Erdinger Hefeweizen clone...

[damnyankee]

With all due respect, that feels like a step backwards from where you were. Color and IBU seem off, and Jackson's hop bill was better. A heck of a lot easier though. I am sure it will taste good, but not as close to a clone as before.

Hi RSR,

This is my 3rd brew ever, so I'm a newbie who's learning. I was going to take the DME and calculate the conversion to grain. The DME recipe seems to be missing one of the hops as well, so I was going to sub one of the tettnangs.

If you were doing this brew, how would you write up the grain recipe?

Thanks in advance,

DY

 

[therealrsr]

Please don't take my comment the wrong way, I was just having fun formulating with you. I also wanted you to find a spelt supplier for me. Pre-qualifier, there are many around much better at conversions than me so I will leave that to them and instead explain where I would start.

If it were me I would start at 1 part Malted wheat to 1 part Pale or Pilsner. Assuming his wheat extract was 60% wheat and 40% Pale, he was closer to a ratio of 2 part malt to 1 part wheat. With those sweeter notes I'd throw in a bit of 20 or so Crystal or up the malt ratio.

He had 7# extract, using a .6 grain to extract conversion, that gives a bill of 11.5#. I could not get this to hit style in BeerSmith. 10.5 came just a hair above 1.056 vs. 1.052 as top end for style 15A.

5# Wheat Malt
5# Pilsner Malt
.5# Crystal 20

Pearle was hard in Beer Smith to as a high IBU contributor as a bittering so I dumped it. I know I can't get get it form my pretty well stocked LHBS w/o special order. Style is 10-20 IBU

Erdinger
Weizen/Weissbier

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Brew Pot (6+gal) and Igloo/Gott Cooler (5 Gal)

Ingredients

5 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 47.62 %
5 lbs Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 47.62 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 4.76 %
0.50 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] (35 min) Hops 6.9 IBU
1.00 oz Tettnang [4.50 %] (10 min) Hops 5.7 IBU

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.056 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.36 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 %
Bitterness: 12.6 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 5.1 SRM Color: Color

Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 10.50 lb
Sparge Water: 4.23 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 13.13 qt of water at 165.9 F 154.0 F

 

[damnyankee]

Oh I wasn't offended at all, don't sweat it.

As for the recipe, I was thinking something like a 50% Wheat/10% Spelt with 40% 2 row. Could I use Spelt flakes? I'll have to plug that in to BeerSmith when I get home.

I haven't used Crystal Malt (only seen it listed on recipes) so I'm clueless as to how that would impart a flavor/texture onto the finished product.

I'm saving yeast from my Erdinger Weissbier bottles; unless I'm reading the comments wrong, it sounds like there may be two yeasts used. I'm wondering if champagne yeast is used either in the primary wort or bottling process? I just don't know enough about yeast yet.

Thanks for posting your recipe. Sounds great!

DY

 

[therealrsr]

Crystal should add malty sweetness. I would suggest sticking with a good weiss yeast for fermenting and grow the culture for bottling if you like. WLP300 or Wyeast 3068 or 3333. Although the carbing will likely come from both yeasts unless you filter or kill it before the bottling.

I just had a Weihenstephan Hefe Weiss with my reuben for lunch, so talking about this is making my mouth water. A bit to the bazooka joe side for my taste, but still excellent.

I got a northern english brown in the batters box for tommorrow, but a traditional bavarian weiss is coming up after all this talk. Funny thing is I still have a belgian style wit in the secondary. I need to drink faster and find some spelt.

 

[damnyankee]

RSR,

I just read McFarland's book, here's what he wrote about Erdinger Weissbier (he his descriptions, he obviously toured the plant):

"....Bespoke wheat and barley grown by local farmers, water sourced from a 75-foot well beneath the brewery, and hops (Perle, Tettnang, and Hallertau) sourced from Germany's Halltauer region are united in strict accordance to the Bavarian Purity law of 1516, the Reinheitsgebot.

"Its approach to fermentation is where Erdinger differs from its wheat-beer rivals. Primary fermentation occurs in shallow, rather than towering, tanks less than 9 feet high, while secondary fermentation in the bottle/keg comes courtesy of lager yeast rather than the traditional top-fermenting yeast. Why? The brewery claims that it prolongs shelf-life and improves consistancy which, with Erdinger Weissbier exported to more than 70 countries, can only be a good thing..."

So RSR - that answers my question about the two yeasts. So I can use a traditional Hefeweissen yeast for primary as per your recommendation and the yeast I've harvested from the Weissbier bottles is the lager yeast which I'll use for bottle fermentation. COOL!!!

 

[damnyankee]

Well RSR,

Will this work???


Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 5.75 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Equipment: Brew Pot (6+ gal)

Ingredients:

5 lbs Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 53.63%
4.5 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) 47.37%
0.5 oz Hallertauer Mittlefrueh [4.00%] (90 min) Hops 7.6 IBU
0.5 oz Tettnang [4.5%] (45 min) Hops 7.3 IBU
0.25 oz Pearle [8.00%] (13 min) Hops 3.2 IBU
1 Pkg White Labs WP300 Yeast

Beer Profile:

Est Original Gravity: 1.054 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.33 %
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 %
Bitterness: 18.0 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 4.3 SRM Color: Color

For bottling, I'll be adding Erdinger's lager yeast I've harvested, but I don't know how much to add to the cooled priming sugar. Should I add the whole cake?

DY

 

[therealrsr]

Well RSR,

Will this work???


Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 5.75 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Equipment: Brew Pot (6+ gal)

Ingredients:

5 lbs Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 53.63%
4.5 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) 47.37%
0.5 oz Hallertauer Mittlefrueh [4.00%] (90 min) Hops 7.6 IBU
0.5 oz Tettnang [4.5%] (45 min) Hops 7.3 IBU
0.25 oz Pearle [8.00%] (13 min) Hops 3.2 IBU
1 Pkg White Labs WP300 Yeast

Beer Profile:

Est Original Gravity: 1.054 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.33 %
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 %
Bitterness: 18.0 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 4.3 SRM Color: Color

For bottling, I'll be adding Erdinger's lager yeast I've harvested, but I don't know how much to add to the cooled priming sugar. Should I add the whole cake?

DY

A 90 minute boil? 5.75 boil might, likley will, come up short.

What is your efficiency set at? 5.3% from 9.5# grain seems pretty efficient.

Not that the guidelines are set in stone, but perle is listed as a bittering only. Not sure what the 13 minute boil would produce. Be fun to find out though, but may be a risk.

Also, limited help on the second yeast. Like most others I use the residual suspended yeast in the beer for carbing in bottle. You will have both yeast working in the bottle unless you pasteurize or other before bottling. Therefore, I would stay to the lighter end of enough. Also, as a lager yeast you will need to keep the carbing bottles in a colder range than most homes provide normally, going to the lower end should help Lager yeast dominate the Ale yeast in carbing.

 

[jaba]

I still think that WLP300/Wyeast 3068 is going to give you too much banana and clove flavor for a true clone. Erdinger is one of the least estery/phenoly true german hefe's I have tasted. Wyeast 3056 is much more subdued and will make a better clone imo. Wyeast 3333 would be alright too, though even that may be too much. WLP300/3068 will make you a great hefe, but it very well may not taste like Erdinger.

Controlling your fermentation temperature is going to be a huge part of getting this right. A large part of the flavor profile in hefes is all from the yeast. Ferment it cool, don't let it get above 65.

 

[damnyankee]

A 90 minute boil? 5.75 boil might, likley will, come up short.

What is your efficiency set at? 5.3% from 9.5# grain seems pretty efficient.

Not that the guidelines are set in stone, but perle is listed as a bittering only. Not sure what the 13 minute boil would produce. Be fun to find out though, but may be a risk.

Also, limited help on the second yeast. Like most others I use the residual suspended yeast in the beer for carbing in bottle. You will have both yeast working in the bottle unless you pasteurize or other before bottling. Therefore, I would stay to the lighter end of enough. Also, as a lager yeast you will need to keep the carbing bottles in a colder range than most homes provide normally, going to the lower end should help Lager yeast dominate the Ale yeast in carbing.

Thanks for your input, RSR. For the hops, I played for 2 days in Beersmith to get the grain/hops/times combination until I got the 5.3% alcohol and 18 IBU. This is just a guess. If nothing else, it's still going to be a great tasting brew and I'll take notes, learn from my mistakes, and redo the recipe and try again.

As for the yeast, I'm just guessing. I'll pitch WP300 first time around and then add the harvested Erdinger Weissbier yeast during bottling time. I was SERIOUSLY thinking about adding champagne yeast but I changed my mind at the last moment during my order from Northern Brewer.

Wish me luck!

DY

 

[damnyankee]

I still think that WLP300/Wyeast 3068 is going to give you too much banana and clove flavor for a true clone. Erdinger is one of the least estery/phenoly true german hefe's I have tasted. Wyeast 3056 is much more subdued and will make a better clone imo. Wyeast 3333 would be alright too, though even that may be too much. WLP300/3068 will make you a great hefe, but it very well may not taste like Erdinger.

Controlling your fermentation temperature is going to be a huge part of getting this right. A large part of the flavor profile in hefes is all from the yeast. Ferment it cool, don't let it get above 65.

Jaba,

You may very well be right about both of those yeasts. I looked at 3056 to pitch in the primary and champagne yeast to add in the bottling process but went, "Nyahhhh....this is my 3rd batch of homebrew so it's OK to learn from mistakes. I went with the WP300 and Erdinger's bottling yeast.

It may not be the true clone, but it should be pretty tasty. And thanks for the reminder of keeping it cool; my house is 65 during the day, 60 at night so it should be OK.

I wonder if anyone else took a stab at this recipe...?

DY

 

[therealrsr]

If nothing else, it's still going to be a great tasting brew and I'll take notes, learn from my mistakes, and redo the recipe and try again.

Wish me luck!

DY

That's the spirit! Be sure to revive this thread and let me know how it turns out. Erdinger is a clean wheat, vs. fanz and weihen. Keeping those ferment temps under control like he recommended should help control the bananas in your beer. Personally I love the banana and clove, but can not stand when it goes to Bazooka Joe.

No luck needed, it'll be a great beer even if it doesn't resemble Erdinger in the end.

 

[damnyankee]

I'll definitely keep you posted. I should have the ingredients on Wednesday afternoon, so I'll be brewing it Wednesday evening.

I've not used WP300 before but I've heard it really bubbles up. So instead of my 5 gallon carboy, I'm going to use my 6.5 gallon plastic bucket. Or should I purchase one of those 7.8 gallon buckets for wine???

 

[Malticulous]

FWIW my hefe was bottled yesterday (all 11 gallons) and tested wonderfully. Probably my best effort to date.

I used a 6.5 gallon bucket and a 6.5 gallon carboy. The bucket blewoff for two days the carboy didn't.

They say WLP300 and wyeast 3068 are the same but I like 3068 more. It has more clove. Both are bananas.

 

[damnyankee]

That's great to know. I'm going to use my bucket with Revvy's airlock/vinyl blowoff tube setup.

Congrats on your successful Hefe brew!

 

[damnyankee]

Update:

I brewed this Wednesday afternoon. For the final recipe:

6.0 lb German Wheat Malt
4.0 lb Belgian 2 row Pale Malt
0.5 oz Tettnang [4.5%] (90 min) 8.5 IBU
0.5 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.0%] (45 min) 6.5 IBU
0.25 oz Pearle [8.0%] (12 min) 3.0 IBU
1 Pkg White Labs #WLP300 yeast

In this combination, the hops came out to exactly 18 IBU per Erdinger.

OG before pitching the wort was 1.058 (Beersmith estimated 1.057).

This morning I got up and the airlock is percolating beautifully.

So far...so good! *fingers crossed*

I've read that Erdinger and a couple other hefeweizen brewers add lager yeast to the prime before bottling. Would I add a whole packet of lager yeast? I'm worried about bottle grenades going off...!!!

Thanks in advance!

DY

 

[damnyankee]

Bottling success!!! OG was 1.058 and FG was 1.017 with Actual ABV (according to BeerSmith) at 5.35. So far, so good.

As for the lager yeast to bottle with: I went up to my LHBS, told him I was attempting the clone and I needed a neutral lager yeast. He gave me Saflager S-23 and recommened to use very little so I wouldn't blow the caps off the bottles: ~1/8 of the packet.

During priming, I added 3/4 cup of corn sugar with about 1 tsp of S-23, bottled it, and now let's keep our fingers crossed! Hopefully, this will create the extra carbonation I'm looking for.

As this is my third brew ever, wish me luck!

DY

 

[therealrsr]

You'll be fine, still not sure on the bottling yeast idea, don't see it hurting and true to the original. Had a 6'er of Fraziskanner over the weekend, and a Weihenstephan at lunch last week. I can't recall if Erdinger has as much of the bubble gum as those, been a couple years. Too much for me, I like sessionable wheats.

My Sunshine Wheat Clone went into the kegerator last night to carb, after the cream ale blew air sucks, that was a good beer.

 

[rodneypierce]

I personally much prefer Franziskaner over any other wheat beer. But, that being said, I havnt had one that I would turn down. I have a Franz clone kit from Austinhomebrew.com that I will be brewing up in a month or so. I just brewed there Belgian Wheat beer this weekend, so interested to see how that turns out. Its been in the fermenter since saturday afternoon, and it smells WONDERFUL!!!

I will be checking in on this thread often to see how things turn out!!

 

[damnyankee]

I'll tell you what: I recently brewed Wayne's original Blue Moon clone - I'm drinking an ice cold one now and it knocks the socks off ANY ale or beer I've ever had. Kudos to Wayne!
I hope this Erdinger Weissbier clone comes out half this good.

DY

 

[damnyankee]

Day 7 post bottling:

I couldn't wait. I had to put one in the fridge and pop the top. Definitely a hefeweizen but it is VERY thick in texture but smooth - like chocolate milk. I know this is still green but I personally love it - wifey didn't care for the thickness but as she said, give it a few weeks.

Incidentally, I was reading in an old brew book from the 1850s about Weissbier...recipe called for 2/3 part Wheat malt and 1/3 part malted barley, hops, and water. I may try 2/3 wheat with the next version.

Stay tuned...

 

[damnyankee]

Post bottling day #10:

I popped a bottle open and poured it in my Erdinger glass. It is very muddy looking from the yeast but that "thickness" texture is gone. There are now LOTS of suds...VERY fizzy (carefully pouring, the foam was 1/3 of the volume in the glass and lots of bubbles racing up from the bottom of the glass).

Tho this is still green, the initial taste has that champagne-like fizz and the citrusy zing of Erdinger. However, it is still has a bitter aftertaste and the flavor is still developing.

I'll give it a couple more weeks of bottle conditioning and then I'll do a side by side comparison of the real McCoy. So far, so good!

DY

 

[damnyankee]

Ok, had to pop a top again. It's amazing how quickly the taste changes between last night and tonight. It has tons of fizz and now it's very grapefruity. I didn't tell her what beer it was when I gave her a sip, so she asked, "did you buy more Erdinger???! Oh wait, that's not Erdinger - it's a little bitter at the end..." That's a great sign!

Here's a few pics:

http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l516/damnyankee20/026.jpg

http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l516/damnyankee20/028.jpg

http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l516/damnyankee20/029.jpg

As you can see, it needs time to condition and clarify.

DY

 

[rodneypierce]

heaven in a bottle!! I havnt dranken a Hefe in about 2 weeks. I wont drink one for the next 3 either. Im waiting for my Bavarian Hefe to be ready before I have another drink of hefewiesen. SO, im using this to get me by for the time being. Man its been a long 2 weeks!!!

 

[damnyankee]

Thank you! This is my 3rd brew ever and I tried to assemble the recipe from various sources (with the help of RSR).

The initial fizz and grapefruity-ness resembles Erdinger...we have to wait and see after it conditions as to what adjustments I need to make. Adding the 1 tsp of lager yeast during bottling really gives it that additional sparkle and fizz.

Stay tuned...

 

[dstrom]

i have read above a few posts about lager yeasts in bottles, but official Erdinger website is telling something different:
http://www.erdinger.de/en/products/qualitaet/flaschengaerung.html


Bottle fermentation

A guarantee of quality and taste

Bottle fermentation is a specific top-fermenting process for maturing the beer and for enriching it with carbon dioxide. It is traditionally used in Bavaria and this is where it is most commonly found. Using this process, the wheat beer does not mature in the tank, but in the bottle or keg.

Erdinger Weissbräu is the only brewery to apply this elaborate process on such a large scale with all its yeast-containing wheat beers. This guarantees consistent and outstanding quality of flavor in all products.

 

[tessa]

So lets break it down one recepi. Does anybody had a spot on clone of the Erdinger?

I will go for wyeast 3638 and hersbrucker



Cheers

 

[tessa]

So lets break it down one recepi. Does anybody had a spot on clone of the Erdinger?

I will go for wyeast 3638 and hersbrucker



Cheers

Has the erdinger brewers given up these project?

I guess there are no successful erdinger clones then. Thats to bad

 

[user 140132]

Alright folks, I think it's high time this thread became active again. I've been searching for an Erdinger clone for MONTHS but to no avail. I plan to brew my clone in about one week and I'll post updates for those who are interested.

Having read the previous comments, I've put together a recipe of my own:

Malts:
4.6 lbs German 2-row Pilsner Malt (45%)
5.6 lbs German Wheat Malt (55%)

Hops:
0.5 oz Hallertau (boil 60 minutes)
0.5 oz Tettnang (boil 35 minutes)
0.25 oz Perle (boil 5 minutes)

Yeast:
Wyeast 3056 (primary/secondary)
Harvested Erdinger Yeast (bottle)
I currently have a yeast starter that I've made by harvesting the lager yeast present in the bottle.

I'm using a double decoction mash profile and estimating a total efficiency of 72%. My total pre-boil mash volume is set at 7 gallons (I always tend to boil off more than expected and I'm saving some wort for bottling) and my post-boil OG is estimated to be 1.051.

I'm not entirely sure of the order the hops are added (guess I just don't have nose/taste for it yet), but what I've got here works out to be about 17.6 IBUs.

My plan is to ferment for two weeks with Wyeast #3056 in the primary, and then transfer to a secondary for another two weeks. At this point, I plan to siphon all the beer back into my boil kettle to boil it for approx. 10 minutes to kill off all the remaining ale yeast.

At this point, I'll quickly chill it back down to around 55F, pitch the yet-to-be-determined amount of harvested Erdinger bottling lager yeast, along with 1.34 quarts of (OG 1.051) unfermented wort that I previously saved from the initial boil. I'll then give the whole thing a thorough mixing before bottling. The bottles will stay in a 55F environment for two weeks before spending the following few weeks in the fridge.

Now this is about the closest guess I'm able to offer. Any comments?

 

[BigPicture]

Hi All,

A buddy of mine swears this is the best beer he's ever had. I'm not familiar with German beers whatsoever. So, upon reading up on Erdinger and Hefeweizen beers, I have discovered there are several varieties of Hefeweizen.

Can someone please point me in the right direction to which Erdinger Hefeweizen which has hints of cloves & bananas? Is there a clone for this?

Thanks in advance,

DY

I had the privilege of trying this Erdinger Weissbrau Weibbier 30 years ago when I was touring Europe. When I asked for it again in Greece, they'd never heard of it and they just laughed at me. They make some killer food in Greece :rockin:, but they don't know anything about beer.

I asked for it again in the US. They told me it was a wheat beer, I HATE wheat beers. I am so turned off on wheat beers, I din't look for it again.

Then on Saturday we went to a German Beer Garden, "Der Biergarten" here in Sacramento. They had it advertised everywhere, I was taken back in time! I had to try it again!!!!!! They had it on tap.

http://www.erdinger.de/en/erdinger-weissbier-company/brewery.html

I was in love all over! Wow! I forgot!

And I HATE wheat beers! This is truly the Champagne of Wheat Beer.

Now I gotta try this clone recipe.

Did I say I HATE wheat beer?

 

[BigPicture]

Conclusions:

I did TJ's clone recipe for the grain & hops with Wyeast 3068. It's very clean & crisp. A very fresh Hef.

Not a lot going on. Not complex at all. It is billed as the Champagne of Wheat beers, can't have much else going on if your aiming for Champagne. The wheat malt comes through very nice. This is a wheat beer that tastes like a wheat beer. This needs the carbonation & the cooler temp, in the bucket it tastes like crap.


I did do it differently by keg & force carbonation. No more bottles for me. My 1 piece of advice is......................... time. I fermented in the primary for 2 weeks. Then secondary for 2 weeks. Then it needed 2 additional weeks carbing up & cooling down in the kegerator.

I tried it 1 week into the keg and it still tasted awful. I was starting to really doubt myself. 2 weeks & it was good. It's not bitter or fizzy. There is banana, fruit everywhere. Sampling this recipe & the commercial version side by side as it was fermenting was very unforgiving.

This clone beer tasted NOTHING like the real thing. Now that it has improved, I'm not so sure. I'll have to buy some more of the real stuff!

I'll brew this again! :rockin: I did let it ferment at 68* F.................. Mistake. Next time I'll try it at the 56* F mark. The yeast was good. But again I'm all about experimentation............. can you say 3056?

P.S. After brewing this myself & having the hands on experience, I now know what these guys are saying between the lines. Some of you guys are spot on, some of you are just hinting at the real story. Just an FYI............ guys........... If you want to say something................ SAY IT! Don't make us guess!!!!!!