Experiences with different saison yeast blends

[tagz]

Looking forward to reading it if you get a chance to repost

Ha. Nothing mind blowing, but here's what I've learned after 6 months of working with it.

Generation and temp profile seem to be the most important factors. I tried several rounds with no airlock and they worked out well, but so did the airlock trials. The first few batches took longer, 10-14 days, but now it ferments down to 1.005 in 5 days. I also tried starting and finishing high (pitch at 80, ramp to 90+). No issues with fusels but I don't lie the ester character the high start produces. Now I start at 68, hold for 48, and then ramp to low 80s. I do lower gravity saisons in general but I would suggest keeping it to 1.035-1.040 for the first gen or two, until your culture gets used to fermenting outside the lab. Also, temp swings will really slow things down, so a controller/chamber is a must.

 

[rhys333]

Ha. Nothing mind blowing, but here's what I've learned after 6 months of working with it.

Generation and temp profile seem to be the most important factors. I tried several rounds with no airlock and they worked out well, but so did the airlock trials. The first few batches took longer, 10-14 days, but now it ferments down to 1.005 in 5 days. I also tried starting and finishing high (pitch at 80, ramp to 90+). No issues with fusels but I don't lie the ester character the high start produces. Now I start at 68, hold for 48, and then ramp to low 80s. I do lower gravity saisons in general but I would suggest keeping it to 1.035-1.040 for the first gen or two, until your culture gets used to fermenting outside the lab. Also, temp swings will really slow things down, so a controller/chamber is a must.

Great info, thanks. I think for the first effort I'll try a lowish 1.045 OG and either use a bare bones grist or do a saison wheat beer. I don't have a chamber, but my basement is stable and I can maintain low 80s with a brew belt and timer.

 

[trav77]

Looking back through my notes, I've done 3 saisons this year with that strain (well, technically with WLP565). All 3 mashed fairly low at 65 C. All 3 in the 1.050-1.055 range. All got down to 1.007-1.009. No kettle sugars. So not ridiculously dry like 3711 will get you but pretty good nonetheless. From what I've read DuPont doesn't just ferment with a single strain anyways, so in the spirit of this thread, I would late pitch some 3711 or Wallonian if you want super dry saison.

Also looking back at my recipes/notes: my official fermentation schedule is pitch @ 20 C. Hold 24 h then start ramping to 30 C over the course of 3 days. Something like + 2 C / 12 h. Hold there until FG.

I have never had this strain stall, even in 1st generation (albeit with starters) according to:
http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

Hope that helps.

 

[rhys333]

Hope that helps.

Helps a lot. Thanks. I made a starter yesterday and it either went hard and fast or stalled out on me. Little to no krausen formed though, so I'm thinking the latter. I've applied some heat, but its still flatlining. I'll just pitch tomorrow afternoon and see what happens.

 

[trav77]

You're fine. It's probably the former! That much yeast in a small volume goes hard and fast. Almost never get krausen on my starters.

 

[rhys333]

I usually get a healthy krausen on starters, but now I think about it, its usually 2nd, 3rd, gen etc. starters that show krausen. Smack packs do tend to perform less vigorously on 1st gen for me.

 

[bucketnative]

@m00ps or any others, I'm thinking of trying a blend of Belle Saison and WY3522. Why, because I have them, and I find the BS lacking a little more depth in flavor.

Does this sound like a reasonable blend (all I could find here was regarding WLP 545, as far as an Ardennes yeast)?

Would you recommending pitching them at the same time, or allowing the BS to ferment for a couple, three days prior to pitching the 3522?

 

[popsicleian]

@m00ps or any others, I'm thinking of trying a blend of Belle Saison and WY3522. Why, because I have them, and I find the BS lacking a little more depth in flavor.

Does this sound like a reasonable blend (all I could find here was regarding WLP 545, as far as an Ardennes yeast)?

Would you recommending pitching them at the same time, or allowing the BS to ferment for a couple, three days prior to pitching the 3522?

I've been thinking of doing something similar, with 530 and 3711. If I were you, I'd either pitch at the same time or do the 3522 first. I would think that if you pitched the Belle Saison first it would ferment most of what was fermentable and not leave the 3522 much to work with. I think you could get some nice flavors from the 3522, then finish it up with the Belle Saison for some of the saison notes and extra dryness. Just my two cents.

 

[bucketnative]

I would think that if you pitched the Belle Saison first it would ferment most of what was fermentable and not leave the 3522 much to work with.

That's what I was wondering about.

I don't run with temperature control on my fermentations. I had just finished up a dubbel with 3522 at 80F (Wyeast used to recommend up to 85F for this strain), and it had some interesting esters (banana) and some phenols (solvent). I am hoping to age it out for a few months in bottle before trying. I was worried that they might be too prolific in a blend.

I was thinking of possibly letting the BS start off, and then add 3522 after for some background notes. But then, the 3522 might very well be completely overrun by BS.

 

[brewski09]

I've been thinking of doing something similar, with 530 and 3711. If I were you, I'd either pitch at the same time or do the 3522 first. I would think that if you pitched the Belle Saison first it would ferment most of what was fermentable and not leave the 3522 much to work with. I think you could get some nice flavors from the 3522, then finish it up with the Belle Saison for some of the saison notes and extra dryness. Just my two cents.

+1 give the 3522 a head start and let the BS finish it off because it's not going to give other yeasts much of a chance to work.

 

[loctones]

Anyone have experience with Inland Island Brett Barrel III (INIS-913) and a saison strain? From what I have heard, this one is from Crooked Stave, and is supposedly the Bretty Drei that Chad isolated. I'm thinking of co-pitching with WLP565.

 

[m00ps]

That's what I was wondering about.

I don't run with temperature control on my fermentations. I had just finished up a dubbel with 3522 at 80F (Wyeast used to recommend up to 85F for this strain), and it had some interesting esters (banana) and some phenols (solvent). I am hoping to age it out for a few months in bottle before trying. I was worried that they might be too prolific in a blend.

I was thinking of possibly letting the BS start off, and then add 3522 after for some background notes. But then, the 3522 might very well be completely overrun by BS.

I would just toss them in at the same time. Every time I've used something aggressive like WY3711 it never takes over the profile. I usually actually taste more of the other strain.

The way I think about it is this (TL: DR)
When we call a yeast strain "aggressive" it doesnt necessarily mean it eats all the sugars at a much faster rate than other yeast strains. It means that it is capable of fermenting a larger range of sugars, from simple to complex. So when you pitch them both, the 3522 will still have access to all the sugars that it would normally be able to metabolize, but the Belle Saison will be the only one eating the more complex ones.

This would also explain why people report mashing high (154-155) and still getting low FGs using strains like WY3711 or Belle Saison. I am guessing that those yeasts are capable of metabolizing long chain sugars that run the whole range of what would be produced in normal brewing mash temp ranges. Whereas most other yeast strains wouldnt be able to eat the more complex sugars produced at higher mash temps. Kind of the same with Brett.

 

[bucketnative]

I would just toss them in at the same time. Every time I've used something aggressive like WY3711 it never takes over the profile. I usually actually taste more of the other strain.

The way I think about it is this (TL: DR)
When we call a yeast strain "aggressive" it doesnt necessarily mean it eats all the sugars at a much faster rate than other yeast strains. It means that it is capable of fermenting a larger range of sugars, from simple to complex. So when you pitch them both, the 3522 will still have access to all the sugars that it would normally be able to metabolize, but the Belle Saison will be the only one eating the more complex ones.

That's a good point. That's why 3711 would take a given wort down to 1.004, where as US-05 may stop at 1.010 in the same wort. So, they'd be 50/50 down to a certain gravity, then 3711 would keep chugging.

Maybe I'll split the batch and do it both ways, then report back here.

 

[brewski09]

Anyone have experience with Inland Island Brett Barrel III (INIS-913) and a saison strain? From what I have heard, this one is from Crooked Stave, and is supposedly the Bretty Drei that Chad isolated. I'm thinking of co-pitching with WLP565.

That's a beast of a Drei strain then and will do you right. Thx for the tip, I'll have to acquire some when I have enough capacity to keep it alive.

 

[rhys333]

Well my first 3724 batch is sitting at 71% attenuation after 12 days (1.043-1.012). Krausen has fallen and there's no activity. Started at 68F and ramped up to 83ish where it still sits. Apparently its going to be a p.i.t.a. after all.

 

[loctones]

That's a beast of a Drei strain then

Good to know, thanks. I'm leaning towards a 10 gal. batch. Half will get WLP565 and some Dirty Dozen I've had going for a while. The other half will get WLP565 and the Brett Barrel III.

 

[rhys333]

Well my first 3724 batch is sitting at 71% attenuation after 12 days (1.043-1.012). Krausen has fallen and there's no activity. Started at 68F and ramped up to 83ish where it still sits. Apparently its going to be a p.i.t.a. after all.

I'm actually thinking of racking this to secondary, harvesting the 3724, and pitching a half packet of Belle Saison. At this rate I'll be weeks or months in primary otherwise.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Yeah BS or 3711 will finish that up in a couple days

 

[Brewmasher]

I would just toss them in at the same time. Every time I've used something aggressive like WY3711 it never takes over the profile. I usually actually taste more of the other strain.

The way I think about it is this (TL: DR)
When we call a yeast strain "aggressive" it doesnt necessarily mean it eats all the sugars at a much faster rate than other yeast strains. It means that it is capable of fermenting a larger range of sugars, from simple to complex. So when you pitch them both, the 3522 will still have access to all the sugars that it would normally be able to metabolize, but the Belle Saison will be the only one eating the more complex ones.

This would also explain why people report mashing high (154-155) and still getting low FGs using strains like WY3711 or Belle Saison. I am guessing that those yeasts are capable of metabolizing long chain sugars that run the whole range of what would be produced in normal brewing mash temp ranges. Whereas most other yeast strains wouldnt be able to eat the more complex sugars produced at higher mash temps. Kind of the same with Brett.

How do you determine the pitch ratio? I have massive amounts of harvested 3711. If I made a starter with another yeast, and pitched some harvested 3711, how could I know if I am over pitching the 3711 vs the other yeast? Or does it really matter?

My current batch I pitched a starter of 3787 into 1.065 wort, harvested some krausen at 3 days, then pitched harvested 3711 with 2# sugar. My plan is to do the same next batch with the harvested 3787, but this time finish with the 3787/3711 slurry. My thinking is that the yeast harvested at the end of fermentation will have a higher concentration of 3711 cells because they continue to work after the other yeast gives up.

I may try other yeasts, harvesting the pure strain krausen to have on hand, and finishing with the previous batch's slurry. This way I can develop a "house yeast" using the pure strains to keep some balance.

 

[phishie]

I would be interested in your advice on using 3711 to specifically target lemon & pepper flavors while avoiding banana flavor. I read the first few pages and last few so please forgive me if you've answered this already.

Current plan I have in my head is to pitch at 60 or 65 and ferment in 72 ambient. No other temp control would be used.

 

[tagz]

You shouldn't have any trouble with banana esters if you're using 3711. You might want to try to control things for the first 24-48 hrs. 72 ambient can mean 78-80 internal. It's ok to end that high but I would try to hold it lower at the beginning.

 

[phishie]

You shouldn't have any trouble with banana esters if you're using 3711. You might want to try to control things for the first 24-48 hrs. 72 ambient can mean 78-80 internal. It's ok to end that high but I would try to hold it lower at the beginning.

Cool thanks. I want to avoid banana esters and fusel alcohols, although I'm less worried about the latter as I'll only be brewing a 6.5% ABV saison.

Hopefully pitching at 60-65 and keeping in a water bath for the first 24-48 hours will achieve that.

 

[rhys333]

Cool thanks. I want to avoid banana esters and fusel alcohols, although I'm less worried about the latter as I'll only be brewing a 6.5% ABV saison.

Hopefully pitching at 60-65 and keeping in a water bath for the first 24-48 hours will achieve that.

Be prepared for 88-90% attenuation from that sucker. Wyeast says 77-83%. Lies!

 

[botigol]

My last batch with WY3711 had 88% attenuation...this is the lowest attenuation that I've seen with it!

 

[brewski09]

^+1 3711 will attenuate about 90%

 

[Braufessor]

Photo of one of my saisons. I used a combo of 3724 and 3711. Got some banana in it.... Thinking that came from the 3724. Not overwhelming... But it is there. Weird as it is.... Getting it a bit light struck gets rid of the banana and it is really good. I did a second batch that I bottled with a couple types of Brett.... Wlp645 and oly210... We'll see how that turns out. Going to do two more. One that is exclusively 3711. The other will be primary with a blend of 3711,3724, wlp645 and oly210.

 

[rhys333]

Well my 3724 wheat beer has been in primary for 28 days and I'm still only at 83% attenuation (1.043-1.007). Its a bit of a p.i.t.a. I did include 8% oats in the grist but I would have expected it to have gone lower and finished by now. Also, that saison funk is there, but kinda muted. I'm a little underwhelmed by this strain at the moment.

 

[hopbrad]

I have a saison with the OYL saisonstein, suppose to be a hybrid of 3274 and 3711.
OG 1.064
FG 1.004
95% viking pils and 5% table sugar.
warrior for bittering
saaz and sty goldings for flavor/aroma
23 ibus
pitched 65F and finished low 80s.

dry but not overly so. some spice and clove, mostly fruit. bubblegum aroma. apple/pear too. pretty solid combo of the 2 strains.

 

[Jonkl]

@m00ps Have you done much with the Saisonstein's Monster from OYL? I've been wondering if that would make a decent quasi-blend.

I've had two experiments with this one. It's hard to pin down a character, because the first was a Farmhouse IPA with Nelson and Pacific Jade, and the other is one I brewed with Yucca petals. The yeast played more of a supporting role in both. But, numbers-wise, I'm only getting 80-85% apparent attenuation. It gets below 1.010, but not much lower. Still a fairly dry finish, but not as much as I was expecting.

Next up is a more basic saison, so hopefully I'll have better notes on the actual character of the yeast hybrid.

 

[WI_Wino]

I've had two experiments with this one. It's hard to pin down a character, because the first was a Farmhouse IPA with Nelson and Pacific Jade, and the other is one I brewed with Yucca petals. The yeast played more of a supporting role in both. But, numbers-wise, I'm only getting 80-85% apparent attenuation. It gets below 1.010, but not much lower. Still a fairly dry finish, but not as much as I was expecting.

Next up is a more basic saison, so hopefully I'll have better notes on the actual character of the yeast hybrid.

I've used the Omega hybrid twice with good attenuation:

First (pitch w/ starter) took 1.050 to 1.004 (83% pils, 10% munich, 5% wheat, 1% caramunich). Pitched at 72 F, fermented at 70 F room temp.

Second (repitched from slurry) took 1.054 to 1.002 (47% 2 row, 36% pils, 5% table sugar, 5% wheat, 4% c40, 3% aromatic, 1% special B). Pitched at 62 F, fermented at 70 F room temp.