Exctract v All Grain ? and ? on that "hombrewy" flavor

[wonderbread23]

I'd look at either the way you ferment you beer (pitching rates and temperature specifically), or suspect the bottling process and oxidation. My beers are indistinguishable from commercial beers.

 

[Fishing73]

If you were using eschatz recipe (which is a good one), and using the S-04 he recommends, I hope you were able to get your temps back down quickly enough. I believe the high end of the recommended fermentation temp range for S-04 is about 75F (24C). Thanks for your input, and I am sure the OP appreciates it. I have had a couple batches go up almost 8F myself, at the height of fermentation activity.

I was using a kit from NB. I got it down about 24 hours later. I had to go buy a plastic tub. I hope I didn't screw it up to bad.

 

[Indyking]

Uhuh...



And the quote below from John Palmer (How to Brew) is for both you and the OP (pay close attention to the bit in bold letters):





Or trust John Palmer.

Men, let it go... 10F mentioned in the book, fine, probably taken from some bizarre circumstances, those that are useful just to make a point in a book (ring a bell?), but it does not really happen in real life very often. Oh my...

 

[ThickHead]

let it go...

Let what go? The truth? Not likely.

If you wish to disregard the experience of others (particularly noted and published subject matter experts) which is outside of that of your own, that is perfectly within your right. However, advising beginners to dismiss it and trust no other but yourself is both arrogant and irresponsible.

Everyone in this thread is sharing personal knowledge (experience) to assist the OP because that is what was requested by the OP. You are the only person suggesting that your advice need be the only worth absorbing. It is unfortunate that you feel it necessary to do so.

 

[hal2814]

Uh, I mentioned trying spring water in the beginning of all this. BTW a cube cooler works great for bringing a keg to a party. Keeps the ice way longer. So this one $30 piece acts as a crash cooler, swamp cooler, and keg tub all in one.

I'm convinced the cube cooler is the greatest piece of equipment I own. I got two for $24 each at the Coleman Outlet and they absolutely rock. I can keep a 5 gallon Ale Pail fermenter between 48F and 58F with one 3-5lb daily ice addition. I can keep temps under 55F with two daily ice additions. It's no temp-controlled fridge, but at least I can properly ferment most lager yeast strains. In addition to your above uses, one of my two coolers is also an MLT. (I keep the braided hose from getting smashed by putting enough ice water in to float the fermenter a little.)

Back to the original question, I have to agree with the sea of advice here that problems you have when extract brewing won't magically go away by going to all-grain. However, all-grain isn't the boogeyman we make it out to be. It's not that hard. We just have a tendency to make it hard. If you want to give it a go, then by all means do so. Don't worry about not being ready. It's not magic or anything. It's just an extra step you do in exchange for a little more control over the beer-making process. If you are interested, I'd advise a partial mash using the DeathBrewer method or something similar at first. That way you don't have to sink much into equipment up front. If you're not interested in going to all-grain, then pursue whatever interests you in brewing.

 

[Indyking]

Let what go? The truth? Not likely.

If you wish to disregard the experience of others (particularly noted and published subject matter experts) which is outside of that of your own, that is perfectly within your right. However, advising beginners to dismiss it and trust no other but yourself is both arrogant and irresponsible.

Everyone in this thread is sharing personal knowledge (experience) to assist the OP because that is what was requested by the OP. You are the only person suggesting that your advice need be the only worth absorbing. It is unfortunate that you feel it necessary to do so.

OK thickhead, I'm not disregarding anything and please do show me where I suggested my advice is the only one worth absorbing. You are making incorrect assumptions, pure speculation to feed turmoil, nothing else, really sorry to say. It's up to readers to decide who they should listen to, but if anyone decides to maliciously judge instead of just accepting or rejecting an opinion, that's not my problem.

Since you want to insist in this subject, do you want do something far more useful for the OP?

I have had 7 beer batches so far, OG from 1.042 to 1.076 (I’m a beginner). I measured the wort temp with a thermometer on all them because I was checking the accuracy of the strip. The higher temperature increase I got during peak of fermentation to date was 3F... I will keep measuring every single one of them for now on and reporting here. You could do the same if you really want to help and make a useful point. Of course, other readers are welcome to do the same too, so let's all see how long any of us will take to break the 10F mark. Let’s just stop with the BS talk.

 

[Pappers_]

I measured the wort temp with a thermometer on all them because I was checking the accuracy of the strip. The higher temperature increase I got during peak of fermentation to date was 3F... I will keep measuring every single one of them for now on and reporting here.

I have done this (although not for quite a while) for the same reason you did - I wanted to see the difference between the reading on the strip thermometer and the actual temperature of the wort/beer. I did this on day 2 of active fermentation, when I thought fermentation activity was at a peak, and saw that the actual temp was 2 degrees higher than the reading on the strip thermometer. At the time, the reading on the strip thermometer was about 4 degrees higher than the ambient air temperature in the room.

Also, at this point I have a lot of experience with the yeast I use for most of my ales (Edinburgh). I aim for a fermentation temperature (as indicated by the strip thermometer) of 58 - 63, knowing that it will likely stay below 65. At those temps, Edinburgh works well, slowly but steadily and cleanly.

Indyking and Thickhead, you might consider not responding to each other for a while, there is little to be gained from further antagonism.

 

[Indyking]

Indyking and Thickhead, you might consider not responding to each other for a while, there is little to be gained from further antagonism.

Yep, I agree.

Thanks for the info BTW.

 

[mychalg9]

To the OP - I have had the same exact issue as you on the 2 extract kits I've brewed. My fermentation temps seemed to hover right around 68-70 F. I've done a lot of reading and a lot of the info I've gotten points to adding the extract later in the boil to resolve it. That is something I will try next time. It wouldnt hurt me to try to ferment cooler though. Ive given the beer a lot of time to condition/age and the taste seems to have faded a lot, although it still is noticeable. I am curious to try AG just to see if the taste will remain, because I had a feeling that it wouldnt be there still.

 

[alexdagrate]

Use late extract method for the last 10-15 mins

I add extract at flameout. Ever since I started adding about 80% of my extract at flameout, i've noticed NO extracty-twang that I used to always have. I'm convinced that carmelization is a huge factor.

One thing I don't think others have pointed out yet is that you've taken on some rather difficult recipes to start out with. Personally, I think it is better to pick a fairly simple style and brew several batches of it until you feel you are substantially improving. A simple style like American Pale Ale has very clean flavors and few ingredients, so you could taste off flavors and eliminate them by improving your process.

Taking on complicated recipes like a pumpkin ale and xmas ale is impressive, but not something I would recommend for the beginning brewer.

Try to make 3-4 batches of Pale Ales and see if you are able to improve things.

 

[Strangebird]

@alexdagrate - Are you using LME or DME? If DME do you not worry about infection by adding extract at flameout? Would it make more sense to add DME 5-10 minutes before flameout to make sure you kill anything?

 

[alexdagrate]

@alexdagrate - Are you using LME or DME? If DME do you not worry about infection by adding extract at flameout? Would it make more sense to add DME 5-10 minutes before flameout to make sure you kill anything?

I should've mentioned that I only use LME (it's cheap at my LHBS).

Other posters and I believe that the heat at flameout is sufficient to kill any nasties. I want to minimize carmelization as much as possible and therefore don't even boil the majority of LME at all anymore. It's worked well for the last six or so batches I've made.

 

[Strangebird]

For LME you should be safe anyway since it should be pasteurized (or the LME equivalent) before being sealed in the can. So I imagine unless you're careless you shouldn't ever have any issues.

Since for DME I had to weigh it on a scale, unless I sanitize the scale it would be much easier to get some nasty in there.

I still find it interesting that the idea of caramelization could be the cause of bad flavors in extract brewing. I would like to go AG in the next few batches, but in the mean time I might try this method of adding most of the extract at the end.

 

[CrustyBrau]

Last night I drank some of my first batch that used all DME rather than all LME. The "homebrewy" taste is gone. Looks like I may be done with LME. Unfortunately, DME is a lot more expensive.

I'm now on the hunt for a small upright freezer to turn into a fermentation closet. After that project is completed, it's about time to go all grain.

 

[BigEd]

OK, one question at a time.

Im about to get set up to brew All grain, based on what i've read this will give me much more control over the grains and other variables. Will I be able to achieve my desired color with All grain easier than exctract brewing?

Yes and yes, especially in regards to light-colored beers.

Also, do you believe the final product is noticably better Allgrain v extract brewing?

Yes but a well-made extract will be better than a poorly-made all-grain. Technique is as important as methodology.

My brews so far have all had a similar "hombrewy" flavor that's hard to describe, wierd thing is it's similar in all my batches whicha have been drastically different. I've done a Honey wheat, a Pumking clone, a Xmas ale, and now Valencia wheat.....and somehow they all have a common characteristic i can only describe as a homebrewy flavor...it's really not a great flavor either honestly, one i'd like to eliminate. It's almost a caramilzed flavor that leads me to beleive the extract has been carmalizing with my extract brewing

The carmelized "homebrewy" flavor you describe is likely due to a partial boil technique combined with malt extract and yes it is carmelization due to the concentration of sugars and the fact that those sugars in the extract have already been subjected to heat during their manufacturing. Extract beers brewed with a full-boil technique are much less likely to exhibit that characteristic and as an intermediate step to all-grain brewing can dramatically improve your beers.

or it could be i always use white labs yeast....possibly???

It's not the yeast.

Thanks for any suggestions/help...

Pretty much the same things that have already been mentioned. The other problems or lack of proper technique that typically result in that "homebrewy" flavor are lack of proper cleaning & sanitizing, poor fermentation temperature control and underpitching of yeast. It's a myth that homebrew has to taste like "homebrew". Clean and sanitize scrupulously, make sure the fermentation is done within the recommended temperature range of the yeast (ambient room temperature is not the fermentation temperature) and seriously consider making yeast starters for liquid yeast. For yeast if you want to keep it simple try going back to dry yeast. Fresh, quality dry yeast can make a very good beer and you can just dump one pack into a five gallon batch and not have to worry about it. Make sure you are using fresh, quality extract (dry probably has less carmelization problems) and consider using the "late extract addition" method or taking the step to a full boil volume on the way to going all-grain.

 

[ThickHead]

Indyking and Thickhead, you might consider not responding to each other for a while, there is little to be gained from further antagonism.

Thanks Pappers! I think we have managed to get ourselves under control and act like adults.