Espresso: another obsession

[nostalgia]

There must be other coffee nuts floating around in this forum

Here are some pictures of my toys. A QuickMill Vetrano which I plumbed in with a softener and charcoal filter. I also turned some custom bocote handles for it, since I also have a wood obsession. The grinder is a Macap M4.

My wife also roasts all of our own coffee with a Fresh Roast+.

 

[nostalgia]

Here's the grinder with some experimental wood lids I turned.

I also turned my own tamper and stand for it. A friend calls it the "Tamper Hamper"

-Joe

 

[jmulligan]

Ok, well I certainly don't have anything fancy like that. I only just started liking espresso in the past few months, when I had some at The Roasterie in Kansas City, MO. Their Organic espresso is AWESOME, and I currently have their Gotham espresso which is good, but not as great.

Here is my amateur machine.

 

[Evan!]

That's a nice machine. What kind of APR are you getting on the loan?

 

[Evan!]

And yeah, I'm a coffee freak/snob. I get my stuff from a local roastery, Shenandoah Joe. They're coffee geeks, man...I can go in there and get a lecture on the site where each coffee comes from, like I was talking to a winemaker. It's awesome.

I prefer El Salvadoran Cerro de Las Ranas (Hill of Frogs) in a French Press. And yeah, we dropped a couple hundred on a nice grinder that will actually give you French Press coarseness.

 

[nostalgia]

I prefer El Salvadoran Cerro de Las Ranas (Hill of Frogs) in a French Press. And yeah, we dropped a couple hundred on a nice grinder that will actually give you French Press coarseness.

I just started using a French Press for coffee at work and really love it.

Good call on the grinder. Especially for espresso, the grinder is *much* more important than the machine. That little DeLonghi posted above will make fine espresso if paired with a good grinder.

-Joe

 

[Evan!]

I just started using a French Press for coffee at work and really love it.

Good call on the grinder. Especially for espresso, the grinder is *much* more important than the machine. That little DeLonghi posted above will make fine espresso if paired with a good grinder.

-Joe

yeah, the grinder makes such a difference, but I've noticed that the real difference is on the coarse end. It's unbelievable, you really have to spend at least $150 to get something that will give you grounds coarse enough to not clog the french press screen and give you mud. I tried several machines that were relatively expensive and looked like they were well-made, but every one of them gave me Turkish dust on the coarsest setting.

I've been using this guy for like 4 years and it makes excellent espresso:

How much did that Rolls Royce you got there set you back, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[BlindLemonLars]

That little DeLonghi posted above will make fine espresso if paired with a good grinder.

Not really...it's a steam driven model. Which means your espresso is brewed at boiling temperature, which burns the beans and breaks down the essential oils. Not good eats! At the very minimum, you need a pump or hand driven machine, which don't depend upon steam to generate pressure. I used to have a cheap DeLonghi with a pump ($39 on eBay!) and it worked great. My current machine is a LOT more expensive, but the espresso is no better. (It has other benefits though...faster recovery time, bigger reservoir, better steam wand, etc.)

You're right about the grinder though, a proper burr grinder makes a big difference with all types of coffee.

 

[nostalgia]

Not really...it's a steam driven model.

Oh, I didn't realize that. I thought it was a vibe pump model. Yes, I agree with your assessment of the steam driven ones.

As for cost, I paid about $1500 for the Vetrano and $500 for the Macap grinder. I think I paid about $100 for the filtration setup.

Yeah, it's a lot of cash. But there were a lot of factors that made me decide to go this big.

• I have no kids
• It should easily last me the rest of my life
• I use it at least 2x a day
• Since it's plumbed in, I don't have to worry about keeping the reservoir full or running the reservoir dry
• Since it's got such a huge boiler, I *never* have to worry about running out of steam for milk drinks (great for parties)
• Since it's a heat exchanger machine, I don't have to wait for the boiler to heat up to steam temps after pulling a shot to steam milk (also great for parties, and for latte art so the crema stays fresh on the shot)

Oooo latte art. There's a fun pastime. Here are a few of my better free pours. A rosetta:

And a couple of tulips:

-Joe

 

[nostalgia]

It's unbelievable, you really have to spend at least $150 to get something that will give you grounds coarse enough to not clog the french press screen and give you mud.

This is so very true. I have here at work what I thought was a nice quality Cuisinart conical burr grinder. Besides being insanely loud, one corner of the ground coffee hopper is always packed with coffee dust, as you say. I have to scoop it out before dumping the coarsely ground coffee in my press.

I'm looking at picking up a Zassenhaus knee mill for grinding at work.

-Joe

 

[nostalgia]

Yikes. Looking at Chris' Coffee where I bought it, the Vetrano has gone up to $1795. The grinder is now $549. They did knock $100 off when I bought both together.

I just remembered a couple other things that set the Vetrano apart from the other ones I looked at:

• No-burn steam and hot water wands. These are double-jacketed so the entire wand stays cool. IOW, milk doesn't burn to the wand nor does it burn the back of your hand.
• Rotary pump. Quieter and more even than a vibratory pump.
• Commercial valves on the steam and hot water wands which don't require any pressure to turn off.
• Commercial pressure stat

-Joe

 

[JustDave]

Man, you guys are hardcore! In a good way.

 

[jmulligan]

Not really...it's a steam driven model. Which means your espresso is brewed at boiling temperature, which burns the beans and breaks down the essential oils. Not good eats!

Yeah, when I started researching machines, I realized I needed to get a pump model for better espresso. Unfortunately, my mom gave me this spontaneously before I could buy my own, and I didn't want to tell her it wasn't the right kind (she got it on eBay).

Considering I never drank coffee until about a year ago when I got my French press, I think I can hold off on a nicer model (especially since most of the "fun" funds I have go to brewing).

 

[adrock]

Resurrecting this thread 'cause I thought it was as good a place as any to ask a few questions.

I'm looking into getting an espresso machine and grinder for my birthday in 2 weeks. I'm not going to go elaborate: For the machine I plan to get a pump-driven model that has very few extra bells & whistles. I saw one at Bed, Bath, & Beyond for $150 or so, which will likely be just fine for me.

The confusion for me comes in when looking for grinders. It appears burr grinders are the way to go for espresso, which I assumed, but now I've found that there are at least 2 types........flat-plate and conical. From everything I've read it sounds like conical burr grinders are more diverse, allowing you to even make turkish coffee grind if you like, and they produce less heat from friction than a plate burr grinder.

Will I notice the difference in these 2 types of burr grinders for espresso? Can a quality conical burr grinder be had for under $150 or so? What specific machines can you folks recommend for me?

 

[nostalgia]

Hey adrock. Let me see if I can add some useful info

I'm looking into getting an espresso machine and grinder for my birthday in 2 weeks. I'm not going to go elaborate: For the machine I plan to get a pump-driven model that has very few extra bells & whistles. I saw one at Bed, Bath, & Beyond for $150 or so, which will likely be just fine for me.

These machines are a good starting point. One thing to keep in mind is that it will likely have a "pressurized portafilter", which means the portafilter (the place where the coffee grinds go) has a pressure plate that is supposed to whip air into the espresso to simulate good crema. Nice crema is generally a sign of a good espresso shot, but not when it comes from one of these pressure plates.

Also check if it's a true boiler machine or a thermoblock. Boilers maintain water at a certain temp/pressure in their boiler and are generally better and more consistent than a thermoblock, especially for steaming.

The confusion for me comes in when looking for grinders. It appears burr grinders are the way to go for espresso, which I assumed, but now I've found that there are at least 2 types........flat-plate and conical. From everything I've read it sounds like conical burr grinders are more diverse, allowing you to even make turkish coffee grind if you like, and they produce less heat from friction than a plate burr grinder.

Burr grinders are definitely the way to go. Yes, conical burr is better, but not all conical burr grinders are better than all flat plate grinders. What is more important than flat/conical burrs is consistency, adjustability and fineness of grind.

For example, my $500 Macap M4 flat-plate grinder is far better than the $30 conical-burr Cuisinart I have. The Cuisinart can't even approach the fineness of grind necessary for espresso. And the Macap is also extremely quiet in comparison. The burrs are very large and run more slowly than the Cuisinart, thus generating less coffee-ruining heat.

Do you have a specific budget? I can help do a little research on a good grinder choice.

And if you're looking to get into a better espresso machine at a good price, check out the Gaggia models or the Rancilio Silvia.

Oh, almost forgot. You can always call over to Chris' Coffee Service with any questions. That's where I bought my equipment. They're very helpful and have a lot of nice product in stock. Tell them I said hi

-Joe

 

[adrock]

Joe, thanks for the quick reply. This espresso stuff is confusing business......I'm glad there's someone willing to help me wade through it a bit! Judging from the description of your previous posts, what I'll be buying will be junk as compared to your set-up. No hard plumbing, no custom-made handles (though I do plan to have a friend mill me a tamper from aluminum). But who knows? Maybe this will be a second gateway to an endless money hole (brewing beer is of course the first).

One thing to keep in mind is that it will likely have a "pressurized portafilter", which means the portafilter (the place where the coffee grinds go) has a pressure plate that is supposed to whip air into the espresso to simulate good crema. Nice crema is generally a sign of a good espresso shot, but not when it comes from one of these pressure plates.

Does this mean I should avoid pressurized portafilters, or are you just saying that the crema won't be indicative of the quality of the shot?

Also check if it's a true boiler machine or a thermoblock. Boilers maintain water at a certain temp/pressure in their boiler and are generally better and more consistent than a thermoblock, especially for steaming.

I just checked this out and indeed, the espresso maker I had targeted has a thermoblock. I read a little bit into it, and the main argument appears to be that a thermoblock (arguably) can't produce the same temp. stability of incoming steam as well as a boiler system..........there were some differing opinions on the subject. Do you find this to be the case? If so, how important is this discrepancy on the final product? Keep in mind I'm on a budget, but I do want to produce good-quality espresso.

Do you have a specific budget? I can help do a little research on a good grinder choice.

Don't mind if I take you up on that! This will actually be a gift, so it's not my limit per se, but I'd feel rather guilty asking anyone to spend more than say $200 on either item. Meaning I'd like to get the whole ball of wax for under $400. Here is the espresso machine I initially had my on; admittedly my selection process was finding the cheapest, simplest looking pump-driven espresso machine at Bed Bath & Beyond. Looks like I have more work to do!

One more question, if you haven't already grown tired of my noob-ness. I've seen that the nicer models all appear to be variable pressure. What does this do for you? Is it for larger quantities? Different strengths? How important would it be for a guy that just wants some espresso before he heads off to work, or after a nice dinner?

 

[Orpheus]

Adrock,

Pour the bulk of your money into a good grinder. You can make excellent shots of espresso on a $30 Aerobie Aeropress with a quality $300 grinder like a Rancilio Rocky. If you don't have a big budget, this is the easiest way to get an excellent setup. Start with the grinder, you can use it for everything, then ramp up to a proper espresso machine, if you really decide you want to go that route.

Here's the site for the aeropress:

http://www.aerobie.com/Products/aeropress_story.htm

A great place that I visit often is www.coffeegeek.com

Next thing you know, you'll be roasting your own beans!

 

[nostalgia]

Actually Orpheus gave you some awesome advice. I've heard some really good things about the Aeropress, and if you put most of the money into a good grinder like the Rocky you'll be ready to upgrade to a better machine when finances allow. That's a really great suggestion. And CoffeeGeek is a great place to hang. My handle is the same there as here.

But back to your post:

Does this mean I should avoid pressurized portafilters, or are you just saying that the crema won't be indicative of the quality of the shot?

Hmm...both, really. The shot just doesn't have the same mouthfeel when pulled with a pressurized portafilter...it's not really espresso, if you get my meaning?

Do you find this to be the case? If so, how important is this discrepancy on the final product? Keep in mind I'm on a budget, but I do want to produce good-quality espresso.

I haven't done much testing with a thermoblock machine, but all of the research I have done points to a true boiler being better. More stable temperature, more steam available. There's a reason you only find thermoblocks on the cheap machines.

Just wait until you start researching the differences among single boiler, heat exchangers and double boiler machines

Here is the espresso machine I initially had my on; admittedly my selection process was finding the cheapest, simplest looking pump-driven espresso machine at Bed Bath & Beyond.

Yeah, a machine like that will make a passable espresso-like drink, but after you've had shots pulled from someone with a good machine and grinder and knows how to use them you won't be happy any more

You also won't have the same steam performance if you do milk drinks. And if you want to get into latte art (don't we all?) you will have a tough time getting a good microfoam to draw with.

One more question, if you haven't already grown tired of my noob-ness. I've seen that the nicer models all appear to be variable pressure. What does this do for you? Is it for larger quantities? Different strengths? How important would it be for a guy that just wants some espresso before he heads off to work, or after a nice dinner?

No, I always love talking shop

Variable pressure is unimportant to almost everyone. My machine has a dual gauge so I can make sure the pressure in the boiler and the head are within the proper range for good espresso, but I never actively change the settings. I'd have to take the machine apart to do that.

-Joe

 

[Nate]

Very nice setup. I'm actually retiring our expresso machine in favor of the French press. It's not espresso but it's awesome coffee.

 

[Soulive]

I'm really into coffee, just not espresso. Like consuming beer, I like to "volume consume" (BM) my coffee as well. Little cups of espresso just don't last long enough for me. I guess I could make some nice Americano with one of those machines though...

 

[adrock]

I checked out coffeegeeks.com, joined the forum, and posed the noob question to those guys. The first response says that a Gaggia Coffee and Gaggia MDF grinder may work for my needs. That brings the whole thing up to about $500 but if it works well, I'll spend that. What do you guys think?

Also, can someone explain what the hell a "doser" is?

 

[nostalgia]

I checked out coffeegeeks.com, joined the forum, and posed the noob question to those guys. The first response says that a Gaggia Coffee and Gaggia MDF grinder may work for my needs. That brings the whole thing up to about $500 but if it works well, I'll spend that. What do you guys think?

Also, can someone explain what the hell a "doser" is?

I don't know much about the Coffee and MDF but have heard nothing but good things about them. I was considering a Gaggia for my first machine, but Mary over at Chris' Coffee managed to talk me into the Vetrano.

A doser is that thing that looks like a growth coming out the front of my grinder. It's basically a hopper for the ground beans. You use a lever on the side to "dose" the ground coffee out the bottom.

For espresso you want the coffee to be ground immediately before using. Coffee shops go through coffee quickly, so they can pre-grind a bunch of coffee into the doser and just dose it out as needed.

So we home espresso makers don't really need a doser, but it's nice for a couple of reasons. If you don't have a doser on your grinder you have a chute (looks like a nose). That chute tends to hang on to quite a bit of ground coffee forcing you to stick a chopstick or something up in there to clean it out. The doser also breaks up any clumps and can help with a more even distribution in the basket.

It's also a lot more fun Here's a video of me playing with mine. Some elitist clowns got all upset about me sweeping back into the doser so they rating bombed it. Wah wah wah.

[youtube]LmgwBD138No[/youtube]

Also note that the coffee should be freshly roasted as well. You'll notice a huge difference in how the shot is pulled when the beans are fresh or old. I didn't believe this at first, then I tried pulling shots with old coffee. The difference was night and day.

-Joe

 

[Orfy]

Okay, we've done this thread several times before.
You have a nice machine.

Here's mine. Adjustable grind, quantity, temp and pressure.

 

[nostalgia]

Ooo shiny! Looks nice integrated with the ovens. What is that? Looks like a 70's hi-fi unit

-Joe

 

[Orfy]

Yup it's my stacker system, food and beverage kind. (Needed A polish in that picture)
It's an Italian machine branded CDA for the UK

It makes good use of it's size. fully digital controls with full adjustability on everything that counts. Built in adjustable (manual) grinder.

$1400 dollars worth. I got it discounted by $1400

 

[BlindLemonLars]

Yup it's my stacker system, food and beverage kind. (Needed A polish in that picture)
It's an Italian machine branded CDA for the UK

It makes good use of it's size. fully digital controls with full adjustability on everything that counts. Built in adjustable (manual) grinder.

$1400 dollars worth. I got it discounted by $1400

Hey Orfy, you're a mod...how about correcting the typo in this thread title?

You might say I'm "obsessed" with this particular typo, it bugs me every time I see it.

EDIT: Thanks!

 

[TxBrew]

I like to drink Espresso, usually grab one every morning lately.

I would love to brew my own but haven't came across a machine at any local store.

Any suggestions on brand/models. Can you get anything quality for under $500?

 

[McKBrew]

I personally think my sub $100 machine makes coffee every bit as good as some of the stuff I pay $4 for from an espresso stand. Still wouldn't mind having something a bit spendier.

 

[McKBrew]

I like to drink Espresso, usually grab one every morning lately.

I would love to brew my own but haven't came across a machine at any local store.

Any suggestions on brand/models. Can you get anything quality for under $500?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=65258

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I like to drink Espresso, usually grab one every morning lately.

I would love to brew my own but haven't came across a machine at any local store.

Any suggestions on brand/models. Can you get anything quality for under $500?

Gaggia Baby for around $500
For about half that amount, you can buy a Gaggia DeLuxe or Gaggia Coffee. In both those units, the naughtybits are identical to the Baby, you just have fewer electronics and other convenience stuff, but the espresso will be equally good. One of those convenience items, for instance, is a blow off valve that allows the steam release after finishing the shot. The cheap machines require time for the pressure to naturally work its way out of the machine through the grounds. It takes maybe a minute or two at most.

The other great espresso machine is the Rancilio Silvia (Also around $500).

Other "great" names in espresso machines include ExpoBar, but they tend to be more semi-professional; and Microcasa, which makes the most beautiful espresso machines you'll ever see in your life. Microcasa actually makes a manual lever machine (no pump, you actually have to build up the pressure yourself using a lever) which is absolutely beautiful. A slightly cheaper manual pump machine is made by La Pavoni- another good company.


Don't forget though that with a $500 espresso machine, you still need a $300 grinder. I kid you not here, the grinder makes a bigger difference than the espresso machine, so figure it in to your price. There are very few grinders that give passable results for less than $300.