Experiences with different saison yeast blends

[m00ps]

I've been on a bit of a saison bender for the past :my entire brewing career: and one of my favorite things has been to blend yeasts. I feel like yeast is the heart of a saison, much like hops to an IPA. Single hop IPAs are great and can be very complex given the right hop, but isn't blending hops where its at? I say the same goes for saison yeasts.

Tooling around with various mixes, Im trying to find the perfect mix for my tastes. I havent gotten too scientific with it. Just been doing 50/50 with 2 yeasts usually (unless Im adding Brett to the mix), maybe ill fine tune it from there once I get a combo nailed. So here's what ive got so far with my tasting notes. I'm leaving out Brett'd blends for now since it just completely changes the entire yeast profile. I always taste the starter wort when decanting to try and get an idea of what the yeast will bring to the table. Ill try to add new ones as I go and hope that others will add their experiences:

WLP565/WY3724 & WY3711:
The classic combo intended to get Duponts signature peppery earthy lemon character with Frenchy's absurd attenuation. I do like this combo, the 3711 also tends it more toward fruit and gives what I would consider a "brighter" yeast character. Unfortunately, I actually cant do this blend anymore without buying new yeasts since I combined it a while ago with WY3726, which brings me to:

WLP565/WY3724 & WY3711 & WY3726:
This was my "house" saison blend for a while until I returned to brewing. Nicely well rounded character that doesnt jump too far in any direction but is definitely a trademark saison zip. I think the 3726 adds some more earthy spice character and maybe a hint of clove which seems to tame the very bright flavors of the 3711

WY3711 & WLP566:
This is my current favorite (although this remains to be seen once I taste the 3 others I have going). The 566 gives me a bit of bubblegum and banana which goes well with the lemony 3711 to round out the flavor. I dont get any spicy flavors from 566 so the 3711 gives a bit of that (more at lower temps than I ferment at though)

YB Wallonian Farmhouse & WY3711:
My idea here was to make the dryest. beer. ever. Both strains are known for their high attenuation (even among saison strains). Wallonian definitely brings some funk that is absent in 3711. This also seems to tame the bright lemon character of 3711 too and keeps the spice at a nice mid range. Very nice combo for a hop forward saison

YB Wallonian Farmhouse & WLP566
I thought this was going to be comparable to the earlier combo with 3711, wrong. The zippy bright lemon flavor from the 3711 is replaced by a more muted earth/spice which combined with 566, maybe even gets a hint of anise? The end result seemed sweeter than I usually expect from a saison (especially finishing at 1.003). Overall a very nice combo if you find some saisons to tangy and offensive.

YB Wallonian Farmhouse & WLP585:
This ones still finishing up but from the sample it may be my new favorite.
I havent used Saison III that much, but I really like it. It is just very different in how it behaves. The starter has little specks everywhere glued to the glass and its more tart than my sour starters are for the first month or so. My idea here was to have each play off each other where the 585 tartness will go with the Wallonian funk. In turn the Wallonian prevents it from being too fruity with its earthy spice.

RVA-263 (Ghost Ale) & WLP585:
Admittedly, this ones on the docket but Im excited and want to talk about it. I made a saison with the supposed fantome strain a while back and it turned out well, but didnt taste at all like fantome. To my tastes, it was one of the spiciest saison yeasts Ive tried. I thought this may have been due to my constant use of rye in my saisons, but from my recipe notes this was only pils/flaked wheat/honey malt so it had to have come from the yeast. Given its spicy flavors, I liked the idea of pairing with the bright, slightly funky, tartness of 585. Hopefully, this will get a bit closer to the actual blend that they use (without bugs obviously)

Danstar Belle Saison & WLP565/WY3724:
This was the first blend I tried so I'm having to go off just my notes. It should be pretty similar to the combo with WY3711 given the similarity to Belle Saison. I dont remember this one having the very bright fruity character I associate with 3711, says "definitely spicy, noteable lemon flavor" in my crinkled beer stained recipe notes.

other combos I want to try:
WLP565 & WLP566 (both supposedly from Dupont)
WLP565 & WLP585 (and maybe 566 to for a I, II, III saison)
RVA263 & Wallonian Farmhouse (should the spiciest one yet)
WY3711 & WLP585 (should be the most tart/citrusy)

 

[m00ps]

Oh and I should note that all of these were fermenting HOT. I usually start at 65, let free rise (carboy wearing my heaviest winter jacket) for 24hrs then jump it to the mid 90s. So Im sure the flavors would be a bit different if you went all at ambient temps. I also pitch them both at the same time as opposed to letting one get a headstart

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I haven't done this yet but was thinking about it. I tend to use a strain for 5 or more brews over about a year before ponying up money for a new vial. I've had great luck and consistent behavior of the strain with my harvesting/storage methods.

A question I had thinking about these blends: have they stayed consistent over multiple generations? I was just wondering if for example the 3711 will take over the 565/3711 blend over time or since your doing a 50/50 split you assume similar growth rates for both and it should stay close to 50/50 over 5 or 10 generations.

 

[m00ps]

Apart from that WY3711/WLP565/WY3726 blend, I keep all them separate now. I learned my lesson when I realized I wanted to try just using 3711 with another. I mean, its a great blend but I have no way of knowing what its makeup is now. Which may actually be truer to the saison style but whatever

So I build up separate small starters and pitche them together so it should get more consistent results. I havent gone more than 5 generations or so on any single strain yet.

 

[danthebugman]

Thanks for sharing . Yeast blending is a topic I've been interested in, specifically with saison strains, so this is right up my alley. Be interested to see what others contribute. What were your pitching rates if you don't mind me asking?

 

[m00ps]

I usually do 2 800ml starters, one of each strain. But that's just mainly because I can only fit about 1600ml to boil safely in a 2L flask. Sometimes Ill add it a bit more after the starter gets going but that's one area of brewing I never got too scientific about.

 

[m00ps]

Another blend I've tried, but not in a saison:
WY3864 (Unibroue) & WLP566:
I used this in my most recent Belgian dubbel and it blew me away. I wanted to cut down on the sticky sweetness dubbels can have but still keep that heavy plum/raisin character. So I decided to use a saison yeast with my favorite trappist-style yeast. I picked 566 because it doesnt have a very aggressive bite to it like some of the other saison yeasts. The bit of clove also worked well in the finished beer. This one I did like 2:1 ratio with the saison being the lesser. I really liked this combo, its my go-to beer for when I have a beer sampling and someone brings along their significant other who mostly enjoys wine.

 

[MannyEdwards]

I love this style. Glad I found this!

 

[Beerswimmer]

Another blend I've tried, but not in a saison:
WY3864 (Unibroue) & WLP566:
I used this in my most recent Belgian dubbel and it blew me away. I wanted to cut down on the sticky sweetness dubbels can have but still keep that heavy plum/raisin character. So I decided to use a saison yeast with my favorite trappist-style yeast. I picked 566 because it doesnt have a very aggressive bite to it like some of the other saison yeasts. The bit of clove also worked well in the finished beer. This one I did like 2:1 ratio with the saison being the lesser. I really liked this combo, its my go-to beer for when I have a beer sampling and someone brings along their significant other who mostly enjoys wine.

I need to try this in a quad!!!

 

[m00ps]

yeah I bet it would work very well due to the concern to get a low drinkable FG. Probably any saison yeast, just pick whatever flavor contributions youd like

 

[m00ps]

another idea I had:
WY3463 & your favorite saison yeast
I just tried a wit that I made where I blended WY3944 (hoegaarden) with WY3463 (forbidden fruit). Id used the 3944 before, but not the 3463. I read forbidden fruit smells like a dirty sock full of farts when it ferments and holy crap they were right. A bit of the funk carried through to the final beer. It almost seems more saison than wit to me since its also a bit tart as wit yeasts usually are. That funky nose is one of the things I would like in some (not all) of my saisons. So I think my next trial is going to have to be using WY3463 with something like 3711 maybe. Figure itll be bright, lemony and funky

 

[Skuee]

Thank you for making this thread. I just had this idea pop recently cause I finished bottling a dark saison about a month ago and I'm thinking of trying to generate new recipes using saison strains outside of summer styles.

 

[chickypad]

An interesting topic - thanks for posting m00ps and looking forward to hearing more of your results.

A question I had thinking about these blends: have they stayed consistent over multiple generations? I was just wondering if for example the 3711 will take over the 565/3711 blend over time or since your doing a 50/50 split you assume similar growth rates for both and it should stay close to 50/50 over 5 or 10 generations.

Michael Tonsmeire has a BYO article from March/April on this, and he also recommends m00ps' technique of growing them up separately then pitching. He references one instance where White labs found an initial 50/50 blend had drifted to 85/15 over 4 batches.

Edit: corrected the BYO issue

 

[m00ps]

another idea I had:
WY3463 & your favorite saison yeast
I just tried a wit that I made where I blended WY3944 (hoegaarden) with WY3463 (forbidden fruit). Id used the 3944 before, but not the 3463. I read forbidden fruit smells like a dirty sock full of farts when it ferments and holy crap they were right. A bit of the funk carried through to the final beer. It almost seems more saison than wit to me since its also a bit tart as wit yeasts usually are. That funky nose is one of the things I would like in some (not all) of my saisons. So I think my next trial is going to have to be using WY3463 with something like 3711 maybe. Figure itll be bright, lemony and funky

OK so after 2 weeks in the bottle, the funky nose of the witbier mentioned above is nearly absent from the final product. Im still curious to try out the combo with 3463 due to how fruity it is. Ive got a brett'd witbier in the works that Im thinking is going to make my entire condo smell like a locker room

 

[m00ps]

YB Wallonian Farmhouse & WY3711:
My idea here was to make the dryest. beer. ever. Both strains are known for their high attenuation (even among saison strains). Wallonian definitely brings some funk that is absent in 3711. This also seems to tame the bright lemon character of 3711 too and keeps the spice at a nice mid range. Very nice combo for a hop forward saison

This beer ended up finishing at 1.000 on the dot. I tried using room temp water to make sure my hydrometer wasnt out of whack. The wallonian farmhouse definitely tempered the lemony brightness of 3711 when used at high temps. So its pretty well balanced between earthyness and bright citrus. Ive found the wallonian farmhouse seems give it a greater perceived malt sweetness which is interesting. It doesnt taste as dry as some of the other saisons Ive done but its the 2nd dryest beer ive ever done.

 

[thefost]

Thanks for the info m00ps!

Another good yeast you might want to try blending is TYB Northeastern Abbey (aka Ommegang). Good stuff, recently made a split batch saison with Northeastern vs Wallonian Farmhouse. I preferred the Northeastern, which surprisingly ended up significantly drier.

 

[m00ps]

Thanks for the info m00ps!

Another good yeast you might want to try blending is TYB Northeastern Abbey (aka Ommegang). Good stuff, recently made a split batch saison with Northeastern vs Wallonian Farmhouse. I preferred the Northeastern, which surprisingly ended up significantly drier.

Where'd you hear it was Ommegang? Id searched everywhere trying to find out if its Ommegang or Allagash and couldnt find a conclusion. I love Ommegang and havent had great success stepping up their dregs

 

[thefost]

Good question, I just found a few mentions of it online and thought that it had been determined. Could be Allagash though. Guess I'm going to have to buy some beers from Allagash and Ommegang and compare

Where'd you hear it was Ommegang? Id searched everywhere trying to find out if its Ommegang or Allagash and couldnt find a conclusion. I love Ommegang and havent had great success stepping up their dregs

 

[m00ps]

hmm well either way I may have to check that yeast out. Ive found the YB wallonian saison yeast to be much different than the description. It attenuates highly, but I dont get any fruit, some earthy character, and it seems to accenuate malt sweetness.

 

[m00ps]

Curious, has anyone used any of the following lesser known saison yeasts?
WLP590 French Saison - comparable to WY3711?
INISBC-294 Saison: French
INISBC-291 Saison: Farmhouse
WY 3725 biere de garde

 

[m00ps]

YB Wallonian Farmhouse & WLP585:
This ones still finishing up but from the sample it may be my new favorite.
I havent used Saison III that much, but I really like it. It is just very different in how it behaves. The starter has little specks everywhere glued to the glass and its more tart than my sour starters are for the first month or so. My idea here was to have each play off each other where the 585 tartness will go with the Wallonian funk. In turn the Wallonian prevents it from being too fruity with its earthy spice.

So this one's still a bit young, but I couldnt be happier with how it turned out. WLP585 (which is a seasonal strain, snatch it up before its too late) is one of the least balanced saison yeasts Ive ever tried, but in a good way. I cant detect any spice, its just all citric tang with a hint of funk. Easily would be my first choice for a base yeast for a sour since its basically halfway there before you would even be adding microbes. Wallonian farmhouse is on the other side of the spectrum. Bit of spice, no fruit, and contradictingly seems to leave a bit of sweetness on your tongue. Together, they do very well to make a saison thats got a bit of everything I love about the style. This one I plan to tweak with different ratios. Probably try starting 1:2 with more WLP585.

 

[TriggerHappy]

excited for next summer when it heats up to try this. glad to hear others ferment saisons hot. gets the flavor right!

 

[Skuee]

My first attempt at a Winter Saison was fermented quite hot. I'm sure within the first 3 days it was at 90+. That was some monster attenuation which was unexpected. I'm waiting to crack one since it's still pretty warm outside. Can't wait to see what the body is like. 8.5ish%

 

[m00ps]

My first attempt at a Winter Saison was fermented quite hot. I'm sure within the first 3 days it was at 90+. That was some monster attenuation which was unexpected. I'm waiting to crack one since it's still pretty warm outside. Can't wait to see what the body is like. 8.5ish%

what strain did you use? ive found that even at +8%abv, there's never been any detectable alcohol no matter what strain I use

 

[Skuee]

what strain did you use? ive found that even at +8%abv, there's never been any detectable alcohol no matter what strain I use

Wyeast 3711, was a 2nd gen that I built up into a starter. I haven't dabbled with blending yet.

 

[m00ps]

well FWIW 3711 seems to impart a much more silky full body than youd expect given its attenuation levels. Definitely one of my favorite saison yeasts for blending due its properties other than taste. Though I do love its bright taste. its just a bit more 1-dimensional than most saisons

 

[Skuee]

There was an interesting White Labs Saison strain that I'm considering blending with.

I'm thinking of doing a series of Saison's with the concept that Nathan Smith had. SMASH-style, will probably have to wait till next Spring/Summer though.

His idea from a Beersmith podcast would be do a 3%, then 5-6%, then an imperial all by repitching onto the same cake.

 

[Skuee]

well FWIW 3711 seems to impart a much more silky full body than youd expect given its attenuation levels. Definitely one of my favorite saison yeasts for blending due its properties other than taste. Though I do love its bright taste. its just a bit more 1-dimensional than most saisons

Okay m00ps you were right. 3711 does seem a bit one trick pony, fruity but I'm wanting more flavors from the yeast character/esters. I popped the bottle of my winter saison I put in the fridge few days ago, I would say it has a medium body, lighter then I hoped for, but I think the alcohol adds to it.

You were also right that even at 8.5% the alcohol isn't noticeable/burny on the throat at all. I do feel it though about half way through the glass.

Also despite a short secondary fermentation in the carboy I didn't notice any bad off-flavors.

Cheers to blending and future experiments.

 

[m00ps]

Another thing about WY3711, Ive started using it to supplement attenuation in some of my beers like IPAs where I want to get it as dry as possible. Its bright lemony character may not mesh well with certain styles or types of hops though. I used it in a Sunny D centered IPA so I'd welcome a bit of that flavor. I tried pitching a small 600ml starter at high krausen once fermentation got rolling.

Also trying out my idea for a super tart non-wild saison by combining WY3711 and WLP585 this weekend. 585 is quickly becoming my favorite saison yeast, if you havent tried it, id recommend snatching it up while you can. Its seasonal and wont be around much longer this year

 

[Skuee]

I finally got the Farmhouse Ales book by Phil Markowski off Amazon. Good read...much to glean and learn from it.

 

[m00ps]

Update on YB Wallonian Farmhouse + WY3711:
This ones matured in the bottles nicely and now has a much more crisp edge to it. Dry as champagne and im loving it. Lemon is the most prominent flavor I can pick out and it finishes with a bit of a spicy edge. The body is great for how dry it finishes. Definitely a good combo

edit: got down to 1.000 exactly. Dryest non wild beer to date. Mission accomplished!

 

[m00ps]

RVA-263 (Ghost Ale) & WLP585:
Admittedly, this ones on the docket but Im excited and want to talk about it. I made a saison with the supposed fantome strain a while back and it turned out well, but didnt taste at all like fantome. To my tastes, it was one of the spiciest saison yeasts Ive tried. I thought this may have been due to my constant use of rye in my saisons, but from my recipe notes this was only pils/flaked wheat/honey malt so it had to have come from the yeast. Given its spicy flavors, I liked the idea of pairing with the bright, slightly funky, tartness of 585. Hopefully, this will get a bit closer to the actual blend that they use (without bugs obviously)

Not sure what to make of this one. Its in the keg, but only 16 days old from brew day so I'll give it more time to condition. At its final FG reading, I couldnt taste any of the bright tartness I get from WLP585 and there was definitely an almost hefe-like sweet clove thign going on. I'll see how it does after it conditions

side note: WLP585 is truly an interesting yeast. It leaves specks all over the flask every time and when I swish it up, it looks like a snowglobe. The yeast stays in big chunks that you can see and when you move the flask it looks like fresh powder snow being blown around on an early winter morning. Its done this every time ive used it. Never seen a yeast like it

 

[m00ps]

Update2 on RVA-263 (Ghost Ale) & WLP585:
I think this was just green when I tried it last. It almost tasted hefe-like in its flavors which put me off since it was not at all what I was going for. Now it is nice and balanced between spice and fruit flavors. I cant really pick out the tart character from WLP585 that I love, or the Ghost Ale characteristics either. It is very good, but not something I'd try again.

What I am excited for is my WLP585+WY3711 coming up. Im hoping this will be extremely bright, tart, and have a really nice yeasty zing on the finish. The first time I tried to make it I had to dump the batch before it was a week old. I got a hop bag stuck under my heating element and it got scorched. Though ti might ferment out but at sampling it tasted like straight up rubbery burnt tar. So sad...

 

[m00ps]

oh and this weekend I am going to use this new norwegian farmhouse yeast from Omega Yeast.

OYL-057: HotHead Ale -- An ale strain of Norwegian origin that has an astoundingly wide temperature range (62F-98F) with little difference in flavor profile across the whole range. It has a unique fruitiness that makes it complementary to modern hop varieties. Attenuation: 75-85%; Flocculation: medium-high; Temperature: 62F-98F.

Its got a higher temp range than anythign ive ever seen listed. I mean we all now saison yeasts can be pushed higher than given by the yeast manufacturer, but this thing looks very interesting. Still deciding what to pair it with...

Suggestions?

 

[Skuee]

Wow, that sounds interesting. So many yeast manufacturers now, I like it's temp range..makes me want to try it. Guess it just depends on what fruit esters you'd want from a pairing strain to help complement it.

My feelings are since you haven't used it before to do a SMASH with just that yeast, that might spark better combos as you drink it.

 

[m00ps]

yeah I might do something very simple with just the hothead alone in the future. I like to try the starter wort from each saison batch I do in order to get a better idea of the yeast's most basic character. But my first saison blend is getting old and needs reviving anyway so thats what I decided to pair it with

 

[m00ps]

OK so the Omega Yeast hothead strain is very intriguing. It is just as fruity as the Brett Blend I use. Easily the fruitiest sacch strain ive ever tried. Now to see what it does at 95F...

 

[m00ps]

WY3711 & WLP585:
I took a taste of this after it hit FG. Im letting it condition a few more days before bottling but this is easily the best tasting saison sample ive tried from my fermentor. So vibrant, tart, and the slightest hint of funk. I hope it only gets better in the bottle. 2nd one ive got down to 1.000 without brett or bugs

Next one is going to be using the Hothead Norwegian strain along with my current favorite saison yeast (WLP585). If all goes right this should be intensely fruity without any sweetness

 

[Skuee]

WLB585 sounds intriguing. I'll have to see if my LHBS stocks it next summer. I'd love to blend it with the 3711 like you did for some extra fruit kick. *Dreaming of summer saisons now*

 

[m00ps]

WLB585 sounds intriguing. I'll have to see if my LHBS stocks it next summer. I'd love to blend it with the 3711 like you did for some extra fruit kick. *Dreaming of summer saisons now*

Definitely get it! As you may be able to tell, I'm pretty obsessed with these yeasts and it is the most interesting, if not my favorite, of all of them.

It clumps up and really looks like a snow globe. Never seen anything like it. But it's taste is so tart it's amazing