built. the rest goes into the belly's of me and my brew partner

 

[rhys333]

Well my first 3724 saison reached 90% attenuation at 5 weeks (1.043-1.004), fermented at low 80s. Gravity sample shows no yeast character though, and might as well be US05! Perhaps 5 weeks in primary cleaned up all the esters, but I'm not a fan of this strain so far. Why did I wait over a month for this?

 

[tagz]

Interesting. That could be temp, pitch rate, and oxygen level. Any details on those variables?

 

[rhys333]

Interesting. That could be temp, pitch rate, and oxygen level. Any details on those variables?

Sure thing. Wort was oxygenated by stirring/agitating 3-5 mins. I made a 1.5L starter from a fresh smack pack and pitched at high krausen into 5.5 gallons @ 1.043 (used recommended amount of Wyeast nutrient). Pitching temp was 65-70F if I recall. First signs of activity at 18-24 hours. Ramped up to 80-82 over 1.5 days. Fermented strong for a few days followed by the "saison stall". Measured 1.012 after a week of inactivity and then 1.004 after another. Temp did fluctuate between high 70s and low 80s during later stages, but that's it. The recipe is a wheat saison (60% wheat, 32% 2Row, 8% oats) and includes a couple ounces of late addition EKG, but its not nearly hoppy enough to mask the yeast flavors.

 

[secondbase]

Could be a slight overpitch. Odd, I've always gotten strong yeast character from that yeast. It's actually my favorite and the most complex saison yeast I've used. It really does benefit from a little extra conditioning, IME.

 

[tagz]

Seems like a solid process. As secondbase mentioned, it's a slight over-pitch. Your batch required 165B cells and your starter made roughly 300B. That could mute the flavors.

Also, if you give it another go, second generation will perform quicker, especially if you can keep the temp from fluctuating.

 

[rhys333]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I forgot to mention I use the "no shaking" method for starters, so should be at 170B rather that 300B if I'd used a stirplate.

 

[m00ps]

Hey errbody, been busy lately so I need to sit down and go over my latest yeast experiments.

But I just wanted to give everyone a heads up that white labs Belgian saison iii wlp585 is seasonally out now! This is easily a top contender for my favorite yeast. I grabbed a fresh one since I've used the culture I first got in nearly 20 batches. Get some while you can

 

[tagz]

Nice. Can you give a run down of preferred temps, typical attenuation, and the flavors you're getting out of it?

 

[m00ps]

Nice. Can you give a run down of preferred temps, typical attenuation, and the flavors you're getting out of it?

I've used it free rising at room temps and pushed into the 90s by day 2-3 with good results. THough I never did any sort of side by side to test how it changed the flavor profile and the recipes were all different

Its the most tart sacch yeast I've tasted. Tart to the point that when first researching it, a lot of brewers suspected a mild infection. I taste bit more tart lemon than WY3711 but with some raspberries as well. It also gets a nice funky nose in some of the beers, and starters that i've done with it.

The attenuation is slightly higher than what you'd expect from a saison yeast. Usually around 90% apparent attenuation (using 5-7% sugar usually in the recipe) for me. Its higher than I get with something like WLP565/WY3724, but still not quite as high as WY3711 or YB Wallonian Farmhouse. Its high attenuation doesnt seem to give me a lasting sweetness (that doesnt age out) which I definitely like.

 

[Rdom]

Moops, what type of heat source are you using to raise fermentation temps? I think I'm gonna have to get some sort of heat source so I can brew some saisons this winter so I'm looking for recommendations.

 

[m00ps]

Moops, what type of heat source are you using to raise fermentation temps? I think I'm gonna have to get some sort of heat source so I can brew some saisons this winter so I'm looking for recommendations.

I use this,

fill with water and put this in it
https://www.amazon.com/Aquatop-Aquarium-Submersible-Heater-150-Watt/dp/B006MMJ8EE

 

[tagz]

I got my 585 trial batch going. That stuff seems to have some decent floccing ability. I had to shake my hemocytometer sample like mad to get an accurate count.

Starting at 68 and going to ramp up from there. I also have a 3724/644 blend that I can report on shortly.

 

[bucketnative]

That's a good point. That's why 3711 would take a given wort down to 1.004, where as US-05 may stop at 1.010 in the same wort. So, they'd be 50/50 down to a certain gravity, then 3711 would keep chugging.

Maybe I'll split the batch and do it both ways, then report back here.

Update on splitting WY3522 and Belle Saison:

This was a rye saison with 50% 3522 slurry and 50% BS slurry, each about 50 mL. Pitched at 80F and temperature in the basement was 79F, so it is reasonable to assume that temperature of the ferment reached at least 85F. At the start of fermentation, the esters dominated, but after about a week, the whiffs off the airlock were distinctly saisonesque.

OG was 1.054 and FG was 1.000 after 3 weeks of fermentation.

Flavors at bottling were dry up front, but with an estery, peach-like finish from the 3522. I would say that the esters were a bit more dominant than were the typical BS saison flavors.

I primed this, targeting 2.7 vol with DME.

I'll update this with the "from the bottle" tasting notes once carbonation is finished, probably another two weeks at least. Right now, I can't tell if I will like this beer as much/more than a straight saison.

UPDATED: 10 OCT 2016 - I would say that the esters are somewhat inappropriate for a saison style. They are strong on the nose. Very peachy, and the taste profile goes from peach to saison yeast (BS) back to peach in the aftertaste. That's not to say that this is a bad combination, I am leaning towards the temperature being just too high for the 3522. I may try this again once the basement gets to around 67F (soon).

 

[tgmartin000]

Moops, what type of heat source are you using to raise fermentation temps? I think I'm gonna have to get some sort of heat source so I can brew some saisons this winter so I'm looking for recommendations.

I also like this one:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/fermwrap-heater.html

It was able to keep a saison at about 85, wrapped in blankets, in the dead of winter last year.

 

[Rdom]

Thanks, moops and tgmartin!

 

[rhys333]

Interesting. My first generation 3724 took 5 weeks to reach FG. My second generation is 4 DAYS in and only 4 points away from FG. Holy crap!

 

[grayhalladay]

Curious to see how this compared to my hothead from omega. Sounds like very similar origins if not the same strain. Huge temp range. Fruity and from Norwegian farmhouse roots

edit: after some more looking, it seems that this is a disputed topic, it may likely be, but there are those that do not think so. I am in the "likely is the same" camp.

Don't know if you have found this out yet, but yes this is the same strain. Lars Garshol sent this strain over to North America after his big Norwegian farmhouse tour. Its a super cool yeast and helps me brew pales and IPAs in AZ!

 

[tboog86]

I'm looking for any experience combining WLP565 and WLP566. I have scoured this thread and people have mentioned wanting to try it but not any specific results. Any feedback would be great but I am specifically debating on how to combine them. Co-pitch 1:1, Pitch WLP565 and pitch WLP566 when it starts to stall, or pitch a starter of WLP565 and just a package of WLP566. Ultimately what I am looking for is to add some fruitiness and dryness to the earth and spice from WLP565 but dont want 566 to totally run away with the batch.

 

[newkirk]

Well I'm bottling my "'tis the Saison" tonight. Ended up using WLP500 and WY3711, more of the 3711. (I used one tube WLP500 and most of a cold-crashed 400ml jelly jar of WY3711 starter) Pitched into 1.072 wort on Nov5, reached 1.008 by Nov 18th, 1.006 today. Warmed slightly after a few days to keep it around 72-74 for about a week, then returned to 66-68 ambient.

Probably should have tilted toward WLP500 more, but so far gravity sample tastes enticing - slightly to moderately fruity, slightly spicy, dry. Excited to try it in a few weeks. (planning recipe for next year already - start with CSI's Westy12 base, go fruitier on hops, hit with 3711 or Saisonstein partway through primary, and age on cherries and oak)


Also wanted to comment that I brewed a 2.5gal batch of my regular Saison Dew a couple months ago and split between three 1-gal jugs - one got the 3711, one got Saisonsteins Monster, one got Hothead, all fermented at 66F-68F ambient.

First and second comparison tastings agreed: Hothead is interesting, tangier, but beer seems a bit less complex apart from that. 3711 is tasty as always, delicately spicy and fruity, while Saisonstein adds a couple layers of complexity to it - something elusive changes in the spiciness, and there's an apple/pear character I've never encountered so strong except with WY3725 Biere de Garde. (loved that batch - at about 3 months all the bottles rapidly turned to gushers though, next time will keg instead)

Not decided yet if I like the Saisonstein or 3711 better for this brew, though leaning toward the 3711 - the fruit additions from Saisonstein kind of muddle the tropical/citrus notes of the hops, though it contributes a slightly greater perceived mouthfeel. Saisonstein took off (1/2" krausen at 4hrs) and finished quicker, was clarifying at 3 days when other two were still roiling clouds, and attenuated a little further than 3711. (1.006 vs 1.008, and 1.010 for Hothead) May end up with a seasonal variation - 3711 to drink in warmer weather, Saisonstein in colder.

As for Hothead, I will likely brew with it again, but not this recipe - probably something more robust, like a rye saison, that could better endure and benefit from its contributions. If you're in a position of fermenting a saison with ambient temps high-80s or higher then it's well worth consideration, but I don't see it easily producing something that would be described as 'delicate'.

j

 

[Dog House Brew]

I have a split batch of Saison now. 12g w 565 6g w 566. I pitched at 65, moved it next to my heating vent and let it rise to 72 over 2 days. Put them on my vent and they went to 80-82 overnight. Stayed there for 7 days. The 566 is almost lagerish and is at 1.008. The 565 is much more complex and at 1.006. No stall or any issues. I would say adding at the end if there is a stall, would be OK. I've never experienced any stall with 565.

 

[hopbrad]

Well I'm bottling my "'tis the Saison" tonight. Ended up using WLP500 and WY3711, more of the 3711. (I used one tube WLP500 and most of a cold-crashed 400ml jelly jar of WY3711 starter) Pitched into 1.072 wort on Nov5, reached 1.008 by Nov 18th, 1.006 today. Warmed slightly after a few days to keep it around 72-74 for about a week, then returned to 66-68 ambient.

Probably should have tilted toward WLP500 more, but so far gravity sample tastes enticing - slightly to moderately fruity, slightly spicy, dry. Excited to try it in a few weeks. (planning recipe for next year already - start with CSI's Westy12 base, go fruitier on hops, hit with 3711 or Saisonstein partway through primary, and age on cherries and oak)


Also wanted to comment that I brewed a 2.5gal batch of my regular Saison Dew a couple months ago and split between three 1-gal jugs - one got the 3711, one got Saisonsteins Monster, one got Hothead, all fermented at 66F-68F ambient.

First and second comparison tastings agreed: Hothead is interesting, tangier, but beer seems a bit less complex apart from that. 3711 is tasty as always, delicately spicy and fruity, while Saisonstein adds a couple layers of complexity to it - something elusive changes in the spiciness, and there's an apple/pear character I've never encountered so strong except with WY3725 Biere de Garde. (loved that batch - at about 3 months all the bottles rapidly turned to gushers though, next time will keg instead)

Not decided yet if I like the Saisonstein or 3711 better for this brew, though leaning toward the 3711 - the fruit additions from Saisonstein kind of muddle the tropical/citrus notes of the hops, though it contributes a slightly greater perceived mouthfeel. Saisonstein took off (1/2" krausen at 4hrs) and finished quicker, was clarifying at 3 days when other two were still roiling clouds, and attenuated a little further than 3711. (1.006 vs 1.008, and 1.010 for Hothead) May end up with a seasonal variation - 3711 to drink in warmer weather, Saisonstein in colder.

As for Hothead, I will likely brew with it again, but not this recipe - probably something more robust, like a rye saison, that could better endure and benefit from its contributions. If you're in a position of fermenting a saison with ambient temps high-80s or higher then it's well worth consideration, but I don't see it easily producing something that would be described as 'delicate'.

j

nice update
I've been using saisonstein for a few months now and about 5-6 generations deep on some brews. I generally ferment about 62-64 ambient and will let it finish in the mid 70s ambient after a week. I get alot of bubblegum while young and that tends to fade to apple/pear. My latest batch and generation 6 is starting to throw some apricot/peach. never experienced a lot of spice. I usually bottle condition my belgians but will keg some from time to time. really enjoying this yeast.

 

[Jonkl]

I recently brewed a Belg-toberfest, and fermented with Saisonstein. I actually timed it just right, with the first big cold spell of the year, and it ended up fermenting in the exterior mud room in the 56-58 range. I had a similar brew last year, which I fermented with a 3711/566 combo, in the 62F range. It gave *huge* clove/allspice character, to the point that no one could believe I didn't brew the beer with spices. So I wanted to try a similar technique with a similar beer, to see what Saisonstein did.

It ended up being a little more muted, but the clove/allspice character is still definitely there. It plays really well with a malty base. One thing that was different was that I also get sort of a lager-y ester character, alongside the spice. It's okay, but it does clash a little bit. Maybe I'll try more of a low-60s ferment next time, instead of high-50s and see what happens.

Next up, I've got an aquarium heater on the way from Amazon, so I'm going to do a more traditional saison base (with French hops), and ferment it crazy hot. We'll see what happens.

 

[MacAle]

Do you have the recipe for this?

WLP585 / INISBC-291 - table saison
Doing this a third time, but decided to try a <4% beer to see how it affected the yeast character. From what I can taste, its very similar, but a bit more spice than i'd expect. So instead of a tart fruit bomb its a bit more balanced, though definitely still on the fruity side. Used about 50% flaked adjuncts to try and keep the body from being watery. Ended up at 4.2% though, oops

 

[Queequeg]

Got a blend of WLP565 and wyeast3724 fermenting a dark saison at the moment. I pitched two 800ml starters at high krausen at 64 F then after 2 days ramped to 95F over 24 hours.

I didn't add sugar during the boil, I plan to add it this weekend on day 5 of fermentation.

I am using the foil cover on a dry airlock.

When should I be thinking about checking gravity? If it stalls I want to get on top of things sooner rather than later.

 

[bolus14]

If your ramping up to 95 I don't think you'll have any problems with it finishing. If you plan to add sugar on day 5 I say wait till then. Adding the sugar should certainly wake the yeast back up as well.

 

[Queequeg]

Cool, I read a lot of problem stories about those strains

 

[trav77]

Yeah you will be fine if you keep it warm like that.

FWIW I never put much stock in the back pressure theory. The amount of pressure that the tiny bit of liquid in the airlock contributes is negligible relative to the wort itself.