Experiences with different saison yeast blends

[loctones]

Anyone have experience with Inland Island Brett Barrel III (INIS-913) and a saison strain? From what I have heard, this one is from Crooked Stave, and is supposedly the Bretty Drei that Chad isolated. I'm thinking of co-pitching with WLP565.

 

[m00ps]

That's what I was wondering about.

I don't run with temperature control on my fermentations. I had just finished up a dubbel with 3522 at 80F (Wyeast used to recommend up to 85F for this strain), and it had some interesting esters (banana) and some phenols (solvent). I am hoping to age it out for a few months in bottle before trying. I was worried that they might be too prolific in a blend.

I was thinking of possibly letting the BS start off, and then add 3522 after for some background notes. But then, the 3522 might very well be completely overrun by BS.

I would just toss them in at the same time. Every time I've used something aggressive like WY3711 it never takes over the profile. I usually actually taste more of the other strain.

The way I think about it is this (TL: DR)
When we call a yeast strain "aggressive" it doesnt necessarily mean it eats all the sugars at a much faster rate than other yeast strains. It means that it is capable of fermenting a larger range of sugars, from simple to complex. So when you pitch them both, the 3522 will still have access to all the sugars that it would normally be able to metabolize, but the Belle Saison will be the only one eating the more complex ones.

This would also explain why people report mashing high (154-155) and still getting low FGs using strains like WY3711 or Belle Saison. I am guessing that those yeasts are capable of metabolizing long chain sugars that run the whole range of what would be produced in normal brewing mash temp ranges. Whereas most other yeast strains wouldnt be able to eat the more complex sugars produced at higher mash temps. Kind of the same with Brett.

 

[bucketnative]

I would just toss them in at the same time. Every time I've used something aggressive like WY3711 it never takes over the profile. I usually actually taste more of the other strain.

The way I think about it is this (TL: DR)
When we call a yeast strain "aggressive" it doesnt necessarily mean it eats all the sugars at a much faster rate than other yeast strains. It means that it is capable of fermenting a larger range of sugars, from simple to complex. So when you pitch them both, the 3522 will still have access to all the sugars that it would normally be able to metabolize, but the Belle Saison will be the only one eating the more complex ones.

That's a good point. That's why 3711 would take a given wort down to 1.004, where as US-05 may stop at 1.010 in the same wort. So, they'd be 50/50 down to a certain gravity, then 3711 would keep chugging.

Maybe I'll split the batch and do it both ways, then report back here.

 

[brewski09]

Anyone have experience with Inland Island Brett Barrel III (INIS-913) and a saison strain? From what I have heard, this one is from Crooked Stave, and is supposedly the Bretty Drei that Chad isolated. I'm thinking of co-pitching with WLP565.

That's a beast of a Drei strain then and will do you right. Thx for the tip, I'll have to acquire some when I have enough capacity to keep it alive.

 

[rhys333]

Well my first 3724 batch is sitting at 71% attenuation after 12 days (1.043-1.012). Krausen has fallen and there's no activity. Started at 68F and ramped up to 83ish where it still sits. Apparently its going to be a p.i.t.a. after all.

 

[loctones]

That's a beast of a Drei strain then

Good to know, thanks. I'm leaning towards a 10 gal. batch. Half will get WLP565 and some Dirty Dozen I've had going for a while. The other half will get WLP565 and the Brett Barrel III.

 

[rhys333]

Well my first 3724 batch is sitting at 71% attenuation after 12 days (1.043-1.012). Krausen has fallen and there's no activity. Started at 68F and ramped up to 83ish where it still sits. Apparently its going to be a p.i.t.a. after all.

I'm actually thinking of racking this to secondary, harvesting the 3724, and pitching a half packet of Belle Saison. At this rate I'll be weeks or months in primary otherwise.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Yeah BS or 3711 will finish that up in a couple days

 

[Brewmasher]

I would just toss them in at the same time. Every time I've used something aggressive like WY3711 it never takes over the profile. I usually actually taste more of the other strain.

The way I think about it is this (TL: DR)
When we call a yeast strain "aggressive" it doesnt necessarily mean it eats all the sugars at a much faster rate than other yeast strains. It means that it is capable of fermenting a larger range of sugars, from simple to complex. So when you pitch them both, the 3522 will still have access to all the sugars that it would normally be able to metabolize, but the Belle Saison will be the only one eating the more complex ones.

This would also explain why people report mashing high (154-155) and still getting low FGs using strains like WY3711 or Belle Saison. I am guessing that those yeasts are capable of metabolizing long chain sugars that run the whole range of what would be produced in normal brewing mash temp ranges. Whereas most other yeast strains wouldnt be able to eat the more complex sugars produced at higher mash temps. Kind of the same with Brett.

How do you determine the pitch ratio? I have massive amounts of harvested 3711. If I made a starter with another yeast, and pitched some harvested 3711, how could I know if I am over pitching the 3711 vs the other yeast? Or does it really matter?

My current batch I pitched a starter of 3787 into 1.065 wort, harvested some krausen at 3 days, then pitched harvested 3711 with 2# sugar. My plan is to do the same next batch with the harvested 3787, but this time finish with the 3787/3711 slurry. My thinking is that the yeast harvested at the end of fermentation will have a higher concentration of 3711 cells because they continue to work after the other yeast gives up.

I may try other yeasts, harvesting the pure strain krausen to have on hand, and finishing with the previous batch's slurry. This way I can develop a "house yeast" using the pure strains to keep some balance.

 

[phishie]

I would be interested in your advice on using 3711 to specifically target lemon & pepper flavors while avoiding banana flavor. I read the first few pages and last few so please forgive me if you've answered this already.

Current plan I have in my head is to pitch at 60 or 65 and ferment in 72 ambient. No other temp control would be used.

 

[tagz]

You shouldn't have any trouble with banana esters if you're using 3711. You might want to try to control things for the first 24-48 hrs. 72 ambient can mean 78-80 internal. It's ok to end that high but I would try to hold it lower at the beginning.

 

[phishie]

You shouldn't have any trouble with banana esters if you're using 3711. You might want to try to control things for the first 24-48 hrs. 72 ambient can mean 78-80 internal. It's ok to end that high but I would try to hold it lower at the beginning.

Cool thanks. I want to avoid banana esters and fusel alcohols, although I'm less worried about the latter as I'll only be brewing a 6.5% ABV saison.

Hopefully pitching at 60-65 and keeping in a water bath for the first 24-48 hours will achieve that.

 

[rhys333]

Cool thanks. I want to avoid banana esters and fusel alcohols, although I'm less worried about the latter as I'll only be brewing a 6.5% ABV saison.

Hopefully pitching at 60-65 and keeping in a water bath for the first 24-48 hours will achieve that.

Be prepared for 88-90% attenuation from that sucker. Wyeast says 77-83%. Lies!

 

[botigol]

My last batch with WY3711 had 88% attenuation...this is the lowest attenuation that I've seen with it!

 

[brewski09]

^+1 3711 will attenuate about 90%

 

[Braufessor]

Photo of one of my saisons. I used a combo of 3724 and 3711. Got some banana in it.... Thinking that came from the 3724. Not overwhelming... But it is there. Weird as it is.... Getting it a bit light struck gets rid of the banana and it is really good. I did a second batch that I bottled with a couple types of Brett.... Wlp645 and oly210... We'll see how that turns out. Going to do two more. One that is exclusively 3711. The other will be primary with a blend of 3711,3724, wlp645 and oly210.

 

[rhys333]

Well my 3724 wheat beer has been in primary for 28 days and I'm still only at 83% attenuation (1.043-1.007). Its a bit of a p.i.t.a. I did include 8% oats in the grist but I would have expected it to have gone lower and finished by now. Also, that saison funk is there, but kinda muted. I'm a little underwhelmed by this strain at the moment.

 

[hopbrad]

I have a saison with the OYL saisonstein, suppose to be a hybrid of 3274 and 3711.
OG 1.064
FG 1.004
95% viking pils and 5% table sugar.
warrior for bittering
saaz and sty goldings for flavor/aroma
23 ibus
pitched 65F and finished low 80s.

dry but not overly so. some spice and clove, mostly fruit. bubblegum aroma. apple/pear too. pretty solid combo of the 2 strains.

 

[Jonkl]

@m00ps Have you done much with the Saisonstein's Monster from OYL? I've been wondering if that would make a decent quasi-blend.

I've had two experiments with this one. It's hard to pin down a character, because the first was a Farmhouse IPA with Nelson and Pacific Jade, and the other is one I brewed with Yucca petals. The yeast played more of a supporting role in both. But, numbers-wise, I'm only getting 80-85% apparent attenuation. It gets below 1.010, but not much lower. Still a fairly dry finish, but not as much as I was expecting.

Next up is a more basic saison, so hopefully I'll have better notes on the actual character of the yeast hybrid.

 

[WI_Wino]

I've had two experiments with this one. It's hard to pin down a character, because the first was a Farmhouse IPA with Nelson and Pacific Jade, and the other is one I brewed with Yucca petals. The yeast played more of a supporting role in both. But, numbers-wise, I'm only getting 80-85% apparent attenuation. It gets below 1.010, but not much lower. Still a fairly dry finish, but not as much as I was expecting.

Next up is a more basic saison, so hopefully I'll have better notes on the actual character of the yeast hybrid.

I've used the Omega hybrid twice with good attenuation:

First (pitch w/ starter) took 1.050 to 1.004 (83% pils, 10% munich, 5% wheat, 1% caramunich). Pitched at 72 F, fermented at 70 F room temp.

Second (repitched from slurry) took 1.054 to 1.002 (47% 2 row, 36% pils, 5% table sugar, 5% wheat, 4% c40, 3% aromatic, 1% special B). Pitched at 62 F, fermented at 70 F room temp.

 

[hopbrad]

I brewed 25 gallons yesterday - 1.057 OG
92.5% pils
7.5% cane sugar
1.75 oz magnum @ 75
4 oz palisade @ 10
2.5 oz wakatu @ 0
Pitched this morning at 60F. split half with the Omega hybrid for a saison and half with wlp500 for a blond. going to let it rise to the low 70s, hold for a day or 2 then let go to 80f. will update when the saison is done to see how the 2nd generation does.

next brew day im going to set aside a carboy to blend the hybrid and wlp500. I also have wlp570 and wy3787 harvested. so i might blend another carboy. hoping to get the hothead yeast soon to play around with that.

 

[rhys333]

I brewed 25 gallons yesterday - 1.057 OG

That should last you at least a couple weeks.

 

[hopbrad]

That should last you at least a couple weeks.

well ill sell some. im in Nicaragua and the closest craft brewery is a brewpub thats an hour and a half away. so I fill the void for some of the expats and tourist bars with a 50 gallon setup i built. the rest goes into the belly's of me and my brew partner

 

[rhys333]

Well my first 3724 saison reached 90% attenuation at 5 weeks (1.043-1.004), fermented at low 80s. Gravity sample shows no yeast character though, and might as well be US05! Perhaps 5 weeks in primary cleaned up all the esters, but I'm not a fan of this strain so far. Why did I wait over a month for this?

 

[tagz]

Interesting. That could be temp, pitch rate, and oxygen level. Any details on those variables?

 

[rhys333]

Interesting. That could be temp, pitch rate, and oxygen level. Any details on those variables?

Sure thing. Wort was oxygenated by stirring/agitating 3-5 mins. I made a 1.5L starter from a fresh smack pack and pitched at high krausen into 5.5 gallons @ 1.043 (used recommended amount of Wyeast nutrient). Pitching temp was 65-70F if I recall. First signs of activity at 18-24 hours. Ramped up to 80-82 over 1.5 days. Fermented strong for a few days followed by the "saison stall". Measured 1.012 after a week of inactivity and then 1.004 after another. Temp did fluctuate between high 70s and low 80s during later stages, but that's it. The recipe is a wheat saison (60% wheat, 32% 2Row, 8% oats) and includes a couple ounces of late addition EKG, but its not nearly hoppy enough to mask the yeast flavors.

 

[secondbase]

Could be a slight overpitch. Odd, I've always gotten strong yeast character from that yeast. It's actually my favorite and the most complex saison yeast I've used. It really does benefit from a little extra conditioning, IME.

 

[tagz]

Seems like a solid process. As secondbase mentioned, it's a slight over-pitch. Your batch required 165B cells and your starter made roughly 300B. That could mute the flavors.

Also, if you give it another go, second generation will perform quicker, especially if you can keep the temp from fluctuating.

 

[rhys333]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I forgot to mention I use the "no shaking" method for starters, so should be at 170B rather that 300B if I'd used a stirplate.

 

[m00ps]

Hey errbody, been busy lately so I need to sit down and go over my latest yeast experiments.

But I just wanted to give everyone a heads up that white labs Belgian saison iii wlp585 is seasonally out now! This is easily a top contender for my favorite yeast. I grabbed a fresh one since I've used the culture I first got in nearly 20 batches. Get some while you can

 

[tagz]

Nice. Can you give a run down of preferred temps, typical attenuation, and the flavors you're getting out of it?

 

[m00ps]

Nice. Can you give a run down of preferred temps, typical attenuation, and the flavors you're getting out of it?

I've used it free rising at room temps and pushed into the 90s by day 2-3 with good results. THough I never did any sort of side by side to test how it changed the flavor profile and the recipes were all different

Its the most tart sacch yeast I've tasted. Tart to the point that when first researching it, a lot of brewers suspected a mild infection. I taste bit more tart lemon than WY3711 but with some raspberries as well. It also gets a nice funky nose in some of the beers, and starters that i've done with it.

The attenuation is slightly higher than what you'd expect from a saison yeast. Usually around 90% apparent attenuation (using 5-7% sugar usually in the recipe) for me. Its higher than I get with something like WLP565/WY3724, but still not quite as high as WY3711 or YB Wallonian Farmhouse. Its high attenuation doesnt seem to give me a lasting sweetness (that doesnt age out) which I definitely like.

 

[Rdom]

Moops, what type of heat source are you using to raise fermentation temps? I think I'm gonna have to get some sort of heat source so I can brew some saisons this winter so I'm looking for recommendations.

 

[m00ps]

Moops, what type of heat source are you using to raise fermentation temps? I think I'm gonna have to get some sort of heat source so I can brew some saisons this winter so I'm looking for recommendations.

I use this,

fill with water and put this in it
https://www.amazon.com/Aquatop-Aquarium-Submersible-Heater-150-Watt/dp/B006MMJ8EE

 

[tagz]

I got my 585 trial batch going. That stuff seems to have some decent floccing ability. I had to shake my hemocytometer sample like mad to get an accurate count.

Starting at 68 and going to ramp up from there. I also have a 3724/644 blend that I can report on shortly.

 

[bucketnative]

That's a good point. That's why 3711 would take a given wort down to 1.004, where as US-05 may stop at 1.010 in the same wort. So, they'd be 50/50 down to a certain gravity, then 3711 would keep chugging.

Maybe I'll split the batch and do it both ways, then report back here.

Update on splitting WY3522 and Belle Saison:

This was a rye saison with 50% 3522 slurry and 50% BS slurry, each about 50 mL. Pitched at 80F and temperature in the basement was 79F, so it is reasonable to assume that temperature of the ferment reached at least 85F. At the start of fermentation, the esters dominated, but after about a week, the whiffs off the airlock were distinctly saisonesque.

OG was 1.054 and FG was 1.000 after 3 weeks of fermentation.

Flavors at bottling were dry up front, but with an estery, peach-like finish from the 3522. I would say that the esters were a bit more dominant than were the typical BS saison flavors.

I primed this, targeting 2.7 vol with DME.

I'll update this with the "from the bottle" tasting notes once carbonation is finished, probably another two weeks at least. Right now, I can't tell if I will like this beer as much/more than a straight saison.

UPDATED: 10 OCT 2016 - I would say that the esters are somewhat inappropriate for a saison style. They are strong on the nose. Very peachy, and the taste profile goes from peach to saison yeast (BS) back to peach in the aftertaste. That's not to say that this is a bad combination, I am leaning towards the temperature being just too high for the 3522. I may try this again once the basement gets to around 67F (soon).

 

[tgmartin000]

Moops, what type of heat source are you using to raise fermentation temps? I think I'm gonna have to get some sort of heat source so I can brew some saisons this winter so I'm looking for recommendations.

I also like this one:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/fermwrap-heater.html

It was able to keep a saison at about 85, wrapped in blankets, in the dead of winter last year.

 

[Rdom]

Thanks, moops and tgmartin!

 

[rhys333]

Interesting. My first generation 3724 took 5 weeks to reach FG. My second generation is 4 DAYS in and only 4 points away from FG. Holy crap!

 

[grayhalladay]

Curious to see how this compared to my hothead from omega. Sounds like very similar origins if not the same strain. Huge temp range. Fruity and from Norwegian farmhouse roots

edit: after some more looking, it seems that this is a disputed topic, it may likely be, but there are those that do not think so. I am in the "likely is the same" camp.

Don't know if you have found this out yet, but yes this is the same strain. Lars Garshol sent this strain over to North America after his big Norwegian farmhouse tour. Its a super cool yeast and helps me brew pales and IPAs in AZ!