Experiences with different saison yeast blends

[ss4ivan]

I will be using the 3711/585 combo in 10 gallons soon. Im going to split this into 2 fermentors. I was thinking of wrapping one in a coat and letting it free rise from 65. Any recommendation on fermentation temps for the other?

 

[m00ps]

I will be using the 3711/585 combo in 10 gallons soon. Im going to split this into 2 fermentors. I was thinking of wrapping one in a coat and letting it free rise from 65. Any recommendation on fermentation temps for the other?

Cool. I,ve found if I have the fermentor on a rug (instead of my cold hardwood floor) and using the winter jacket, it can usually hit 80F. So I guess your options are to try to keep it below 70F or warmer than 80F.

I didn't get any bad off flavors from doing about 90F two days into fermentation with these strains. But one person I got feedback from said he detected a hint of sulfur in the aroma, but not the taste. Others that have tried it haven't gotten the same thing. But knowing me, I probably just as easily mightve liked the sulfur and chalked it up to bonus barnyard points

 

[ss4ivan]

Cool. I,ve found if I have the fermentor on a rug (instead of my cold hardwood floor) and using the winter jacket, it can usually hit 80F. So I guess your options are to try to keep it below 70F or warmer than 80F.

I didn't get any bad off flavors from doing about 90F two days into fermentation with these strains. But one person I got feedback from said he detected a hint of sulfur in the aroma, but not the taste. Others that have tried it haven't gotten the same thing. But knowing me, I probably just as easily mightve liked the sulfur and chalked it up to bonus barnyard points

Do you find that you get better flavor with a temperature rise (65-80), or when you ferment hot from the start? or maybe ferment low the entire time?

Edit: flavor meaning funky and fruity

 

[m00ps]

In general, i think ive found a few general trends with saison yeasts with fermentation temp
- higher temps tend towards more fruity flavors
- lower temps bring out the spicier side, if the strain has one. Both of these have very little spice IME, at least from tasting their starter worts fermented at 68F
- you can usually grab a bit more gravity points from warming them, either early, or near the end. I like mine super dry so I always try to heat them up at some point
- higher temps on the early side of fermentation seem to make the overall yeast character more aggressive, which I like

 

[ss4ivan]

Thanks for the tips, I may just keep it at 65 for 6 hours then ramp up to 80 fairly quickly after that so I can try for the full range of that flavorful funk. Where did you get your inland island 291 farmhouse yeast? Can't find it anywhere

 

[m00ps]

Thanks for the tips, I may just keep it at 65 for 6 hours then ramp up to 80 fairly quickly after that so I can try for the full range of that flavorful funk. Where did you get your inland island 291 farmhouse yeast? Can't find it anywhere

I got it from a guy who has friends that work at the lab. I got pretty lucky. It really is a cool yeast from the 2 times ive used it so far. Definitely strawberry forward. Looks like barley haven is the only place that carries it online but they are out right now

 

[brewski09]

Any interest in a yeast swap at some point?

 

[m00ps]

Any interest in a yeast swap at some point?

I've done some yeast exchanges before. I could probably be coerced into doing it again. What interesting stuff is around your neck of the woods?

 

[ss4ivan]

I might be interested for a swap as well...local breweries: epic, Wasatch, squatters, uinta. I can also get some ballast point.

 

[m00ps]

I got a second one going with WY3711 and WLP585, but this time in a black saison with sorachi ace. Pretty interested to see how the yeast character comes across in that. Im looking to make a bright and tangy beer that seems to contradict its jet black appearance

 

[brewski09]

Anyone looking for Brett drie? I've got a bottle with only drie in it I'm planning on culturing very soon.

 

[m00ps]

INISBC 291 / Omega Yeast Hot head
This ones only about a week in, but both are very fruit foward strains so I think they should work well together. And not like citrus fruits, but more berryish.

This one is still a bit young, but tasting awesome. Hugely fruit forward and juicy, almost no spice. I hopped it with some pacific gem and belma to help the fruit character. These are the only 2 yeasts ive come across that are actually rated by the yeast manufacturer for temps over 90F. So I pitched this one as normal, but ramped it up as soon as I saw airlock activity starting. Pretty excited to see how it matures

 

[m00ps]

I feel compelled to update this thing every other week or so.

INISBC 291/ Omega Yeast Hot Head
This is good to go now. Super fruity. I remember Hot Head being one of the fruitiest non-brett starter worts Id tasted, so seems to make sense. The strawberry from the INISBC Farmhouse and tropical flavors from the Azzaca hops I used really all combined into something good

WY3711 & WLP585
So far, this has been my favorite combo. I really go for super dry, super fruity, tart saisons. I also like peppery earthy rustic flavors, but havent really found a combo of sacch yeasts that has produced that.
Anyway, I've bottled the 2nd saison I did with this, pretty much the same recipe and hops (Belma) as the first and its very promising so far. I still need to wait another couple days to dry the sorachi black saison I piggybacked off this one

Wild garden harvested yeast & INISBC-291
I'm very curious about this one. I received a wild yeast harvested from a fellow HBTers garden. Its proven to be a very good yeast for primary fermentationa dn definitely has saison-esque characteristics. To my tastes, its got a nice balance of clovey peppery spice and some appley orange flavor, maybe a bit of herbal character but that could be entirely placebo effect given its origins. I decided to split this half by itself and half with the starter of the INISBC ive been using so much of lately. Only used a tiny bit of noble hops to get the full effect of the yeast for these.

Next up is a spiced saison experiment with the wild yeast. Added cardamom, ginger, and caramelized raisins. I also finally managed to get some spelt for the first time, so trying to think what yeast(s) would go well with a ~30% spelt saison. Anyone has any ideas, chime in

 

[badlee]

@m00ps, no bad can ever come of updating at regular intervals.
Thank you very much for sharing

 

[beergolf]

Wild garden harvested yeast & INISBC-291
I'm very curious about this one. I received a wild yeast harvested from a fellow HBTers garden. Its proven to be a very good yeast for primary fermentationa dn definitely has saison-esque characteristics. To my tastes, its got a nice balance of clovey peppery spice and some appley orange flavor, maybe a bit of herbal character but that could be entirely placebo effect given its origins. I decided to split this half by itself and half with the starter of the INISBC ive been using so much of lately. Only used a tiny bit of noble hops to get the full effect of the yeast for these.

Glad you are liking the wild yeast. It is a good one. I have combined it with brett several times with great results.

I am interested in hearing more about how this combo comes out. Your posts got me thinking more about blending saison yeasts.

I also finally managed to get some spelt for the first time, so trying to think what yeast(s) would go well with a ~30% spelt saison. Anyone has any ideas, chime in

I do a spelt saison with strisselspalt hops that is very nice.

 

[tgmartin000]

I made a spelt saison with the wyeast farmhouse ale, 3726. It turned out fantastic! I followed that batch up with a rye saison that's in the keg, and just friday brewed up a pretty standard saison with the same yeast. Since it's only available a few months a year, I'm trying to keep the strain going. Great yeast.

 

[m00ps]

I made a spelt saison with the wyeast farmhouse ale, 3726. It turned out fantastic! I followed that batch up with a rye saison that's in the keg, and just friday brewed up a pretty standard saison with the same yeast. Since it's only available a few months a year, I'm trying to keep the strain going. Great yeast.

I need to grab this next time its out. Like an idiot, I tossed mine into a big starter with some other yeasts. Didn't think about how I would be unable to separate it afterwards.

 

[0080]

How long are you leaving the batches to ferment? Are you transferring any to secondaries? How long are the beers conditioning in the bottles?

Wondering all this because I see that some of these saison yeasts stall then pick back up after a bit.

 

[m00ps]

How long are you leaving the batches to ferment? Are you transferring any to secondaries? How long are the beers conditioning in the bottles?

Wondering all this because I see that some of these saison yeasts stall then pick back up after a bit.

There's really only one saison yeast that does this. The issue is, its easily the most widely used strain so the entire farm gets a bad rep. This is WY3724 / WLP 565 / Saison Dupont yeast. Usually, warming it up to 80F or more will help it finish.

Although, culturing up the bottle dregs doesnt tend to do this. This is reportedly because the real deal has more than a single isolate in its culture. WLP566, for instance is supposed to be from Dupont too and displays veyr different characteristics from WLP565

This is one of the reasons I like using blends of yeast. I never get any sort of stalling.

My usual process is to let it ferment without temperature control (or actually warming it) for about 3 weeks. All primary. I only use a secondary for doing sours where i will transfer to a smaller vessel to minimize headspace since itll be sitting for months. Bottle with enough carb sugar for 2.8-3.0 vol CO2. They are pretty much good to go after 2 weeks in the bottle once they are fully carbed. There are definitely some "green" flavors at this point, but they arent bad off-flavors like I'd get with other styles. I just like to see the shift in the flavor profile where a lot of them tend to display more hefe-like banana and bubblegum when they are very young and get nice and tangy and/or peppery when it matures. I do read others posting that saisons take months to ferment and more months to mature, but I've never found that top be the case. Not sure if they are actually talking about wild farmhouse ales or not.

 

[tagz]

According to Farmhouse Ales, Dupont uses a centrifuge to pull their primary blend before packaging. They then bottle with a separate strain. This may be why the bottle culture has no problem finishing.

 

[m00ps]

According to Farmhouse Ales, Dupont uses a centrifuge to pull their primary blend before packaging. They then bottle with a separate strain. This may be why the bottle culture has no problem finishing.

Thats interesting, it sounds like it still has to be a saison yeast though, right? Otherwise, building it up to use in a saison wouldnt turn out too well.

Gotta admit, that ruins Dupont a bit for me. Centrifuges for filtering are not my idea of the spirit of the style

 

[tagz]

Yeah, I assume it must be a saison yeast as I've read several threads about people culturing it and most seem happy with the result. It also makes me wonder how the labs were able to get the character strain of not by culturing from the bottle. Does any yeast make it through the centrifuge process?

 

[burninator]

According to Farmhouse Ales, Dupont uses a centrifuge to pull their primary blend before packaging. They then bottle with a separate strain. This may be why the bottle culture has no problem finishing.

I've read that they filter out the primary yeast, but not necessarily that they pitch something different for conditioning. They're pretty tight-lipped about it, but I suspect they see some quality aspect to getting rid of any tired yeast and bottling with a fresh pitch of the house culture.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

@m00ps

Have you done any blends with a touch of 1214 in the mix? I'm working on an imperial red saison and planned combining Belle Saison and about 40% of the pitch as 1214.

 

[tagz]

1214 throws a bunch of banana IME. If that's what you're going for I say give it a try. Just watch temps. The Trappist yeast are more sensitive than saison.

 

[m00ps]

@m00ps

Have you done any blends with a touch of 1214 in the mix? I'm working on an imperial red saison and planned combining Belle Saison and about 40% of the pitch as 1214.

I haven't. Mostly stick to saison yeast blends, at least for this thread. I do use other Belgians in a lot of stuff to spike other beers I want dry like ipas. I've got one going with YB Belgian dry and a saison yeast though I'm excited about.

I think its be great for a combo. Chimay has always been a bit too sweet for me especially in a strong Belgian but I like the dark fruit flavors. A saison yeast may be perfect to balance it. My first competition I won best in show with a beer using a trappist-ish yeast and a saison one to get a +10% beer that's super dry and drinkable

 

[reddskinnfan]

Presonally, I like Forbidden Fruit for Saison.

 

[brewski09]

I just got some Sigmund's Voss Kviek from The Yeast Bay. Basic rundown, sounds similar to 3711 but with orange instead of lemon notes. Little to no variation in character and performance between temps of 70-100F. Gonna make a starter this week and then some low temp beers cause that's what I've got to work with. Then let it run wild this summer with the hot temps.

 

[m00ps]

I just got some Sigmund's Voss Kviek from The Yeast Bay. Basic rundown, sounds similar to 3711 but with orange instead of lemon notes. Little to no variation in character and performance between temps of 70-100F. Gonna make a starter this week and then some low temp beers cause that's what I've got to work with. Then let it run wild this summer with the hot temps.

Curious to see how this compared to my hothead from omega. Sounds like very similar origins if not the same strain. Huge temp range. Fruity and from Norwegian farmhouse roots

 

[brewski09]

Maybe this summer we should send a couple bottles to each other this summer when fermenting temps are better.

 

[DemonsRun]

Curious to see how this compared to my hothead from omega. Sounds like very similar origins if not the same strain. Huge temp range. Fruity and from Norwegian farmhouse roots

Nice breakdown of the Kveik strains
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Kveik

Omega offers the Voss strain to pro brewers and say it is similar to Hothead
http://www.omegayeast.com/portfolio/voss-kveik/

 

[m00ps]

Nice breakdown of the Kveik strains
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Kveik

Omega offers the Voss strain to pro brewers and say it is similar to Hothead
http://www.omegayeast.com/portfolio/voss-kveik/

Thanks! Looks like I found another yeast I need to play with

 

[m00ps]

Maybe this summer we should send a couple bottles to each other this summer when fermenting temps are better.

I use a cheap aquarium heater setup to just make them whenever im in the mood. Ive got 8 or 9 that are good to go now, may help you decide on strains for yours when summer comes. PM me if you want.

 

[m00ps]

long winded Updates:

2nd WY3711 & WLP585:
This turned out very well like the first. Kept the same recipe with a slightly altered hop profile. Tastes very similar to the first one at this stage. Tiny bit of hefe-like clove and banana going on that eventualyl changed to tart crisp fruit last time

black WY3711 & WLP585
Much better than I hoped for. Used a full lb of midnight wheat, along with some cane sugar to make sure it got dry enough to feel like a saison. Gravity got to 1.002, which Im happy with for something like this. Sorachi Ace with a bit of cascade went great with the citrus from 3711 and WLP585 helped round out the finish with mroe tart fruit stuff

beergolf's wild rosemary yeast & INISBC-291
Like I mentioned before, The rosemary yeast by itself is very balanced to me. Has some clove, and spice, but not aggressively peppery. Some fruit flavors I cant quite make out, but not full on citrus. Blending it with the berry/hay I get from 291 worked unexpectedly well. The result isnt my favorite yeast profile out of what I have ready to drink right now, but more than one friend seemed to really prefer it. Im beginning to think im a bit of a weirdo for my aggressive yeast profile preferences.

side note: beefgolf inspired me to try harvesting from my plants. Pepper plant got weird. Tomato plant worked, but the initial smell had me worried. It could definitely ferment beer, but smelled like nail polish remover a bit. Well after patiently stepping it up and letting whatever was in there to "selectively breed" based on ability to eat beer sugars, its a very nice sour yeast/bug blend (guessing here, no idea whats in it, but its not a clean sacch). Thanks @beergolf

WLP585 & Lactic Acid
So this was an experiment that exceeded what I though the results were going to be. I wanted to make a gose with a quick turnaround, without kettle/mash souring. Wouldnt work too well with my setup and im just lazy. So I decided on using 88% lactic acid (ended up using 3oz), acid malt (25% of grain bill), salt (.75 oz), orange peel and coriander. I figured WLP585, being the most tart thing I had on hand, could be up to the task. Its still a bit young, but unless something goes terribly wrong during bottle conditioning, id say itll be a really nice refreshing change of pace

next up: WLP585 / INISBC 291
The fruit flavors of these 2 are my favorites so I was surprised to look at my records and see I never combined them before

next next up: YB Belgian Dry & YB Wallonian Farmhouse
this should be a monster attenuator given my experience with both of these yeasts. well see how the yeast profile plays out. Im thinking about turning this into my second cucumber mint saison. That or hop it out the ass and call it a farmhouse ipa

 

[Gus_13]

I do a great deal of yeast blending. My current favorites are:

Wyeast 3726 and WLP585: Great for slightly tart beers and great with citrus fruits.

Wyeast 3726 and ECY08: Just monster attenuator. Not sure of the blend any more as I just harvest and repitch or feed my starter.

Wyeast 3726 and WLP565: Classic Saison character with a hint of tartness. Great fruit notes and spice character.

Those are the only clean blends I keep around. Everything else is a mix of sacc, brett, and/or LAB.

 

[ss4ivan]

I have a batch of 585/3711 and a 585/291 going on one week in the fermentor. Im pretty excited about these. Ill take a gravity reading next weekend and taste.

 

[Jonkl]

I'll jump in here. I've been keeping up with this thread for a while, and really appreciate the work you've done. A while back, I did an amber saison for fall, with a 3711/566 blend. I fermented it at a fairly cool ambient temp (mid to high 60s), and it turned out incredible. It got the attenuation and slight tartness from the 3711, and the 566 at that temp created a huge clove/cinnamon/allspice profile. No one who tasted it could believe I didn't use any spices in it.

Over a few generations, I think the 3711 out-grew the 566 and tended to dominate, so that's definitely a blend I've decided needs to be mantained separately.

I'll probably start playing with some Yeast Bay stuff and making blends out of that this summer.

 

[m00ps]

I'll jump in here. I've been keeping up with this thread for a while, and really appreciate the work you've done. A while back, I did an amber saison for fall, with a 3711/566 blend. I fermented it at a fairly cool ambient temp (mid to high 60s), and it turned out incredible. It got the attenuation and slight tartness from the 3711, and the 566 at that temp created a huge clove/cinnamon/allspice profile. No one who tasted it could believe I didn't use any spices in it.

Over a few generations, I think the 3711 out-grew the 566 and tended to dominate, so that's definitely a blend I've decided needs to be mantained separately.

I'll probably start playing with some Yeast Bay stuff and making blends out of that this summer.

Good stuff. I did that combo once and had nice results. I always get some amount of clove from 566, even when I ferment hot. Keeping them separate is something I definitely learned the hard way too

 

[tagz]

Anyone else find that they get banana esters early on, and more spice and unique esters later? I've noticed this in the last two strains I've been using lately (3726, 3724).

 

[Gus_13]

Anyone else find that they get banana esters early on, and more spice and unique esters later? I've noticed this in the last two strains I've been using lately (3726, 3724).

I have seen this. It may be more of a yeasty smell but then it drops out. I don't get it as much now with my strains in the later generations but I've gotten it before.