Experiences with different saison yeast blends

[MannyEdwards]

@MannyEdwards
I'd be interested to hear how your saisons hold up that you age. I stopped kegging any of my saisons, or any belgians for that matter, because I felt like the bottles lasted longer with the natural carbonation. The few saisons I kegged and bottled (purged using my beer gun) didnt hold up nearly as well as the older ones I had bottle carbed.

We'll make sure you get some first hand experience with mine!

 

[m00ps]

We'll make sure you get some first hand experience with mine!

sounds good, always up for rambling some more about farmhouse ales

 

[kempshark]

How easy were they to peel? If I was making this a sour, i wouldnt be worried at all about contamination. But maybe the amount of hops in it will protect it if I need to cube my own stuff

Good call on the bag to contain it

Peeling kiwi is a breeze.....cut in half and scoop out the flesh with a spoon as one piece.....

 

[tagz]

@MannyEdwards
I'd be interested to hear how your saisons hold up that you age. I stopped kegging any of my saisons, or any belgians for that matter, because I felt like the bottles lasted longer with the natural carbonation. The few saisons I kegged and bottled (purged using my beer gun) didnt hold up nearly as well as the older ones I had bottle carbed.

I'm interested as well. I've noticed my saisons (draft only) loose some character once they drop clear. They start with a big spicy/fruity yeast profile, but the flavors are much more subdued after a few weeks. I get a more singular pear-like aroma while some of the saison character stays in the flavor. Perhaps bottle conditioning just keeps more yeast in suspension?

 

[GQT]

I stopped kegging any of my saisons, or any belgians for that matter

Did the same simply because I can't afford to take kegs out of circulation for extended periods of time. Having a beer in a keg for half a year means having to buy a replacement keg, then another, then another and so on. Bottles come cheaper! (and last longer as I have to store them away from home).

 

[Skuee]

I want to brew a fruity saison next weekend, I have my yeast selection figured out...anyone have a go-to recipe they'd care to suggest? I don't think my LHBS has spelt malt. Also, what are some of the fruiter hops you guys have enjoyed? Thanks!

 

[tagz]

I want to brew a fruity saison next weekend, I have my yeast selection figured out...anyone have a go-to recipe they'd care to suggest? I don't think my LHBS has spelt malt. Also, what are some of the fruiter hops you guys have enjoyed? Thanks!

The grainbill isn't super critical. Additions of wheat and oats will add to the mouthfeel, spelt or vienna with add a subtle flavor, a touch of caramel or midnight wheat will allow you to adjust color. Otherwise, get a nice Pilsner malt as your base and make it the focus. I just switched over to Dingemans (from Avangaard) and tend to make it +90% of the bill.

As for fruity hops, Nelson will give you what your looking for, but just keep in mind that a little goes a long way. It's a super flavorful hop.

 

[chrilr]

How easy were they to peel? If I was making this a sour, i wouldnt be worried at all about contamination. But maybe the amount of hops in it will protect it if I need to cube my own stuff

Good call on the bag to contain it

They were pretty easy with a potato peeler. I never worry about the fruit in a clean beer if its been frozen for a while.

 

[m00ps]

I want to brew a fruity saison next weekend, I have my yeast selection figured out...anyone have a go-to recipe they'd care to suggest? I don't think my LHBS has spelt malt. Also, what are some of the fruiter hops you guys have enjoyed? Thanks!

Agree with @tagz here. My basic approach to throwing together a typical saison is as follows
- 10-30% wheat/rye/oats
- 5-20% flaked rye/wheat/oats
- 5-10% cane sugar (I usually just have 1lb for a 5-6gal batch)
- rest is pilsner, bit of acid malt for pH

I've gone from 50% pilsner to 100% and its all good. Yeast (and lack of specialty malts) seems most important

For hops, really any of the new fruity hops work well. I tend to not use some of the more aggressive ones like citra, mosaic, simcoe, galaxy etc. Nelson and sorachi ace seem to be an exception in terms of aggressiveness.

I've had good luck using reasonably large amounts of the following in saisons without overpowering the yeast, if you are wanting a soft fruity saison
- pacific gem
- meridian
- motueka
- belma
- hallertau blanc
- azzaca
- southern cross

 

[Skuee]

Agree with @tagz here. My basic approach to throwing together a typical saison is as follows
- 10-30% wheat/rye/oats
- 5-20% flaked rye/wheat/oats
- 5-10% cane sugar (I usually just have 1lb for a 5-6gal batch)
- rest is pilsner, bit of acid malt for pH

I've gone from 50% pilsner to 100% and its all good. Yeast (and lack of specialty malts) seems most important

For hops, really any of the new fruity hops work well. I tend to not use some of the more aggressive ones like citra, mosaic, simcoe, galaxy etc. Nelson and sorachi ace seem to be an exception in terms of aggressiveness.

I've had good luck using reasonably large amounts of the following in saisons without overpowering the yeast, if you are wanting a soft fruity saison
- pacific gem
- meridian
- motueka
- belma
- hallertau blanc
- azzaca
- southern cross

woops, I ended up getting some mosaic and motueka. I'll try to only use a .5 oz of mosaic for bittering and try a late boil schedule for the motueka and the rest of mosaic.

 

[WI_Wino]

As I side note, I've got a farmhouse IPA fermenting which I want to add kiwi to. I've been searching around and mostly found threads on a kiwi-witbier. The published recipe says to add them late boil but I want to add them into the fermentor to preserve them. I would like to add packaged frozen kiwi since it worked great with a blackberry sour I did. I've added fruit to there fermentor before a number of times with good results, but the fuzz on the kiwi skin really makes me worried. If I cant find frozen kiwi at the store, I'm thinking of getting fresh ones and freezing them to remove the skin easily. Then I will chop them and dunk in starsan before placing in a secondary.

Anyone have any experience here?

No direct experience but there is a kiwi fruit base for wine available

http://www.ritebrew.com/product-p/827388.htm

 

[m00ps]

woops, I ended up getting some mosaic and motueka. I'll try to only use a .5 oz of mosaic for bittering and try a late boil schedule for the motueka and the rest of mosaic.

I doubt Mosaic would ruin a saison. But I was really excited to try Anchorage's Mosaic Brett Saison, but the hop character just was too prominent and didnt mesh well with the rest of the beer to me

 

[tagz]

Hey moops. I'm doing a mixed culture pitch with 3724 and a starter of saison hands dregs. What temp do you think I should run it? I typically start my DuPont at 75-80, but I started this one lower (68) so I don't get off flavors from the Brett/bugs. How quickly and how high would you ramp?

 

[m00ps]

Hey moops. I'm doing a mixed culture pitch with 3724 and a starter of saison hands dregs. What temp do you think I should run it? I typically start my DuPont at 75-80, but I started this one lower (68) so I don't get off flavors from the Brett/bugs. How quickly and how high would you ramp?

Man, that's a good beer. I've only had it once when I received two tired hands growlers as gifts. Still have those growlers. I wish I coudl talk with the brewery on their yeast handling

I wasn't aware that saison hands had brett in it. I tried searching around, and it wasnt too clear. Only some reviews mention "brett" character, but you never know what that means or how experienced they are. Either way, it doesnt seem very prominent. Im not sure how they ferment it, but I would guess that any of their wood aged stuff has a bit of brett

Anyway, when Ive done mixed fermentations with brett, I usually dont go as high as a normally do. Usually, I go into the 90s for maximum attenuation, but the brett will really do that either way. I used to just let it free rise, but more recently, I've waited a week then forced it to the low 80s until I needed the space for something else. No way of knowing how much work was done at the higher temperature, but I havent gotten any bad fusel flavors from pushing brett that high yet

 

[bolus14]

woops, I ended up getting some mosaic and motueka. I'll try to only use a .5 oz of mosaic for bittering and try a late boil schedule for the motueka and the rest of mosaic.

I made a saison a couple years ago with Motueka and El Dorado that after some aging time I liked a lot. It was also only my second or third saison and only a year into home brewing so I've learned a lot since then that might have made it better.

Here's the post I made for that, https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=459174. I was planning to make it again this year, but getting house ready to sell has left me with little time and no where to ferment since i don't want beer fermenting when people are looking at the house...
If I get a good offer shortly after it's on the market I'm hoping ot knock out a quick Pale Ale or IPA and 1 or 2 Saisons for summer before we move.

 

[tagz]

Man, that's a good beer. I've only had it once when I received two tired hands growlers as gifts. Still have those growlers. I wish I coudl talk with the brewery on their yeast handling



I wasn't aware that saison hands had brett in it. I tried searching around, and it wasnt too clear. Only some reviews mention "brett" character, but you never know what that means or how experienced they are. Either way, it doesnt seem very prominent. Im not sure how they ferment it, but I would guess that any of their wood aged stuff has a bit of brett



Anyway, when Ive done mixed fermentations with brett, I usually dont go as high as a normally do. Usually, I go into the 90s for maximum attenuation, but the brett will really do that either way. I used to just let it free rise, but more recently, I've waited a week then forced it to the low 80s until I needed the space for something else. No way of knowing how much work was done at the higher temperature, but I havent gotten any bad fusel flavors from pushing brett that high yet

Good info. Thanks. I'll probably let it hang in the low 70s for a bit and then ramp up to 80.

Not sure how long ago you had the saison hands, but I've read that it has changed a lot over time as they let the culture evolve naturally. Anyway, I had my first taste a few weeks ago and was blown away. Nice acidity, peppery/fruity funk, good mouthfeel from the oats and wheat - great balance. Its what I imagine a traditional farmhouse ale tasted like 100 years ago.

It was probably cleaner in the past but pretty sure there is a good mix of bugs in there now. Here's my starter!

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1463613550.219992.jpg

 

[Skuee]

I made a saison a couple years ago with Motueka and El Dorado that after some aging time I liked a lot. It was also only my second or third saison and only a year into home brewing so I've learned a lot since then that might have made it better.

Here's the post I made for that, https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=459174. I was planning to make it again this year, but getting house ready to sell has left me with little time and no where to ferment since i don't want beer fermenting when people are looking at the house...
If I get a good offer shortly after it's on the market I'm hoping ot knock out a quick Pale Ale or IPA and 1 or 2 Saisons for summer before we move.

Interesting. Thanks for that bolus. I'm planning on doing a 50/50 mix 1oz mix of motueka and mosaic for bittering, then .25 oz around 10 min, and the last .25 of each at flameout to see what that does. I didn't buy too much in hops cause I'm not a huge fan of bitterness but I'm interested in getting more flavor nearer to flameout from the hops.

 

[Texconsinite]

Love this thread! As a TX brewer without Temp control (yet) WY3711 has been my go-to yeast for some time, with great results. Excited to try blending it, thanks for all the info, gives me a good starting point.

I DO have some experience making fruit Saisons, tho so wanted ot add my 2 cents there

The Kiwi saison sounds interesting. I once made a Lime Rye Saison with Sorachi and a container of Simply Limeaide in the secondary. turned out very interesting. Very Lime-y, but the rye seemed to bring out a little of the Dill in the Sorachi over time which im kinda +/- on

Also did a Nelson saison batch with White Grape juice in secondary. Turned out well, like a white wine flavor, but since i only made two gallons it was gone far too soon.

Hope that helps

 

[Skuee]

Love this thread! As a TX brewer without Temp control (yet) WY3711 has been my go-to yeast for some time, with great results. Excited to try blending it, thanks for all the info, gives me a good starting point.

I DO have some experience making fruit Saisons, tho so wanted ot add my 2 cents there

The Kiwi saison sounds interesting. I once made a Lime Rye Saison with Sorachi and a container of Simply Limeaide in the secondary. turned out very interesting. Very Lime-y, but the rye seemed to bring out a little of the Dill in the Sorachi over time which im kinda +/- on

Also did a Nelson saison batch with White Grape juice in secondary. Turned out well, like a white wine flavor, but since i only made two gallons it was gone far too soon.

Hope that helps

Good info Texcon! I think this summer I'll dabble with adding some kind of grape/fruit juice into secondary for a saison. Did fermentation kick off again after adding the juice?

 

[m00ps]

Good info. Thanks. I'll probably let it hang in the low 70s for a bit and then ramp up to 80.

Not sure how long ago you had the saison hands, but I've read that it has changed a lot over time as they let the culture evolve naturally. Anyway, I had my first taste a few weeks ago and was blown away. Nice acidity, peppery/fruity funk, good mouthfeel from the oats and wheat - great balance. Its what I imagine a traditional farmhouse ale tasted like 100 years ago.

It was probably cleaner in the past but pretty sure there is a good mix of bugs in there now. Here's my starter!

View attachment 354989

Mmm... ramen noodles

Ive had really good results using Motueka in saisons FWIW. I would lean more towards that than mosaic if you are doing both

 

[m00ps]

Updates:

WY3711 & INISBC-291
This one is in my top 3 so far of combos I need to investigate further. This one was wheat/flaked wheat based and used idaho 7 hops which seems good for a saison given their description. Fruity, little tart, a bit of bready malt in the middle, but the finish is spot on where i'd want it. WY3711 is definitely one of the best strains to blend with

YB Wallonian Farmhouse & WLP585
This was the pink peppercorn experiment. I figured the tartness of WLP585 would go well with the fruity berry & spice of the pink peppercorns. Wallonia Farmhouse also brings very high attenuation and some rustic spiciness. Im bottling this tomorrow. Samples tasted great, nice balance of fruit and pepper. You can treally tell peppercorns were added unless you are familiar with pink peppercorns. I ended up adding a total of 2oz. 1 at flameout, 1 to the fermentor (they are much less dense than normal peppercorns. Pink ones are actually a type of berry)

WLP565 & INISBC-291
Bottled this a week ago. It used EXP527 hops, which ive used in 2 saisons before. Its a great hop for traditional saisons where you want a bit more than something like saaz or ekg. Its definitely spicy, with some stone fruit flavors, at least IME, and its got a high alpha%. But its not overwhleming. I used rye in this, coupled with the WLP565, the finish is a bit spicy and malty. Not entirely my goal that Im shooting for, but SWMBO loved it. I'll report back with the fully conditioned review

WY3711 & Omega Hothead
So this is the Kiwi farmhouse IPA experiment. I tasted it before transferring onto the kiwis, and it tasted great. More fruity than most saisons (definitely from the hothead). Out of everything ive tried, hothead, wy3711, and WLP585 are my 3 most successful strains to blend with.
I couldnt find packaged frozen kiwis so I bought 4lbs of them (turned out to be 26 fruits), froze them, peeled the skin off, dipped in starsan, diced them, and tossed them into the carboy. I didnt use a bag for the seeds since I have a fine mash bag I put over my siphon for dry hopped beers. Here's a pic, really gooey right now

 

[m00ps]

Good info Texcon! I think this summer I'll dabble with adding some kind of grape/fruit juice into secondary for a saison. Did fermentation kick off again after adding the juice?

Every time Ive added fruit or juice to a beer, the fermentation has kicked off a bit. It will depend on the sugar content and amount you add. Its a good thing if you are transferring to a secondary since itll clear the headspace of O2

 

[hopbrad]

Moops - whats your favorite saison strain overall?

I head to the US this week and am looking to bring down a liquid saison strain to add to my bank. I've used Belle up until now for the ease of bringing down dry yeast, its decent. I also used the 568 blend a few years ago and that was nice, a bit more on the spice side from what i remember, but i didnt harvest it. The OYL500 blend sounds really nice. Otherwise was thinking 3711. or possibly wlp566. Thoughts?

 

[m00ps]

Moops - whats your favorite saison strain overall?

I head to the US this week and am looking to bring down a liquid saison strain to add to my bank. I've used Belle up until now for the ease of bringing down dry yeast, its decent. I also used the 568 blend a few years ago and that was nice, a bit more on the spice side from what i remember, but i didnt harvest it. The OYL500 blend sounds really nice. Otherwise was thinking 3711. or possibly wlp566. Thoughts?

So far, here are my favorite yeasts:

WY3711 French Saison - super attenuation levels, leaves a very soft full body despite the low FG, crisp tart lemony finish. A bit monotonous on its own but great for blending with other yeasts to round out the finish

WLP585 Belgian Saison III - this is a seasonal offering from White Labs so its a bit harder to find. Its the most tart clean saccharomyces strain I've come across. Flavor is mostly raspberry / blueberry to me. Nice, biting crisp finish.

Omega Hothead - I wasn't expecting to like this one so much. It is VERY fruity, which makes it really interesting to mix with. It's been awhile since I tasted the starter wort by itself, but I guess I would describe it as a fruit cup kinda thing. Peach, cherry, apple, its all over the place. Its also extremely flocculant, especially compared to most farmhouse style yeasts.

INISBC-291 Farmhouse Ale - this is a very small yeast company in Colorado, so its not widely available. I definitely get the strawberry and rustic hay character that the manufacturer describes

 

[hopsandhops]

So far, here are my favorite yeasts:

WY3711 French Saison - super attenuation levels, leaves a very soft full body despite the low FG, crisp tart lemony finish. A bit monotonous on its own but great for blending with other yeasts to round out the finish

WLP585 Belgian Saison III - this is a seasonal offering from White Labs so its a bit harder to find. Its the most tart clean saccharomyces strain I've come across. Flavor is mostly raspberry / blueberry to me. Nice, biting crisp finish.

Omega Hothead - I wasn't expecting to like this one so much. It is VERY fruity, which makes it really interesting to mix with. It's been awhile since I tasted the starter wort by itself, but I guess I would describe it as a fruit cup kinda thing. Peach, cherry, apple, its all over the place. Its also extremely flocculant, especially compared to most farmhouse style yeasts.

INISBC-291 Farmhouse Ale - this is a very small yeast company in Colorado, so its not widely available. I definitely get the strawberry and rustic hay character that the manufacturer describes

As someone relatively new to brewing and enjoying saisons, this is awesome info. Thanks m00ps!

 

[tgmartin000]

I gotta put in a plug for WY3726 - the Farmhouse ale strain. It's from the private collection and only available a few months a year, but I think it's my favorite saison strain.

I believe it's also available year-round from Imperial Organic Yeast as their rustic strain, but I haven't tried that variety.

 

[m00ps]

I gotta put in a plug for WY3726 - the Farmhouse ale strain. It's from the private collection and only available a few months a year, but I think it's my favorite saison strain.

I believe it's also available year-round from Imperial Organic Yeast as their rustic strain, but I haven't tried that variety.

Im still kicking myself for irreversibly blending it in my first saison yeast trial. I remember making one beer with it before, but didnt take great notes. Any comments on its character? I thought I remembered it being more peppery than most saison yeasts

 

[tgmartin000]

Im still kicking myself for irreversibly blending it in my first saison yeast trial. I remember making one beer with it before, but didnt take great notes. Any comments on its character? I thought I remembered it being more peppery than most saison yeasts

Preach, brother! I am moving on Friday, and decided to toss my 9 month old strain of it, rather than trying to harvest and store it.

I'm currently drinking a rye saison that used it, and it's definitely heavy on the pepper compared to some other strains, and it also has a really great phenol balance to it. It attenuates well too, I just kegged a basic saison that went from 1050ish down to 1.0025.

It's got more character than 3711, and is easier to use than the dupont strain. Highly recommended!

 

[EPbrew]

I gotta put in a plug for WY3726 - the Farmhouse ale strain. It's from the private collection and only available a few months a year, but I think it's my favorite saison strain.

I believe it's also available year-round from Imperial Organic Yeast as their rustic strain, but I haven't tried that variety.

I used it in one of my favorite beers last year then built it back up from the dregs in my last bottle this winter. Turned out awesome again. Definitely going to buy more of it this summer.

 

[FatDragon]

Omega Hothead - I wasn't expecting to like this one so much. It is VERY fruity, which makes it really interesting to mix with. It's been awhile since I tasted the starter wort by itself, but I guess I would describe it as a fruit cup kinda thing. Peach, cherry, apple, its all over the place. Its also extremely flocculant, especially compared to most farmhouse style yeasts.

If all goes well, @GQT will be sending me a sample of this one in a week or two. I'm pretty excited. Brewing in a hot environment with weak fermentation control, I could definitely use another yeast (after Belle Saison) that can handle warm temps, and the flavor profile of Omega Hothead sounds pretty appealing to me for a fairly wide variety of styles.

How saison-like is it on its own? I'm thinking roughly 50/50 pils/rye mashed low, bittered in the mid-twenties and given a couple ounces of late hops - maybe Lemon Drop or Hüll Melon for something a bit fruity? Having no experience with the yeast and little experience with saisons/farmhouse ales, I'm kind've shooting in the dark here so I could use some advice.