Experiences with different saison yeast blends

[m00ps]

Update on YB Wallonian Farmhouse + WY3711:
This ones matured in the bottles nicely and now has a much more crisp edge to it. Dry as champagne and im loving it. Lemon is the most prominent flavor I can pick out and it finishes with a bit of a spicy edge. The body is great for how dry it finishes. Definitely a good combo

edit: got down to 1.000 exactly. Dryest non wild beer to date. Mission accomplished!

 

[m00ps]

RVA-263 (Ghost Ale) & WLP585:
Admittedly, this ones on the docket but Im excited and want to talk about it. I made a saison with the supposed fantome strain a while back and it turned out well, but didnt taste at all like fantome. To my tastes, it was one of the spiciest saison yeasts Ive tried. I thought this may have been due to my constant use of rye in my saisons, but from my recipe notes this was only pils/flaked wheat/honey malt so it had to have come from the yeast. Given its spicy flavors, I liked the idea of pairing with the bright, slightly funky, tartness of 585. Hopefully, this will get a bit closer to the actual blend that they use (without bugs obviously)

Not sure what to make of this one. Its in the keg, but only 16 days old from brew day so I'll give it more time to condition. At its final FG reading, I couldnt taste any of the bright tartness I get from WLP585 and there was definitely an almost hefe-like sweet clove thign going on. I'll see how it does after it conditions

side note: WLP585 is truly an interesting yeast. It leaves specks all over the flask every time and when I swish it up, it looks like a snowglobe. The yeast stays in big chunks that you can see and when you move the flask it looks like fresh powder snow being blown around on an early winter morning. Its done this every time ive used it. Never seen a yeast like it

 

[m00ps]

Update2 on RVA-263 (Ghost Ale) & WLP585:
I think this was just green when I tried it last. It almost tasted hefe-like in its flavors which put me off since it was not at all what I was going for. Now it is nice and balanced between spice and fruit flavors. I cant really pick out the tart character from WLP585 that I love, or the Ghost Ale characteristics either. It is very good, but not something I'd try again.

What I am excited for is my WLP585+WY3711 coming up. Im hoping this will be extremely bright, tart, and have a really nice yeasty zing on the finish. The first time I tried to make it I had to dump the batch before it was a week old. I got a hop bag stuck under my heating element and it got scorched. Though ti might ferment out but at sampling it tasted like straight up rubbery burnt tar. So sad...

 

[m00ps]

oh and this weekend I am going to use this new norwegian farmhouse yeast from Omega Yeast.

OYL-057: HotHead Ale -- An ale strain of Norwegian origin that has an astoundingly wide temperature range (62F-98F) with little difference in flavor profile across the whole range. It has a unique fruitiness that makes it complementary to modern hop varieties. Attenuation: 75-85%; Flocculation: medium-high; Temperature: 62F-98F.

Its got a higher temp range than anythign ive ever seen listed. I mean we all now saison yeasts can be pushed higher than given by the yeast manufacturer, but this thing looks very interesting. Still deciding what to pair it with...

Suggestions?

 

[Skuee]

Wow, that sounds interesting. So many yeast manufacturers now, I like it's temp range..makes me want to try it. Guess it just depends on what fruit esters you'd want from a pairing strain to help complement it.

My feelings are since you haven't used it before to do a SMASH with just that yeast, that might spark better combos as you drink it.

 

[m00ps]

yeah I might do something very simple with just the hothead alone in the future. I like to try the starter wort from each saison batch I do in order to get a better idea of the yeast's most basic character. But my first saison blend is getting old and needs reviving anyway so thats what I decided to pair it with

 

[m00ps]

OK so the Omega Yeast hothead strain is very intriguing. It is just as fruity as the Brett Blend I use. Easily the fruitiest sacch strain ive ever tried. Now to see what it does at 95F...

 

[m00ps]

WY3711 & WLP585:
I took a taste of this after it hit FG. Im letting it condition a few more days before bottling but this is easily the best tasting saison sample ive tried from my fermentor. So vibrant, tart, and the slightest hint of funk. I hope it only gets better in the bottle. 2nd one ive got down to 1.000 without brett or bugs

Next one is going to be using the Hothead Norwegian strain along with my current favorite saison yeast (WLP585). If all goes right this should be intensely fruity without any sweetness

 

[Skuee]

WLB585 sounds intriguing. I'll have to see if my LHBS stocks it next summer. I'd love to blend it with the 3711 like you did for some extra fruit kick. *Dreaming of summer saisons now*

 

[m00ps]

WLB585 sounds intriguing. I'll have to see if my LHBS stocks it next summer. I'd love to blend it with the 3711 like you did for some extra fruit kick. *Dreaming of summer saisons now*

Definitely get it! As you may be able to tell, I'm pretty obsessed with these yeasts and it is the most interesting, if not my favorite, of all of them.

It clumps up and really looks like a snow globe. Never seen anything like it. But it's taste is so tart it's amazing

 

[Skuee]

I just like the idea of creating esters within home brews, its something that is lacking in most commercial examples.

 

[m00ps]

I just like the idea of creating esters within home brews, its something that is lacking in most commercial examples.

yeah I agree. Before I started brewing, I thought commercial saisons were all so flavorful in terms of yeast character. Now after becoming a huge saison nerd, its hard to find ones that dont seem "generic" to me. I would be disappointed in one of my saisons if they tasted like most commercial examples.

speaking of which, I made a thread on hunting down great commercial saisons
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=541926

 

[Skuee]

Once I get past this random health bump I want to dedicate next summer to just making different Saisons. Some floral/hoppier, a table/low ABV, and re-pitching onto cakes to make another winter-version/biere de garde, and a Imperial version. Buying the farmhouse ales book by Phil Markowski furthered this. Might have to do some split batches to get the variety I want for the time/money.

Problem is they tend to be delicious, and they go faaaaaaaaaaast.

 

[m00ps]

I use a $20 rope tub + aquarium heater setup and just make saisons year round. Goes against the traditional roots of the style but I cant allow myself ot run out of them

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Once I get past this random health bump I want to dedicate next summer to just making different Saisons. Some floral/hoppier, a table/low ABV, and re-pitching onto cakes to make another winter-version/biere de garde, and a Imperial version. Buying the farmhouse ales book by Phil Markowski furthered this. Might have to do some split batches to get the variety I want for the time/money.

Problem is they tend to be delicious, and they go faaaaaaaaaaast.

If you happen to have an opaque (stainless steel) fermenter, a lamp placed very close/touching the skin of the fermenter and leave it on, itll very easily hit higher 80s. Just finished a sort of Frankenstein Belgian Dark Strong ale recipe but used a blend of Belle Saison and 3068 hefeweizen yeast in a 50/50 blend to ferment. Left a lamp on the fermenter for the first 7-9 days and I kept it above 85F the whole time. (m00ps idea works perfect too, I am only presenting another path to success, also I'm super cheap/lazy and saw a lamp that a friend was getting rid of and thought instantly of using it to heat a fermenter for a saison or Belgian beer)

And to continue m00ps if you want something freaky. Belle Saison and WY3068 hefeweizen yeast in a 50/50 blend, fermented hot, makes for a pretty interesting result. Took the 1.090 wort down to 1.004 (I left it another week and a half after it hit 1.004 with the occaisional bubble so it was still going). You get all the spicy peppery phenols with some lemony citrus, then the hefeweizen balances it with a hint of clove and banana. Depending on how this conditions I was going to enter it twice, once as a BDSA and once as an imperial dark saison in the specialty category.

Edit: The 3068 I have is something like 7th or 8th generation that I harvested from a dark weizenbock I fermented fairly warm in the mid 70s. It seems like its mutated to enjoy the warmer temperatures and it definitely acts more like a Belgian strain than a German wheat strain. It doesn't like to give me the bananas a lot, but I do get all kinds of pear/peach/stone fruit character from it when I ferment with only 3068 at warm temps now.

 

[m00ps]

Hmm...I could see a hefe yeast in a saison as long as its not the only yeast. Theres a few saison yeasts (WLP566 WY3726 RVA-263) that I seem to get some clove/banana/bubblegum from at high temps like you would a hefe. How hot did you ferment it? I figured a hefe strain shouldnt be taken too warm...

 

[iBrewR]

Apart from that WY3711/WLP565/WY3726 blend, I keep all them separate now. I learned my lesson when I realized I wanted to try just using 3711 with another. I mean, its a great blend but I have no way of knowing what its makeup is now. Which may actually be truer to the saison style but whatever

So I build up separate small starters and pitche them together so it should get more consistent results. I havent gone more than 5 generations or so on any single strain yet.

How do you think these blends hold up for a second (or more) generation? Will one of the strains start to dominate or can I expect similar results when pitching from a slurry?

 

[m00ps]

How do you think these blends hold up for a second (or more) generation? Will one of the strains start to dominate or can I expect similar results when pitching from a slurry?

Aside from the first blend I made, I keep all my yeasts separate and have been doing a 50/50 blend each time. I would think that if you kept them together and repitched, one strain might start to edge out the other. But I still think youd retain characteristics from both strains

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Hmm...I could see a hefe yeast in a saison as long as its not the only yeast. Theres a few saison yeasts (WLP566 WY3726 RVA-263) that I seem to get some clove/banana/bubblegum from at high temps like you would a hefe. How hot did you ferment it? I figured a hefe strain shouldnt be taken too warm...

First 3 days was in the 85-88F range. I pitched around 68F I believe, threw my lamp on and pitched. It rocketed to 87F and kept it there for 7-9 days(at around day 5 fermentation started to tail off so it had a hard time staying above 85F). I took the light off, and left it for another 3 weeks at ambient and dropped from 72F to 59F during that time. I figured the Belle Saison would give me all the big spicy brightness and dry the beer out, and the hefe yeast would give me the fruity mouthfeel. It reminds me of the weirdness of big Belgians that are dry and boozey but still have a chewy mouthfeel which seems completely contridictory.

Though my current strain I have in the fridge I harvested from a dark weizenbock I fermented very warm in the mid 70s. So the 3068 I have in my fridge right now is already slightly acclimated to higher temperature fermentations. That may be why I don't have major issues with it at such high temperatures, if I took a fresh 1st generation smack pack and did the same thing I imagine it would not be a very happy yeast indeed.

 

[m00ps]

Im doing a fruity hefe next weekend. My yeast is a blend I combined a while ago of 3068 and 3638. How warm do you think I could take this to acclimate it? I harvest from the starter so I guess id try to get that a bit warm and see how the starter wort tastes

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Im doing a fruity hefe next weekend. My yeast is a blend I combined a while ago of 3068 and 3638. How warm do you think I could take this to acclimate it? I harvest from the starter so I guess id try to get that a bit warm and see how the starter wort tastes

The weizenbock I did I pitched from a warm starter 72F-ish, into warm wort of 75F-ish. It took off like a rocket and sat at around 77F for the first 5 days then dropped to ambient around 70F. I took a big spoonful of the cake and washed the yeast (I use the term "washed" loosely as I only did a single step to try and separate some of the trub from the yeast). For the sake of having all my notes, I pitched at approximately 10-12% underpitch than what BF yeast pitch calculator said (1.065 wort I think it was).

I tried another batch and wanted to push the limits on the 3068. Kept it at 85F by itself and it didn't produce yeast off-flavors. It does create a very bright crisp beer. Both the weizenbock and the second batch (almost all pilsner and sugar) did not have any of the banana character, though both expressed the clove fairly well. On the other hand there was a definite increase in stone fruit and citrus character expression. 3068 must have some sort of shared genetics with Belgian yeasts and the high temps must help naturally select the 'mutants' that like those temps.

 

[m00ps]

thats pretty cool. I wouldve expected a banana bomb but maybe the 70s is the limit for getting banana. Ill have to give it a try sometime

 

[secondbase]

I use a $20 rope tub + aquarium heater setup and just make saisons year round. Goes against the traditional roots of the style but I cant allow myself ot run out of them

This is exactly what I use. I can't handle not having one ready to drink in my house so I brew saisons year round.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

thats pretty cool. I wouldve expected a banana bomb but maybe the 70s is the limit for getting banana. Ill have to give it a try sometime

That definitely seems to be the case. Same yeast I have stored in the fridge I took it and built it up for a blueberry orange hefeweizen, and a roggenbier. Both I kept to 66-69F and it gave the expect blend of banana and clove character. Its definitely a surprisingly flexible yeast (though I think it may just be yeast are far more flexible in general). I'm pretty sure the extended high temperature fermentations cause the 3068 to clean up the banana esters and clove phenols much quicker.

 

[100amps]

I used a 50/50 blend of Danstar Belle Saison and 3711 at 20->24C. Loved it.

 

[m00ps]

I used a 50/50 blend of Danstar Belle Saison and 3711 at 20->24C. Loved it.

Those strains seem pretty similar in terms of performance and ester profile. im wondering, did the final product have a bit more spice like belle saison or more lemon like 3711? Also how low did this get on FG? IME, Im guessing it had to be close to 1.000 if you mashed low and didnt use too much specialty malts...

 

[m00ps]

Update2 on RVA-263 (Ghost Ale) & WLP585:
I think this was just green when I tried it last. It almost tasted hefe-like in its flavors which put me off since it was not at all what I was going for. Now it is nice and balanced between spice and fruit flavors. I cant really pick out the tart character from WLP585 that I love, or the Ghost Ale characteristics either. It is very good, but not something I'd try again.

What I am excited for is my WLP585+WY3711 coming up. Im hoping this will be extremely bright, tart, and have a really nice yeasty zing on the finish. The first time I tried to make it I had to dump the batch before it was a week old. I got a hop bag stuck under my heating element and it got scorched. Though ti might ferment out but at sampling it tasted like straight up rubbery burnt tar. So sad...

Update on both of these

RVA-263 (Ghost Ale) & WLP585:
Tried one of these yesterday and something hit me. I could distinctly taste fantome on the finish. I was certain. Its the exact flavor that lingers on your palate after taking a sip of any of their beers. The yeast doesnt carry their funky nose or taste, but the baseline is there. Kinda neat. The WLP585 is very tart but clean so it doesnt have a lingering finish. Im sure the taste came from the RVA


WLP585+WY3711:
Rebrewed this because I was so sad I had to dump it. Bottled it 3 days ago, at 1.000. It was very bright and a bit tart. I can't wait till its carbed. I think this may be my best one yet...

 

[m00ps]

I also just picked up YB Belgian Dry Ale. Supposedly this thing is capable of even higher attenuation than 3711. I cant wait to try it out in my super dry saison I made a few batches ago. Gonna shoot for below 1.000 this time

Has anyone used this? Im worried about taking it into the 90s....

 

[100amps]

Those strains seem pretty similar in terms of performance and ester profile. im wondering, did the final product have a bit more spice like belle saison or more lemon like 3711? Also how low did this get on FG? IME, Im guessing it had to be close to 1.000 if you mashed low and didnt use too much specialty malts...

I used both of these because I had conflicting recommendations from pro brewing friends to use one or the other. So I used both hoping for some added complexity. My recipe also uses orange blossom honey and malted rye, so I can't really nail down for you which subtlties each yeast contributed. All I know for sure is that there's lots going on and it's all good. I don't plan to change the recipe much, I'm happy with the yeast. (The hops still need a bit of tweaking.)

In retrospect, it wasn't 50/50 because I did not make a starter for the 3711. That means the Belle Saison likely had a significantly higher cell count.

I'm no seasoned saison expert, so I don't have much in the way of helpful details to contribute. I'm getting cravings for some of that saison though, so i might brew some more soon.

It finishes at 1.004 -ish.

 

[m00ps]

I used both of these because I had conflicting recommendations from pro brewing friends to use one or the other. So I used both hoping for some added complexity. My recipe also uses orange blossom honey and malted rye, so I can't really nail down for you which subtlties each yeast contributed. All I know for sure is that there's lots going on and it's all good. I don't plan to change the recipe much, I'm happy with the yeast. (The hops still need a bit of tweaking.)

In retrospect, it wasn't 50/50 because I did not make a starter for the 3711. That means the Belle Saison likely had a significantly higher cell count.

I'm no seasoned saison expert, so I don't have much in the way of helpful details to contribute. I'm getting cravings for some of that saison though, so i might brew some more soon.

It finishes at 1.004 -ish.

Thats cool. Was the finished beer very tart and lemony? or a bit more spicy? From what I remember, Belle saison was more balanced and had some spice in it whereas 3711 was just pure bright lemon character. I would guess you got more spice from using a greater %age of Belle Saison.