Experiences with different saison yeast blends
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m00ps
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yeah I agree. Before I started brewing, I thought commercial saisons were all so flavorful in terms of yeast character. Now after becoming a huge saison nerd, its hard to find ones that dont seem "generic" to me. I would be disappointed in one of my saisons if they tasted like most commercial examples.
speaking of which, I made a thread on hunting down great commercial saisons
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=541926
Once I get past this random health bump I want to dedicate next summer to just making different Saisons. Some floral/hoppier, a table/low ABV, and re-pitching onto cakes to make another winter-version/biere de garde, and a Imperial version. Buying the farmhouse ales book by Phil Markowski furthered this. Might have to do some split batches to get the variety I want for the time/money.
Problem is they tend to be delicious, and they go faaaaaaaaaaast.
Problem is they tend to be delicious, and they go faaaaaaaaaaast.
ArkotRamathorn
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If you happen to have an opaque (stainless steel) fermenter, a lamp placed very close/touching the skin of the fermenter and leave it on, itll very easily hit higher 80s. Just finished a sort of Frankenstein Belgian Dark Strong ale recipe but used a blend of Belle Saison and 3068 hefeweizen yeast in a 50/50 blend to ferment. Left a lamp on the fermenter for the first 7-9 days and I kept it above 85F the whole time. (m00ps idea works perfect too, I am only presenting another path to success, also I'm super cheap/lazy and saw a lamp that a friend was getting rid of and thought instantly of using it to heat a fermenter for a saison or Belgian beer)
And to continue m00ps if you want something freaky. Belle Saison and WY3068 hefeweizen yeast in a 50/50 blend, fermented hot, makes for a pretty interesting result. Took the 1.090 wort down to 1.004 (I left it another week and a half after it hit 1.004 with the occaisional bubble so it was still going). You get all the spicy peppery phenols with some lemony citrus, then the hefeweizen balances it with a hint of clove and banana. Depending on how this conditions I was going to enter it twice, once as a BDSA and once as an imperial dark saison in the specialty category.
Edit: The 3068 I have is something like 7th or 8th generation that I harvested from a dark weizenbock I fermented fairly warm in the mid 70s. It seems like its mutated to enjoy the warmer temperatures and it definitely acts more like a Belgian strain than a German wheat strain. It doesn't like to give me the bananas a lot, but I do get all kinds of pear/peach/stone fruit character from it when I ferment with only 3068 at warm temps now.
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m00ps
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Hmm...I could see a hefe yeast in a saison as long as its not the only yeast. Theres a few saison yeasts (WLP566 WY3726 RVA-263) that I seem to get some clove/banana/bubblegum from at high temps like you would a hefe. How hot did you ferment it? I figured a hefe strain shouldnt be taken too warm...
How do you think these blends hold up for a second (or more) generation? Will one of the strains start to dominate or can I expect similar results when pitching from a slurry?
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m00ps
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Aside from the first blend I made, I keep all my yeasts separate and have been doing a 50/50 blend each time. I would think that if you kept them together and repitched, one strain might start to edge out the other. But I still think youd retain characteristics from both strains
ArkotRamathorn
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First 3 days was in the 85-88F range. I pitched around 68F I believe, threw my lamp on and pitched. It rocketed to 87F and kept it there for 7-9 days(at around day 5 fermentation started to tail off so it had a hard time staying above 85F). I took the light off, and left it for another 3 weeks at ambient and dropped from 72F to 59F during that time. I figured the Belle Saison would give me all the big spicy brightness and dry the beer out, and the hefe yeast would give me the fruity mouthfeel. It reminds me of the weirdness of big Belgians that are dry and boozey but still have a chewy mouthfeel which seems completely contridictory.
Though my current strain I have in the fridge I harvested from a dark weizenbock I fermented very warm in the mid 70s. So the 3068 I have in my fridge right now is already slightly acclimated to higher temperature fermentations. That may be why I don't have major issues with it at such high temperatures, if I took a fresh 1st generation smack pack and did the same thing I imagine it would not be a very happy yeast indeed.
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m00ps
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Im doing a fruity hefe next weekend. My yeast is a blend I combined a while ago of 3068 and 3638. How warm do you think I could take this to acclimate it? I harvest from the starter so I guess id try to get that a bit warm and see how the starter wort tastes
ArkotRamathorn
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The weizenbock I did I pitched from a warm starter 72F-ish, into warm wort of 75F-ish. It took off like a rocket and sat at around 77F for the first 5 days then dropped to ambient around 70F. I took a big spoonful of the cake and washed the yeast (I use the term "washed" loosely as I only did a single step to try and separate some of the trub from the yeast). For the sake of having all my notes, I pitched at approximately 10-12% underpitch than what BF yeast pitch calculator said (1.065 wort I think it was).
I tried another batch and wanted to push the limits on the 3068. Kept it at 85F by itself and it didn't produce yeast off-flavors. It does create a very bright crisp beer. Both the weizenbock and the second batch (almost all pilsner and sugar) did not have any of the banana character, though both expressed the clove fairly well. On the other hand there was a definite increase in stone fruit and citrus character expression. 3068 must have some sort of shared genetics with Belgian yeasts and the high temps must help naturally select the 'mutants' that like those temps.
secondbase
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This is exactly what I use. I can't handle not having one ready to drink in my house so I brew saisons year round.
ArkotRamathorn
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That definitely seems to be the case. Same yeast I have stored in the fridge I took it and built it up for a blueberry orange hefeweizen, and a roggenbier. Both I kept to 66-69F and it gave the expect blend of banana and clove character. Its definitely a surprisingly flexible yeast (though I think it may just be yeast are far more flexible in general). I'm pretty sure the extended high temperature fermentations cause the 3068 to clean up the banana esters and clove phenols much quicker.
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m00ps
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Those strains seem pretty similar in terms of performance and ester profile. im wondering, did the final product have a bit more spice like belle saison or more lemon like 3711? Also how low did this get on FG? IME, Im guessing it had to be close to 1.000 if you mashed low and didnt use too much specialty malts...
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m00ps
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Update on both of these
RVA-263 (Ghost Ale) & WLP585:
Tried one of these yesterday and something hit me. I could distinctly taste fantome on the finish. I was certain. Its the exact flavor that lingers on your palate after taking a sip of any of their beers. The yeast doesnt carry their funky nose or taste, but the baseline is there. Kinda neat. The WLP585 is very tart but clean so it doesnt have a lingering finish. Im sure the taste came from the RVA
WLP585+WY3711:
Rebrewed this because I was so sad I had to dump it. Bottled it 3 days ago, at 1.000. It was very bright and a bit tart. I can't wait till its carbed. I think this may be my best one yet...
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m00ps
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I also just picked up YB Belgian Dry Ale. Supposedly this thing is capable of even higher attenuation than 3711. I cant wait to try it out in my super dry saison I made a few batches ago. Gonna shoot for below 1.000 this time
Has anyone used this? Im worried about taking it into the 90s....
Has anyone used this? Im worried about taking it into the 90s....
100amps
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I used both of these because I had conflicting recommendations from pro brewing friends to use one or the other. So I used both hoping for some added complexity. My recipe also uses orange blossom honey and malted rye, so I can't really nail down for you which subtlties each yeast contributed. All I know for sure is that there's lots going on and it's all good. I don't plan to change the recipe much, I'm happy with the yeast. (The hops still need a bit of tweaking.)
In retrospect, it wasn't 50/50 because I did not make a starter for the 3711. That means the Belle Saison likely had a significantly higher cell count.
I'm no seasoned saison expert, so I don't have much in the way of helpful details to contribute. I'm getting cravings for some of that saison though, so i might brew some more soon.
It finishes at 1.004 -ish.
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m00ps
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Thats cool. Was the finished beer very tart and lemony? or a bit more spicy? From what I remember, Belle saison was more balanced and had some spice in it whereas 3711 was just pure bright lemon character. I would guess you got more spice from using a greater %age of Belle Saison.
Good question, I just found a few mentions of it online and thought that it had been determined. Could be Allagash though. Guess I'm going to have to buy some beers from Allagash and Ommegang and compare
I have tried building up both, but I think I extremely under pitched both. I used Ommegang's in a Wit and a Belgian Blonde and both had a really, really, funky taste. Only way I could describe it was similar to combining ham/bologna, it mellowed over time but never got "good." I only used the dregs from 3 bottles into a 1L starter and then pitched into a 5 gal batch of about 1.050 wort, I don't have my notes or I could give you the exact OG and ferment time.
I have harvested Allagash from White, which to me is a clove bomb in the bottle but is one of the best from a keg, not sure why I taste such a difference between the two. Regardless, when I harvested and used I did the same as I did with Ommegang, so pitch rate was likely low. This was also a Wit and the finished product had some similarities to White. Very clovey to me, a few friends that tried it didn't think the clove was that bad though.
I don't like clove much at all though and seem to be able to pick it out when others can't so it may just be my palette with Allagash.
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m00ps
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So the rebrew of WLP585 and WY3711 has been in the bottle for 10 days and I can alreayd tell this is the best one so far. At least for my tastes. I hopped it late with a lot of pacific gem for that berry-like tang and it worked well. Its so bright and tart with a surprisingly peppery finish given my yeast choices. The middle is sweet citrus and the bit of blackberry. The finish is the best though. Right from the sweet flavor it goes super dry and hangs around your tongue. This one got to 1.000 from 1.056
tgmartin000
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Although not saison per se, I had a locally produced tripel that used both the westmalle and chimay yeast. It was really a fantastic beer. On my list to brew!
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m00ps
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ive seen people using westmalle for a saison and ferment low for its spiciness. Ive got a WLP530 + WY3724 (or something else spicy) planned.
I would think Chimay is a bit too sweet fruity for my tastes in saisons though
I would think Chimay is a bit too sweet fruity for my tastes in saisons though
brewski09
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I haven't done a side by side, but I've heard the white labs and wyeast French saisons aren't the same and that the wyeast is a better strain. I trust the opinions of the people that told me that so I've never messed with WLP590 (yet). What are the INISBC yeasts?
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m00ps
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Yeah from digging around, it looks like the White Labs "French Saison" WLP590 is very different from Wyeasts 3711. The WLP590 seems almost more like a biere de garde yeast and accentuates malt character. Not really what I look for in designing my saison recipes.
INISBC is a small yeast company called Inland Island. It looks like theyve got some pretty unique stuff. Their "Farmhouse Saison" looks very interesting to me. "Strawberry and notes of hay" sounds awesome
tgmartin000
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Inland Island is a relatively new, local yeast farm here in Denver. It's just a 2 man shop, and after a year or 2 in operation they're already supplying yeast to lots of local breweries, including some really well respected places.
I have an IPA I'm about ready to tap that used their NorCal ale yeast. They also have a conan strain I've used that turned out fantastic. Have a batch of yooper's oatmeal stout that used their english V strain, and I'm buying a 1 BBL pitch of lactobacillus brevis from them on Friday for a batch of sour beer I'm brewing at a local brewery. Their stuff is pretty great, from what I've used so far.
They even sponsored a homebrew tasting/fundraiser I put on, and gave me like 20 vials to hand out to the brewers. Very generous of them!
If anyone is interested, I could set up some trades for their yeast. PM me.
I have an IPA I'm about ready to tap that used their NorCal ale yeast. They also have a conan strain I've used that turned out fantastic. Have a batch of yooper's oatmeal stout that used their english V strain, and I'm buying a 1 BBL pitch of lactobacillus brevis from them on Friday for a batch of sour beer I'm brewing at a local brewery. Their stuff is pretty great, from what I've used so far.
They even sponsored a homebrew tasting/fundraiser I put on, and gave me like 20 vials to hand out to the brewers. Very generous of them!
If anyone is interested, I could set up some trades for their yeast. PM me.
I want to try maybe next summer a barleywine equivalent of a Saison, I know its out of style...but I think it would be neat to see what high alcohol, fruit bomb flavored Saison would be like.
Maybe do the fabled WLP 585/WYS 3711 combo moops talks about. If I get around to it I'll post the results here.
Maybe do the fabled WLP 585/WYS 3711 combo moops talks about. If I get around to it I'll post the results here.
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m00ps
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That sounds pretty interesting. Not sure how high abv 585 can take, but Ive had 3711 do fine in the 9-10% range so I'd say go for it.
Hmm... wyeast lists its tolerance at 12%. you should be fine. I'd take a saison fermented barleywine over any traditional one any day. Its the residual sweetness that turns me off from the style
Moops, I tend to enjoy residual sweetness. However I think because of the esters, and phenolics generated by french/belgian yeasts it adds to the body, and perceived flavors which mask the dryness for me. 3711 created an 8.5% Saison for me this past summer.
I would most likely use a combo of more belgian candi sugar, and maybe add some brown sugar to boost the gravity, and still have it dry out. As well as some DME to go along with the grain bill.
I would most likely use a combo of more belgian candi sugar, and maybe add some brown sugar to boost the gravity, and still have it dry out. As well as some DME to go along with the grain bill.
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m00ps
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update on saison + witbier yeast trial:
Forgot about this one. I did end up doing a saison/wit hybrid. It was basically a witbier grainbill, with sugar added for extra dryness, fermented by WLP585 and WY3463. Forbidden fruit is funkier smelling during fermentation than anything ive ever used (including brett & bugs). It usually cleans up pretty well after finishing though. But the fruity flavors from both yeasts melded very well together. I got a tart raspberry thing going on.
Id note that I did not heat this one up past 90F due to the wit yeast. I insulated the fermentor by making it wear my heaviest winter coat. It got to like 82
Forgot about this one. I did end up doing a saison/wit hybrid. It was basically a witbier grainbill, with sugar added for extra dryness, fermented by WLP585 and WY3463. Forbidden fruit is funkier smelling during fermentation than anything ive ever used (including brett & bugs). It usually cleans up pretty well after finishing though. But the fruity flavors from both yeasts melded very well together. I got a tart raspberry thing going on.
Id note that I did not heat this one up past 90F due to the wit yeast. I insulated the fermentor by making it wear my heaviest winter coat. It got to like 82
Yeah, I would have to just mash at a lower temp then what I'm accustomed to. I generally shoot for 155-159. Would probably need to hit 150-153 degrees for Super Saison.
tgmartin000
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I'm accustomed to mashing low for saisons, and adding sugar. Once we start getting into saison season again, I'm going to try a saison with 3711, and mashing at 156 or so, just to see what happens.
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m00ps
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So I bottled up another blend yesterday:
WY3711 & YB Belgian Dry Ale
This combination had stupidly high attenuation. Its a clean all sacch beer that got below 1.000, ended at 0.997. It was supposed to be about 6.5% and its 8.0%. Tastes great though. The YB Belgian Dry has a lot of citrus/apple flavor to it the worked well with the typical lemony zing of 3711
WY3711 & YB Belgian Dry Ale
This combination had stupidly high attenuation. Its a clean all sacch beer that got below 1.000, ended at 0.997. It was supposed to be about 6.5% and its 8.0%. Tastes great though. The YB Belgian Dry has a lot of citrus/apple flavor to it the worked well with the typical lemony zing of 3711
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