Exctract v All Grain ? and ? on that "hombrewy" flavor

[Wheatmeister]

Good, because that's not what I said.

I'm not trying to make the best the enemy of the good. At no time did I say that.

Thank you for supporting me on the equipment issue.

Wheatmeister, two things: Distilled water is actually about the worst choice for brewing liquor, and optimal temperatures vary.

Water chemistry is a complicated subject. For the purposes of this discussion, distilled water has all the minerals removed, minerals which are essential at various points in the brewing process.

The optimal temperature for fermentation depends on the yeast strain and what you're trying to accomplish. It's not as simple as "Ales ferment at 68F."

Bob

Great tip Bob. That being the case do you suggest I go with Spring water? As far as temps are concerned, should i just shoot for whatever the White Labs vial recommends?

 

[ThickHead]

Avg ferm temp for me is probly 70, maybe 71 to 72 tops. I'll also add the extract the last 15 of the boil for my next batch.

Remember...fermentation temp is NOT the temperature of the environment which your fermentation vessel is in. What I mean by that is this: If the room in which you are fermenting your beer is 72F your fermentation temperature is likely higher than that due to fermentation being an exothermic process (meaning it produces and gives off heat).

Additionally, I will echo the words of a couple posters who have already commented. Bob, IMHO, is spot on in his advice to you. Most experienced brewers will tell you that one of the most important contributions to improving their beer was fermentation temperature control (within the ideal temp range for the specific yeast used). Legin also gives solid advice in urging you to master extract first, prior to moving to all-grain. Some people start brewing by jumping straight into all-grain, and that is fine. However, if you cannot make good extract beer, going all-grain is not going to change that with immediate effect. Many, many, many people brew exclusively using extracts and make fantastic beers that have won countless awards.

Let me reiterate something before I go...fermentation temperature control is probably the single most influential factor in improving my beer. That, coupled with improving my pitch rate using Mr Malty, have increased the quality of my beer consistently by leaps and bounds. Please note that those two things I mentioned both have to do with yeast. So another +1 to Bob on...knowing your yeast.

 

[Wheatmeister]

Where can I learn more about pitch rates? And what's Mr Malty, website I can reference?
Thanks in advance..

 

[Wellshooter]

All of the above are good tips. For me, my extract brews tasted "canned" if you know what I mean. My AG brews don't have that.

 

[cheezydemon3]

I have brewed PM, then, AG, back to PM. What I found with PM that wasn't true of AG:

PM BREWS WITH DARK GRAINS NEED BAKING SODA TO GET THE PH RIGHT AND AVOID THE TWANG

Sorry, I think this is widely overlooked.

 

[cruckin78]

You want to brew the best beer you can? You get all the tools together and you learn your craft. You want to brew in a cave? Go ahead.

Bob

Awesome!

I agree with this 100%. I'm brewing extracts, and making excellent beer. I've had many strangers sample my beer, and I have not had a negative remark yet, so I must be doing something right. I want to step up all grain but I dont want to make the step until I have everything in place. So I am saving my pennys.

 

[ThickHead]

Where can I learn more about pitch rates? And what's Mr Malty, website I can reference?
Thanks in advance..

http://www.mrmalty.com/

 

[bradneal]

Great timing on this post. I have experienced the same flavor profile with my beers, and believe it wass attributed to the ferm temps. The last 2 batches I did, I fermented in a closet in my wine cellar, which is pretty much a consistent 66 degrees. The closet is between the wine cellar and the living area of my basement, so it's not as cold as the cellar, but warmer than the living area. Anyway, all that to say, my last batch did not exhibit the off-taste that I was blaming on extract kits.

So I guess it's time to pick up another fridge. But my wife is going to kill me... we have a fridge upstairs, one in the basement, a deep freeze, a kegerator, and a temp controlled wine cellar. My carbon footprint just moved to a size 12-D.

 

[smmcdermott]

Alright, while I tihnk everyone can agree on fermentation temperatures being one of, if not the biggest improvements when making your beer, we haven't talked about the OP's set up. I have been brewing for 1.5 years and have only done extract so far. Like most people, I am trying to save money for things other than brewing and cannot justify the $200 or so, that I need to buy a third fridge (kegorator is the second...). I think we need to stop debating this point and get back to the OP's set up.

In my limited experience, my extract brews got a lot better when I went to full boil and got an immersion chiller. I lost the weird flavor there. I do not have fermentation temp control YET (though it will be soon hopefully). Do you do full boils? how do you chill to pitching temps?

I do full boils with a late addition and found that my color, while a little darker, is still pretty damn close. I just did a Leffse Blonde and it came out great. Shocked myself really. My point is, look at your process first before going out and just buying new equipment.

 

[jerryalan]

Remember...fermentation temp is NOT the temperature of the environment which your fermentation vessel is in. What I mean by that is this: If the room in which you are fermenting your beer is 72F your fermentation temperature is likely higher than that due to fermentation being an exothermic process (meaning it produces and gives off heat).

How much does the temp of the fermenting beer typically raise? I'm asking because I've been reading the ebay aquarium temp controller thread and am in the process of acquiring parts. When it's finished I'm wondering if I need to set the controller to a couple degrees cooler than my desired temp since the probe will not be in the beer.

 

[Pappers_]

Temperature and overall control of your fermentation is closely related to how well you know your yeast - the level of experience you have with that particular strain. It has been a great enhancement for my brewing since I began using the Edinburgh strain (WLP028) for most of my brewing, because I now have many batches of experience with it and have my process dialed in with it.

For example, with this yeast, I find that I get excellent results when i ferment near or at 60 for at least the first two weeks, then let it rise up to 65-68, which is the ambient temperature in my basement/brewery-headquarters.

FWIW, I put the carboy in a rubbermaid-like bin with water and frozen bottles for the first two weeks of fermentation. For me, I enjoy the low-tech, handmade approach. But I also like grinding grain by hand, so take it for what's its worth.

 

[Bob]

Great tip Bob. That being the case do you suggest I go with Spring water? As far as temps are concerned, should i just shoot for whatever the White Labs vial recommends?

Spring water works fine for me. Not all waters are the same, though. Some have more dissolved minerals, some don't.

Optimum temperatures are generally specified by the yeast manufacturers as a range for each strain of yeast. You should pay careful attention to the manufacturer's specifications.* I usually advise fermenting toward the low end of the range. The inside of the fermenter will be a different temperature than the ambient temperature of the room/fridge/swamp-cooler where the fermenter resides, usually several degrees warmer. For example, if your fermenting room is 70F, the inside of your fermenter could be 74 or even 76F, depending on what stage of the ferment is ongoing.

In my limited experience, my extract brews got a lot better when I went to full boil and got an immersion chiller. I lost the weird flavor there. Do you do full boils? how do you chill to pitching temps?

A very good point, one I thought about addressing earlier. Those are questions which need answering.

Cheers,

Bob


* Except when you shouldn't. There are some situations where you can diverge from the recommendations and brewing wisdom. But for the nonce, stick with the recommended temps.

 

[JonK331]

Thank you for finally mentioning this! Before I learned water chem all my all-grains had a mild, similar taste to them I could not pinpoint. Considering water is 90% + of beer, it plays a huge role in flavor.

To move on to all-grains you want to be sure that you can produce extract beers with confidence. Because if you do an all-grain and it turns out bad, you'll have too many probable causes. Problems that can most likely be scratched off with extract brewing experience: fermentation temp, sanitization issue, the yeast, aerating the wort, old hops, old adjuncts, oxidation, etc. And of course there is no guarantees these won't occur in your all-grains. It's just best to get these out the way and possibly familiarize yourself with them before you add on a hundred other probable causes that come with doing all-grains.

As far as temp goes, depends on the beer. Usually the lower of the suggested, which will most often be 68. For Belgians I like to keep them around 72 to add to their funkiness.

Uh, I mentioned trying spring water in the beginning of all this. BTW a cube cooler works great for bringing a keg to a party. Keeps the ice way longer. So this one $30 piece acts as a crash cooler, swamp cooler, and keg tub all in one.

 

[bradneal]

As for water, I have an RO filter and use that. I know there has been tons of controversy over the best water to use, but I am happy with the results that I am getting with RO. It takes out the nasties, but doesn't completely strip it like DI or distilled does.

On a tour that the Anheuser-Busch brewery in St. Louis, I was told that they use RO water for their beers. That way they can make beer in different geographical locations and still come up with a pretty consistent flavor profile.

 

[ThickHead]

How much does the temp of the fermenting beer typically raise? I'm asking because I've been reading the ebay aquarium temp controller thread and am in the process of acquiring parts. When it's finished I'm wondering if I need to set the controller to a couple degrees cooler than my desired temp since the probe will not be in the beer.

In my experience, an average of 4-6 degrees F during active fermentation (I have heard tell of as much as 10F). It really does depend on the yeast strain, original gravity, ambient temp, duration of primary fermentation, etc, etc, etc (many, many variables). The best way to know is by gaining experience through measuring the temp of your fermenting wort during each batch you brew.

 

[Indyking]

In my experience, an average of 4-6 degrees F during active fermentation (I have heard tell of as much as 10F). It really does depend on the yeast strain, original gravity, ambient temp, duration of primary fermentation, etc, etc, etc (many, many variables). The best way to know is by gaining experience through measuring the temp of your fermenting wort during each batch you brew.

According to my strip thermometer, it raises just 2C or 3.6F, never went more than that.

 

[Wheatmeister]

Spring water works fine for me. Not all waters are the same, though. Some have more dissolved minerals, some don't.

Optimum temperatures are generally specified by the yeast manufacturers as a range for each strain of yeast. You should pay careful attention to the manufacturer's specifications.* I usually advise fermenting toward the low end of the range. The inside of the fermenter will be a different temperature than the ambient temperature of the room/fridge/swamp-cooler where the fermenter resides, usually several degrees warmer. For example, if your fermenting room is 70F, the inside of your fermenter could be 74 or even 76F, depending on what stage of the ferment is ongoing.



A very good point, one I thought about addressing earlier. Those are questions which need answering.

Cheers,

Bob


* Except when you shouldn't. There are some situations where you can diverge from the recommendations and brewing wisdom. But for the nonce, stick with the recommended temps.

I do not do full boils, I boil 3.5 gal and top off as my pot is only a 5 gal. No wort chiller yet either, chill in the sink with ice/cold water and the ol stir method. I will fix this with my next batch.

Based on what I've learned from this thread, here's how i would prioritize my changes for my next batch with the current budget i'm workin with:

To purchase:

wort chiller, temp regulator for fridge, spring water

Processes to do differently:

Boil as much as possible, about 4 gal.

Use late extract method for the last 10-15 mins

Chill wort much faster to much cooler temps before pitching

research yeast i'm using and try to get my pitch rate more accurate via MrMalty

Get my ferment temp consistent and at the lowest end of what's recommended by White Labs

Hopefully this will lead to my best batch of extract yet, any other suggestions I'm forgetting or blind to from the guru's at large?

 

[ThickHead]

According to my strip thermometer, it raises just 2C or 3.6F, never went more than that.

Which is why I began my statement with, "in my experience." Additionally, an adhesive strip thermometer on the outside of your fermentation vessel (as many of us use) is not the most accurate of instruments to measure the temp of the fermenting wort inside your fermenting vessel.

 

[Indyking]

Which is why I began my statement with, "in my experience." Additionally, an adhesive strip thermometer on the outside of your fermentation vessel (as many of us use) is not the most accurate of instruments to measure the temp of the fermenting wort inside your fermenting vessel.

Suffice it to say that I actually have confirmed by sampling my wort and taking the temperature. People always say strip thermometers are not accurate, so I tested it and concluded that, at least the one I have on my fermenter is pretty darn accurate, so that's another misconception people like to carry on... My fermenter has a spigot, so very easy to sample anytime without risking anything. Even my current stout (OG: 1.076) did not rise beyond 4F during the peak of fermentation, when I could hear bubbling upstairs (I ferment in the basement). 10F? I don’t think so…

 

[ThickHead]

Suffice it to say that I actually have confirmed by sampling my wort and taking the temperature. People always say strip thermometers are not accurate, so I tested it and concluded that, at least the one I have on my fermenter is pretty darn accurate, so that's another misconception people like to carry on... My fermenter has a spigot, so very easy to sample anytime without risking anything. Even my current stout (OG: 1.076) did not rise beyond 4F during the peak of fermentation, when I could hear bubbling upstairs (I ferment in the basement). 10F? I don’t think so…

I didn't say that strip thermometers weren't accurate. I said they are not the most accurate. I have found a temperature probe inside a conical to be more reliably accurate. I have expressed my personal experience accurately (4-6F). I have also expressed that I have heard tell (from a friend, it's hearsay) of 10F (this was in a huge barley wine). I added this bit of hearsay to express the principle point that fermentation temperature is typically higher than ambient temperature of a fermenting chamber (and can be unpredictable). The only way to truly know is to measure. If your experience is different than mine, I am sure the OP will be happy for your input.

 

[ThickHead]

I do not do full boils, I boil 3.5 gal and top off as my pot is only a 5 gal. No wort chiller yet either, chill in the sink with ice/cold water and the ol stir method. I will fix this with my next batch.

Based on what I've learned from this thread, here's how i would prioritize my changes for my next batch with the current budget i'm workin with:

To purchase:

wort chiller, temp regulator for fridge, spring water

Processes to do differently:

Boil as much as possible, about 4 gal.

Use late extract method for the last 10-15 mins

Chill wort much faster to much cooler temps before pitching

research yeast i'm using and try to get my pitch rate more accurate via MrMalty

Get my ferment temp consistent and at the lowest end of what's recommended by White Labs

Hopefully this will lead to my best batch of extract yet, any other suggestions I'm forgetting or blind to from the guru's at large?

Excellent comprehension of the sound advice given. I have personally never tried the "late extract method" but I certainly concur with the rest. Good luck! And let us know how it turns out. Also...one thing you might do as well is add a method of oxygenating your wort prior to pitching your yeast.

 

[Indyking]

I didn't say that strip thermometers weren't accurate. I said they are not the most accurate. I have found a temperature probe inside a conical to be more reliably accurate. I have expressed my personal experience accurately (4-6F). I have also expressed that I have heard tell (from a friend, it's hearsay) of 10F (this was in a huge barley wine). I added this bit of hearsay to express the principle point that fermentation temperature is typically higher than ambient temperature of a fermenting chamber (and can be unpredictable). The only way to truly know is to measure. If your experience is different than mine, I am sure the OP will be happy for your input.

Wow, sorry men, don't be such a thick head . Well, I suppose your picture avatar should be telling me I should be gentler with you? Anyway, I did not mean to cause any discomfort. Whatever you say… I’m fine with it.

But this is just for the OP, so please do ignore it, 4F maximum is probably what you can count on, trust me!

 

[Bob]

I do not do full boils, I boil 3.5 gal and top off as my pot is only a 5 gal. No wort chiller yet either, chill in the sink with ice/cold water and the ol stir method. I will fix this with my next batch.

Based on what I've learned from this thread, here's how i would prioritize my changes for my next batch with the current budget i'm workin with:

To purchase:

wort chiller, temp regulator for fridge, spring water

Good idea.

Processes to do differently:

Boil as much as possible, about 4 gal.

I think you're all right with 3.5 gallons. If you feel you can safely boil 4 gallons, and your burner can handle it, go for it!

Use late extract method for the last 10-15 mins

Sound.

Chill wort much faster to much cooler temps before pitching

Hell, yeah.

research yeast i'm using and try to get my pitch rate more accurate via MrMalty

Good. If you're using dry yeast, and you're brewing something below, say, 1.070, one 11-gram packet will usually suffice. The pitching calculator becomes really handy when you're using liquid yeast (White Labs or Wyeast).

Get my ferment temp consistent and at the lowest end of what's recommended by White Labs

For most strains that'll work fine. Check with HBT before brewing your next batch; if you let us know which strain you're using you can get lots of practical experience as to good ferment temps.

Hopefully this will lead to my best batch of extract yet, any other suggestions I'm forgetting or blind to from the guru's at large?

I think we've covered about 7,395 bases here, so I'll call it "covered".

Like damn near every activity, the way to get better - and indeed excel - is baby steps. You don't jump from n00b to black belt in 4 karate lessons.

Cheers!

Bob

 

[Marsdude]

I am not an expert brewer. All I can do is relate my experience.

I began with liquid extract and had a "twang" taste in my beer. I bought the extract at a LHBS that sells a huge amount of the stuff so I assume it was fresh.

I had an old fridge so I bought a temp controller and made a fermentation chamber for my next batch, which ended up having a "twang."

I made a immersion chiller to get my wort down to pitching temps in under 15 min., and the beer still had a "twang."

I made sure I sanitized the he** out of everything - "twang."

I used bottled water - "twang."

I filled sanitized jugs with the same water a local brewpub uses (a friend) - "twang."

I brewed my first all grain, did all sorts of things wrong this first time - great beer, no "twang."

I know people brew great extract beers, but that was my experience.

 

[snipper_cr]

This question was asked a few pages back but I dont think really got asked. How important is proper temperature control after a week or two - that is, after you beer has reached its FG.

Like many, I do not have the space for ANOTHER fridge in my tiny, 2 other roommate apartment. I already have the kegerator. So what I use is a swamp chiller. I fill a bathtub up with a few inches of water and wrap a towel around the fermenter and then put a fan on it. I then let that run for a while. It forms a nice buffer to even out the temperature changes of the day and I usually maintain +/- 2 degrees. However, after a week or so primary fermentation seems done. Can I then keep it in the room where temps range 65-80? I know 80 may be on the upper limit.

One day I may be able to get a fermentation controller. Incidentally, my "homebrew" taste when away when I went force carb in the keg system vs bottle with priming sugar. Who knew?

 

[mc_eric]

As I understand it, he main reason for keeping temps down during the initial fermentation is to minimize off flavors that the yeast produce while they are active. When fermentation is no longer happening, the yeast won't be producing those compounds, so temp control isn't as important. Obviously, you don't want to store your beer too hot or too cold, but holding it at, say, 75F after fermentation is not going to create off-flavors (but fermenting at 75 probably will). That said, I am by no means an expert on this...

I usually swamp-cool my beers to about 65F during the first 3-4 days of fermentation (going from the first signs of a krausen forming, not from the time I pitch yeast), and put the carboy in my basement (which stays around 68F most of the time) to finish up. Temp swings in the basement really don't seem to have any affect on the beer. But I'm sure keeping the beer at a constant temp throughout the process would be the best way to go.

 

[ThickHead]

Whatever you say… I’m fine with it.

Uhuh...

But this is just for the OP, so please do ignore it, 4F maximum is probably what you can count on...

And the quote below from John Palmer (How to Brew) is for both you and the OP (pay close attention to the bit in bold letters):

Chapter 8.1.3 - Temperature Factors

The third factor for a good fermentation is temperature. Yeast are greatly affected by temperature; too cold and they go dormant, too hot (more than 10°F above the nominal range) and they indulge in an orgy of fermentation that often cannot be cleaned up by conditioning. High temperatures encourage the production of fusel alcohols - heavier alcohols that can have harsh solvent-like flavors. Many of these fusels esterify during secondary fermentation, but in large amounts these esters can dominate the beer's flavor. Excessively banana-tasting beers are one example of high esters due to high temperature fermentation.

High temperatures can also lead to excessive levels of diacetyl. A common mistake that homebrewers make is pitching the yeast when the wort has not been chilled enough, and is still relatively warm. If the wort is, e.g. 90¡F, when the yeast is pitched and slowly cools to room temperature during primary fermentation, more diacetyl will be produced in the early stages than the yeast can reabsorb during the secondary stage. Furthermore, primary fermentation is an exothermic process. The internal temperature of the fermentor can be as much as 10F above ambient conditions, just due to yeast activity. This is one good reason to keep the fermentor in the proper temperature range; so that with a normal vigorous fermentation, the beer turns out as intended, even if it was warmer than the surroundings.

Brewing in the summertime is a definite problem if you don't have a way to keep the fermentor cool. My friend Scott showed me a neat trick though, he would immerse (not completely) his fermentors in a spare bathtup during the summer. The water in the tub was slow to warm during the day even though temperatures would be in the 90's, and at night the water would be slow to cool, even when the temperature dropped to 45 F. In this way he was able to moderate his fermentation temperature between 60-70 F, and the beer turned out great. I have used this method myself with wash tubs and had great success.

trust me!

Or trust John Palmer.

 

[Fishing73]

Thickhead, I was fermenting a Two Hearted clone. The ambient temp. was 70 and the strip thermometer was reading 78 before I got it into a swamp cooler. If the thermometer was correct that is pretty damn close to 10 degrees F.

 

[ThickHead]

Thickhead, I was fermenting a Two Hearted clone. The ambient temp. was 70 and the strip thermometer was reading 78 before I got it into a swamp cooler. If the thermometer was correct that is pretty damn close to 10 degrees F.

If you were using eschatz recipe (which is a good one), and using the S-04 he recommends, I hope you were able to get your temps back down quickly enough. I believe the high end of the recommended fermentation temp range for S-04 is about 75F (24C). Thanks for your input, and I am sure the OP appreciates it. I have had a couple batches go up almost 8F myself, at the height of fermentation activity.

 

[Strangebird]

If money for all that equipment is an issue, definitely make your own wort chiller. My lhbs sells them for $85 (which is certainly on the high side), but I just picked up 20' of 3/4" copper tubing the other day off craigslist for $20. Guy had replaced a water main during a house rehab and had it left over. It was already in a coil so it was easy enough to bend into a tighter coil around a bottling bucket. A few dollars in fittings and instant wort chiller. And the surface area compared to the standard 30' x 3/8" wort chiller carried at most hbs is actually about 15% more.