Experiences with different saison yeast blends
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m00ps
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We'll make sure you get some first hand experience with mine!
sounds good, always up for rambling some more about farmhouse ales
Peeling kiwi is a breeze.....cut in half and scoop out the flesh with a spoon as one piece.....
I'm interested as well. I've noticed my saisons (draft only) loose some character once they drop clear. They start with a big spicy/fruity yeast profile, but the flavors are much more subdued after a few weeks. I get a more singular pear-like aroma while some of the saison character stays in the flavor. Perhaps bottle conditioning just keeps more yeast in suspension?
Did the same simply because I can't afford to take kegs out of circulation for extended periods of time. Having a beer in a keg for half a year means having to buy a replacement keg, then another, then another and so on. Bottles come cheaper! (and last longer as I have to store them away from home).
I want to brew a fruity saison next weekend, I have my yeast selection figured out...anyone have a go-to recipe they'd care to suggest? I don't think my LHBS has spelt malt. Also, what are some of the fruiter hops you guys have enjoyed? Thanks!
The grainbill isn't super critical. Additions of wheat and oats will add to the mouthfeel, spelt or vienna with add a subtle flavor, a touch of caramel or midnight wheat will allow you to adjust color. Otherwise, get a nice Pilsner malt as your base and make it the focus. I just switched over to Dingemans (from Avangaard) and tend to make it +90% of the bill.
As for fruity hops, Nelson will give you what your looking for, but just keep in mind that a little goes a long way. It's a super flavorful hop.
They were pretty easy with a potato peeler. I never worry about the fruit in a clean beer if its been frozen for a while.
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m00ps
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Agree with @tagz here. My basic approach to throwing together a typical saison is as follows
- 10-30% wheat/rye/oats
- 5-20% flaked rye/wheat/oats
- 5-10% cane sugar (I usually just have 1lb for a 5-6gal batch)
- rest is pilsner, bit of acid malt for pH
I've gone from 50% pilsner to 100% and its all good. Yeast (and lack of specialty malts) seems most important
For hops, really any of the new fruity hops work well. I tend to not use some of the more aggressive ones like citra, mosaic, simcoe, galaxy etc. Nelson and sorachi ace seem to be an exception in terms of aggressiveness.
I've had good luck using reasonably large amounts of the following in saisons without overpowering the yeast, if you are wanting a soft fruity saison
- pacific gem
- meridian
- motueka
- belma
- hallertau blanc
- azzaca
- southern cross
woops, I ended up getting some mosaic and motueka. I'll try to only use a .5 oz of mosaic for bittering and try a late boil schedule for the motueka and the rest of mosaic.
WI_Wino
Well-Known Member
No direct experience but there is a kiwi fruit base for wine available
http://www.ritebrew.com/product-p/827388.htm
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m00ps
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I doubt Mosaic would ruin a saison. But I was really excited to try Anchorage's Mosaic Brett Saison, but the hop character just was too prominent and didnt mesh well with the rest of the beer to me
Hey moops. I'm doing a mixed culture pitch with 3724 and a starter of saison hands dregs. What temp do you think I should run it? I typically start my DuPont at 75-80, but I started this one lower (68) so I don't get off flavors from the Brett/bugs. How quickly and how high would you ramp?
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m00ps
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Man, that's a good beer. I've only had it once when I received two tired hands growlers as gifts. Still have those growlers. I wish I coudl talk with the brewery on their yeast handling
I wasn't aware that saison hands had brett in it. I tried searching around, and it wasnt too clear. Only some reviews mention "brett" character, but you never know what that means or how experienced they are. Either way, it doesnt seem very prominent. Im not sure how they ferment it, but I would guess that any of their wood aged stuff has a bit of brett
Anyway, when Ive done mixed fermentations with brett, I usually dont go as high as a normally do. Usually, I go into the 90s for maximum attenuation, but the brett will really do that either way. I used to just let it free rise, but more recently, I've waited a week then forced it to the low 80s until I needed the space for something else. No way of knowing how much work was done at the higher temperature, but I havent gotten any bad fusel flavors from pushing brett that high yet
I made a saison a couple years ago with Motueka and El Dorado that after some aging time I liked a lot. It was also only my second or third saison and only a year into home brewing so I've learned a lot since then that might have made it better.
Here's the post I made for that, https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=459174. I was planning to make it again this year, but getting house ready to sell has left me with little time and no where to ferment since i don't want beer fermenting when people are looking at the house...
If I get a good offer shortly after it's on the market I'm hoping ot knock out a quick Pale Ale or IPA and 1 or 2 Saisons for summer before we move.
Good info. Thanks. I'll probably let it hang in the low 70s for a bit and then ramp up to 80.
Not sure how long ago you had the saison hands, but I've read that it has changed a lot over time as they let the culture evolve naturally. Anyway, I had my first taste a few weeks ago and was blown away. Nice acidity, peppery/fruity funk, good mouthfeel from the oats and wheat - great balance. Its what I imagine a traditional farmhouse ale tasted like 100 years ago.
It was probably cleaner in the past but pretty sure there is a good mix of bugs in there now. Here's my starter!
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1463613550.219992.jpg
Interesting. Thanks for that bolus. I'm planning on doing a 50/50 mix 1oz mix of motueka and mosaic for bittering, then .25 oz around 10 min, and the last .25 of each at flameout to see what that does. I didn't buy too much in hops cause I'm not a huge fan of bitterness but I'm interested in getting more flavor nearer to flameout from the hops.
Texconsinite
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Love this thread! As a TX brewer without Temp control (yet) WY3711 has been my go-to yeast for some time, with great results. Excited to try blending it, thanks for all the info, gives me a good starting point.
I DO have some experience making fruit Saisons, tho so wanted ot add my 2 cents there
The Kiwi saison sounds interesting. I once made a Lime Rye Saison with Sorachi and a container of Simply Limeaide in the secondary. turned out very interesting. Very Lime-y, but the rye seemed to bring out a little of the Dill in the Sorachi over time which im kinda +/- on
Also did a Nelson saison batch with White Grape juice in secondary. Turned out well, like a white wine flavor, but since i only made two gallons it was gone far too soon.
Hope that helps
I DO have some experience making fruit Saisons, tho so wanted ot add my 2 cents there
The Kiwi saison sounds interesting. I once made a Lime Rye Saison with Sorachi and a container of Simply Limeaide in the secondary. turned out very interesting. Very Lime-y, but the rye seemed to bring out a little of the Dill in the Sorachi over time which im kinda +/- on
Also did a Nelson saison batch with White Grape juice in secondary. Turned out well, like a white wine flavor, but since i only made two gallons it was gone far too soon.
Hope that helps
Good info Texcon! I think this summer I'll dabble with adding some kind of grape/fruit juice into secondary for a saison. Did fermentation kick off again after adding the juice?
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m00ps
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Mmm... ramen noodles
Ive had really good results using Motueka in saisons FWIW. I would lean more towards that than mosaic if you are doing both
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m00ps
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Updates:
WY3711 & INISBC-291
This one is in my top 3 so far of combos I need to investigate further. This one was wheat/flaked wheat based and used idaho 7 hops which seems good for a saison given their description. Fruity, little tart, a bit of bready malt in the middle, but the finish is spot on where i'd want it. WY3711 is definitely one of the best strains to blend with
YB Wallonian Farmhouse & WLP585
This was the pink peppercorn experiment. I figured the tartness of WLP585 would go well with the fruity berry & spice of the pink peppercorns. Wallonia Farmhouse also brings very high attenuation and some rustic spiciness. Im bottling this tomorrow. Samples tasted great, nice balance of fruit and pepper. You can treally tell peppercorns were added unless you are familiar with pink peppercorns. I ended up adding a total of 2oz. 1 at flameout, 1 to the fermentor (they are much less dense than normal peppercorns. Pink ones are actually a type of berry)
WLP565 & INISBC-291
Bottled this a week ago. It used EXP527 hops, which ive used in 2 saisons before. Its a great hop for traditional saisons where you want a bit more than something like saaz or ekg. Its definitely spicy, with some stone fruit flavors, at least IME, and its got a high alpha%. But its not overwhleming. I used rye in this, coupled with the WLP565, the finish is a bit spicy and malty. Not entirely my goal that Im shooting for, but SWMBO loved it. I'll report back with the fully conditioned review
WY3711 & Omega Hothead
So this is the Kiwi farmhouse IPA experiment. I tasted it before transferring onto the kiwis, and it tasted great. More fruity than most saisons (definitely from the hothead). Out of everything ive tried, hothead, wy3711, and WLP585 are my 3 most successful strains to blend with.
I couldnt find packaged frozen kiwis so I bought 4lbs of them (turned out to be 26 fruits), froze them, peeled the skin off, dipped in starsan, diced them, and tossed them into the carboy. I didnt use a bag for the seeds since I have a fine mash bag I put over my siphon for dry hopped beers. Here's a pic, really gooey right now
WY3711 & INISBC-291
This one is in my top 3 so far of combos I need to investigate further. This one was wheat/flaked wheat based and used idaho 7 hops which seems good for a saison given their description. Fruity, little tart, a bit of bready malt in the middle, but the finish is spot on where i'd want it. WY3711 is definitely one of the best strains to blend with
YB Wallonian Farmhouse & WLP585
This was the pink peppercorn experiment. I figured the tartness of WLP585 would go well with the fruity berry & spice of the pink peppercorns. Wallonia Farmhouse also brings very high attenuation and some rustic spiciness. Im bottling this tomorrow. Samples tasted great, nice balance of fruit and pepper. You can treally tell peppercorns were added unless you are familiar with pink peppercorns. I ended up adding a total of 2oz. 1 at flameout, 1 to the fermentor (they are much less dense than normal peppercorns. Pink ones are actually a type of berry)
WLP565 & INISBC-291
Bottled this a week ago. It used EXP527 hops, which ive used in 2 saisons before. Its a great hop for traditional saisons where you want a bit more than something like saaz or ekg. Its definitely spicy, with some stone fruit flavors, at least IME, and its got a high alpha%. But its not overwhleming. I used rye in this, coupled with the WLP565, the finish is a bit spicy and malty. Not entirely my goal that Im shooting for, but SWMBO loved it. I'll report back with the fully conditioned review
WY3711 & Omega Hothead
So this is the Kiwi farmhouse IPA experiment. I tasted it before transferring onto the kiwis, and it tasted great. More fruity than most saisons (definitely from the hothead). Out of everything ive tried, hothead, wy3711, and WLP585 are my 3 most successful strains to blend with.
I couldnt find packaged frozen kiwis so I bought 4lbs of them (turned out to be 26 fruits), froze them, peeled the skin off, dipped in starsan, diced them, and tossed them into the carboy. I didnt use a bag for the seeds since I have a fine mash bag I put over my siphon for dry hopped beers. Here's a pic, really gooey right now
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m00ps
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Every time Ive added fruit or juice to a beer, the fermentation has kicked off a bit. It will depend on the sugar content and amount you add. Its a good thing if you are transferring to a secondary since itll clear the headspace of O2
hopbrad
Well-Known Member
Moops - whats your favorite saison strain overall?
I head to the US this week and am looking to bring down a liquid saison strain to add to my bank. I've used Belle up until now for the ease of bringing down dry yeast, its decent. I also used the 568 blend a few years ago and that was nice, a bit more on the spice side from what i remember, but i didnt harvest it. The OYL500 blend sounds really nice. Otherwise was thinking 3711. or possibly wlp566. Thoughts?
I head to the US this week and am looking to bring down a liquid saison strain to add to my bank. I've used Belle up until now for the ease of bringing down dry yeast, its decent. I also used the 568 blend a few years ago and that was nice, a bit more on the spice side from what i remember, but i didnt harvest it. The OYL500 blend sounds really nice. Otherwise was thinking 3711. or possibly wlp566. Thoughts?
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m00ps
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So far, here are my favorite yeasts:
WY3711 French Saison - super attenuation levels, leaves a very soft full body despite the low FG, crisp tart lemony finish. A bit monotonous on its own but great for blending with other yeasts to round out the finish
WLP585 Belgian Saison III - this is a seasonal offering from White Labs so its a bit harder to find. Its the most tart clean saccharomyces strain I've come across. Flavor is mostly raspberry / blueberry to me. Nice, biting crisp finish.
Omega Hothead - I wasn't expecting to like this one so much. It is VERY fruity, which makes it really interesting to mix with. It's been awhile since I tasted the starter wort by itself, but I guess I would describe it as a fruit cup kinda thing. Peach, cherry, apple, its all over the place. Its also extremely flocculant, especially compared to most farmhouse style yeasts.
INISBC-291 Farmhouse Ale - this is a very small yeast company in Colorado, so its not widely available. I definitely get the strawberry and rustic hay character that the manufacturer describes
hopsandhops
Well-Known Member
As someone relatively new to brewing and enjoying saisons, this is awesome info. Thanks m00ps!
tgmartin000
Well-Known Member
I gotta put in a plug for WY3726 - the Farmhouse ale strain. It's from the private collection and only available a few months a year, but I think it's my favorite saison strain.
I believe it's also available year-round from Imperial Organic Yeast as their rustic strain, but I haven't tried that variety.
I believe it's also available year-round from Imperial Organic Yeast as their rustic strain, but I haven't tried that variety.
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m00ps
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Im still kicking myself for irreversibly blending it in my first saison yeast trial. I remember making one beer with it before, but didnt take great notes. Any comments on its character? I thought I remembered it being more peppery than most saison yeasts
tgmartin000
Well-Known Member
Preach, brother! I am moving on Friday, and decided to toss my 9 month old strain of it, rather than trying to harvest and store it.
I'm currently drinking a rye saison that used it, and it's definitely heavy on the pepper compared to some other strains, and it also has a really great phenol balance to it. It attenuates well too, I just kegged a basic saison that went from 1050ish down to 1.0025.
It's got more character than 3711, and is easier to use than the dupont strain. Highly recommended!
I used it in one of my favorite beers last year then built it back up from the dregs in my last bottle this winter. Turned out awesome again. Definitely going to buy more of it this summer.
If all goes well, @GQT will be sending me a sample of this one in a week or two. I'm pretty excited. Brewing in a hot environment with weak fermentation control, I could definitely use another yeast (after Belle Saison) that can handle warm temps, and the flavor profile of Omega Hothead sounds pretty appealing to me for a fairly wide variety of styles.
How saison-like is it on its own? I'm thinking roughly 50/50 pils/rye mashed low, bittered in the mid-twenties and given a couple ounces of late hops - maybe Lemon Drop or Hüll Melon for something a bit fruity? Having no experience with the yeast and little experience with saisons/farmhouse ales, I'm kind've shooting in the dark here so I could use some advice.
trav77
Well-Known Member
I would dial back the rye (I assume you mean rye malt and not flaked). I typically use 15-25%. Also don't forget the rice hulls if using higher amounts.
Haven't used Lemon Drop or Hull Melon but they sound like they would work well. Other good choices (from your sig) would be Citra or Sorachi Ace although I would keep the hops to a more background role if you're trying to get a sense of the yeast for the first time. I don't love the latter ever since someone pointed out the dill flavour and now that's all I taste.
I tend to shoot for 30-35 IBU in most of my saisons but it's to your taste.
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m00ps
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Omega on its own is pretty much a fruit bowl. It almost tastes like a 100% brettanomyces beer but less weird funky esters floating around. You could definitely make a great saison with just that, but one of the most successful ones I've done to date was WY3711/Hothead. Belle Saison is similar enough to 3711 that I think it would turn out much the same. The 3711 got it to finish very low and have a crisp bite at the end where the hothead kind of carried the fruit flavors forward in the middle. I think this one used pacific gem and meridian.
As for the hops, I'd probably go with hull melon over lemon drop, at least with this yeast. I've used lemon drop in saisons before, I would use it sparingly, it easily gets an herbal character too it along with the citrus. Meridian (another very lemony hop) on the other hand, is great in saisons IME. Its soft sugary lemon works great with most saison yeasts. Hull Melon I've used a lot, but not in saisons. Its definitely not too overpowering and I think it could definitely work for a fruity, but non aggressive, saison
For the grain bill, I wouldnt go 50% Rye. Ive found if you go too much over 30%, it gives a very thick, viscous, mucus-like beer that isnt pleasant to drink. You can fix this by doing a protein rest or something. But I'd definitely add cane sugar to help combat this effect too. Maybe 50%pils/ 30%rye / 15%flaked something / 5% cane sugar
jmill
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Curious if anyone here has used WLP568 for their saison? I picked up a vial of it to do a saison this weekend so I can take advantage of the TX heat before it gets in triple digits.
White Labs advertises it as a Belgian Ale and Saison blend that balances out some of their other fruit-heavy offerings and also is a quicker to complete fermentation than some of the others.
White Labs advertises it as a Belgian Ale and Saison blend that balances out some of their other fruit-heavy offerings and also is a quicker to complete fermentation than some of the others.
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m00ps
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DISCLAIMER - I have never used this yeast blend. Feel free to disregard as needed
http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/components-of-wl-568-saison-blend.22443/
Sounds like its WLP530 for the belgian part and WLP565 for the saison part. This would make sense given the reports of the huge krausen issue (WLP530) and the spicy flavors (WLP530 & WLP565). Interestingly, that is actually what modern times uses for their Lomaland saison. Except they only use a tiny bit of WLP530
This is actually how I have been making my most successful strong belgians. I usually use WY3864 (Unibroue) and pick a saison yeast to help get it very dry. WLP566 is usually my to-go since its not too farmhousey. I try to pitch 2:1 with less saison yeast. Works great for dubbels and tripels so you dont have that off putting sweet finish that so many tend to have
I've only used rye a couple times and since I have just enough rye malt to go 50/50 with pils and I see 50/50 base malt/wheat malt recipes a lot, I thought rye could be treated the same way. Good thing if I cut it back is that I have more for a rebrew if it turns out well.
Sorachi gives me straight dill as well, so I prefer not to use it late. Citra is delightful but seems like it would be easy to overdo - maybe a 20g whirlpool if I use it? I used a bit of late Lemon Drop in the saison I just bottled so I'll have a better idea of how I like it after I crack the first bottle in a couple days. The Hüll Melon is earmarked for late and dry hop additions in my next APA, but I'll be Stateside for a month and a half before I brew that so I can pick up more if I need to. As for IBUs, 30-35 is always a nice spot to settle in at; my inexperience with the saison style made me a bit uncertain about going that high on a saison, but if it works for you I may go there as well.
The "fruit bowl" descriptor sounds appealing. I'll want my first Hothead brew to be pure, but I might take a gallon of the wort and ferment it with a mix of Hothead and Belle Saison in a separate fermenter, since I've enjoyed reading your posts here in this thread and would definitely trust your judgement as someone with a lot of experience in blending yeast for saisons.
The advice on hops and grainbill is definitely appreciated as well. Looks like I was over-shooting planning for 50/50. What differences have you seen between flaked oats, barley, and rye? Ingredient lists often use the same descriptors for all three so I don't really know if I should just go with oats because they're easiest to get (supermarket versus ordering online) or if there are strong arguments for using flaked barley or rye versus oats.
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m00ps
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For the strong belgians I was talking about? Yeah
The only times I delay the pitching of a second yeast is when I want to minimize flavor impact from the yeast. With those, I pick a strain that will work with the overall character of the beer im shooting for
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m00ps
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I havent used flaked barley in a saison before and I've only used oats once in one, but I have experience using them in various other styles. What they all have in common seems to be that they help with body and head retention. This is just my personal experience with each:
Flaked barley - least flavor contribution (basically zero compared to regular ol' 2 row) but most head retention, decent body. I use 1lb of this in about every stout I make
Flaked Rye - has that signature Rye spicy flavor, im guessing it can impart that same gloopy body if used in large amount like regular malted rye
Flaked oats - biggest body contribution, gives a slick mouthfeel to the beer, least head retention of the 3. I think the bit of oils that are usually in them contributes to the mouthfeel and a bit less help with head retention.
Rye - regular malted rye has the most spicy flavor contribution. It definitely helps with body/head a bit like wheat does, but not as much as their flaked forms.
Really, any of them work in a saison. You just might not want to go up to 50% of them. I've done a sour that was a bit over 50% wheat/flaked wheat, but that was to make sure it was not too thin since I knew it was finishing below 1.000.
trav77
Well-Known Member
You can definitely go 50-60% wheat although that is generally more typical of a weizen or witbier. Rye has high levels of beta glucan that will make your beer fairly slick if used in high proportion. Plus it has a stronger flavour than wheat.
Who knows maybe a 50% rye beer is delicious. Personally I like it as a secondary flavour. Really in saison I want the yeast to stand out.
Who knows maybe a 50% rye beer is delicious. Personally I like it as a secondary flavour. Really in saison I want the yeast to stand out.
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m00ps
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updates:
WLP585 & INISBC-291 / WLP585 & Omega Hothead
After letting both of these mature, and having other brewers try them, the 585/291 is the standout. This was the first beer I used spelt in and I can definitely taste its contribution to the final product in the slightly nutty finish. The 585/hothead one used flaked wheat and flaked corn. The other difference is that the spelt one used a small amount of noble-ish hops while the latter used a decent amount of pacific gem and motueka.
So, in rare fashion for my avant garde style of brewing, I've decided to do another iteration of each of these blends with the same grain bill as a sort of semi-controlled experiment. I decided to go with using spelt for both of them. I'm using noble-type hops in order to be able to taste the yeast as much as I can. I brewed the 585/291 version over the weekend.
WLP565 & INISBC-291
I didn;t really know what to expect from this one. Its currently fully carbed but still tastes a bit young. The flavor is definitely more towards the 291 and has a bit of bubblegum going on which I think will fade. I do get some spice in the middle from the 565 though
WLP585 / YB Wallonian Farmhouse
This was the pink peppercorn saison. I thought the tart berry flavors of 585 would go great with the pink peppercorns since they actually are some sort of berry. I added a bit more as a dry hops of sorts because I wanted to be able to taste them more. The peppercorns seems to bring out the 585 flavors to the forefront while the finish is more smooth, spicy, and malty from the wallonian farmhouse. I'm guessing itll become more crisp and tart once it matures
WY3711 & Omega Hothead, Kiwi Farmhouse IPA
I'm nto expecting to discover too much about the yeast combo from this one since the amount of hops, plus the added kiwi fruit, will definitely cloud the yeast contribution. The sample I took at 14 days post-pitch, when I transferred onto the kiwis was nice and dry and almost like raspberry lemonade. I contribute that to the flavors I've come to expect from both of these yeasts. I bottled this over the weekend and there was a crap ton of sediment from the amount of kiwi and dry hop residue. Tried to upload a pic, but the server isnt liking it at the moment...
WLP585 & INISBC-291 / WLP585 & Omega Hothead
After letting both of these mature, and having other brewers try them, the 585/291 is the standout. This was the first beer I used spelt in and I can definitely taste its contribution to the final product in the slightly nutty finish. The 585/hothead one used flaked wheat and flaked corn. The other difference is that the spelt one used a small amount of noble-ish hops while the latter used a decent amount of pacific gem and motueka.
So, in rare fashion for my avant garde style of brewing, I've decided to do another iteration of each of these blends with the same grain bill as a sort of semi-controlled experiment. I decided to go with using spelt for both of them. I'm using noble-type hops in order to be able to taste the yeast as much as I can. I brewed the 585/291 version over the weekend.
WLP565 & INISBC-291
I didn;t really know what to expect from this one. Its currently fully carbed but still tastes a bit young. The flavor is definitely more towards the 291 and has a bit of bubblegum going on which I think will fade. I do get some spice in the middle from the 565 though
WLP585 / YB Wallonian Farmhouse
This was the pink peppercorn saison. I thought the tart berry flavors of 585 would go great with the pink peppercorns since they actually are some sort of berry. I added a bit more as a dry hops of sorts because I wanted to be able to taste them more. The peppercorns seems to bring out the 585 flavors to the forefront while the finish is more smooth, spicy, and malty from the wallonian farmhouse. I'm guessing itll become more crisp and tart once it matures
WY3711 & Omega Hothead, Kiwi Farmhouse IPA
I'm nto expecting to discover too much about the yeast combo from this one since the amount of hops, plus the added kiwi fruit, will definitely cloud the yeast contribution. The sample I took at 14 days post-pitch, when I transferred onto the kiwis was nice and dry and almost like raspberry lemonade. I contribute that to the flavors I've come to expect from both of these yeasts. I bottled this over the weekend and there was a crap ton of sediment from the amount of kiwi and dry hop residue. Tried to upload a pic, but the server isnt liking it at the moment...
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