Erdinger Hefeweizen clone...

[damnyankee]

Hi All,

A buddy of mine swears this is the best beer he's ever had. I'm not familiar with German beers whatsoever. So, upon reading up on Erdinger and Hefeweizen beers, I have discovered there are several varieties of Hefeweizen.

Can someone please point me in the right direction to which Erdinger Hefeweizen which has hints of cloves & bananas? Is there a clone for this?

Thanks in advance,

DY

 

[Malticulous]

It comes from the yeast, Wy3068 and WLP300 are excellent choices to get banana/clove. The Grain bill can be as simple as 50/50 pilsner/wheat or 100% wheat extract. Any noble hop to bitter to 12-14 IBUs.

I have plains to brew 11 gallons Hefeweizen, 11 gallons Dunkelweizen and a Weizenbock over the next month. Fedex is just droping of my Wy3068! Starter time.

Banana/clove is the signature of any German Weiss beir. I've only had Erdiger's Dunkel weiss. It's very good. Franziskaner Hefe and Dunkel weiss are my favorites. Aventinus is also very good but I can only drink one.

 

[jaba]

It comes from the yeast, Wy3068 and WLP300 are excellent choices to get banana/clove. The Grain bill can be as simple as 50/50 pilsner/wheat or 100% wheat extract. Any noble hop to bitter to 12-14 IBUs.

I have plains to brew 11 gallons Hefeweizen, 11 gallons Dunkelweizen and a Weizenbock over the next month. Fedex is just droping of my Wy3068! Starter time.

Banana/clove is the signature of any German Weiss beir. I've only had Erdiger's Dunkel weiss. It's very good. Franziskaner Hefe and Dunkel weiss are my favorites. Aventinus is also very good but I can only drink one.

Erdinger is very light on the banana clove. Its probably one of the cleanest tasting hefeweizens. I would not recommend using wlp300/wyeast 3068 for a good clone. I think Wyeast 3056 would be a better choice for an Erdinger clone. 3056 has a very subdued banana/clove phenol characteristic, which is exactly what erdinger has. As far as the grain bill goes. If you're doing all grain, 50/50 or 60/40 wheat malt and pils malt, and an ounce of hallertau is all you'll need. With extract you should be able to use wheat extract 100%.

 

[damnyankee]

Thank you for your opinions. So I'm guessing there's not a true clone of this beer?

 

[jaba]

Thank you for your opinions. So I'm guessing there's not a true clone of this beer?

Not that I have seen, but then again it isn't hard to come close to any hefe. Like i said, the classic recipe is the 50/50 wheat/pils ratio, or 60/40, or something very similar. Outside of that, its all in how you hop the beer and fermentation temperature. Shoot for an OG around 1.050, ~10 to 12 IBUs of something noble, Hallertau or Tettnang, and Wyeast 3056 + a cool fermentation temperature around 64 or 65. If you're doing all grain, a protein rest and a mash temp around 154 would be good, a decoction would be even better.

 

[damnyankee]

Not that I have seen, but then again it isn't hard to come close to any hefe. Like i said, the classic recipe is the 50/50 wheat/pils ratio, or 60/40, or something very similar. Outside of that, its all in how you hop the beer and fermentation temperature. Shoot for an OG around 1.050, ~10 to 12 IBUs of something noble, Hallertau or Tettnang, and Wyeast 3056 + a cool fermentation temperature around 64 or 65. If you're doing all grain, a protein rest and a mash temp around 154 would be good, a decoction would be even better.

Thank you for your expertise, Jaba!

 

[damnyankee]

OMG...I just bought a 12 pack of this ($18.99!) and tried it for the first time. It is no question this is one of the best brews I've EVER had. Very champagne like with an ultra clean finish.

I gotta make a clone. Edinger says they use Hallentau hops. Mittelfrueh???

 

[damnyankee]

Ok, for those interested in making the Erdinger Weissbier clone, here's what I've gathered (thank you, Michael Jackson):

1. Erdinger says it uses more than 50% wheat, but declines to be more specific. Michael Jackson guesses it’s 50-60 per cent.

2. Erdinger contracts with local farmers to grow some of its barley and all of its wheat, and provides them with seed.

3. All the barley is of two-row, summer varieties.

4. Two varieties of wheat are used. A double decoction mash is employed. Any guess as to what these two varieties of wheat would be and what ratio?

5. There are three hop additions, using Perle, Hallertau and Tetnanger, with the accent on aroma. Any guess to which hops is added when?

6. A top-fermenting yeast is used in primary fermentation. Any guess which yeast?

7. Note: from mashing to fermentation, Erdinger works to tolerances of a tenth of a degree of temperature.

8. The filtered beer is tank conditioned, but the greater part of output has a secondary fermentation in the bottle. For this purpose, it is primed with wort, and pre-yeasted with a bottom culture.

9. This beer then spends from two to four weeks of warm conditioning at temperatures of up to 59 deg F/15 deg C.

10. The beer is still bottle-fermented in the traditional way; it takes three to four weeks for Erdinger Weissbier 'with fine yeast' to mature. I assume this to be different from the primary fermenting yeast...any clue which yeast this could be? I can try to save a starter from a few bottles.

 

[therealrsr]

1. If you intend to mash you need enough 2 row to provide sufficient enzymes for conversion, I don't recommend trying to go over 50/50, if you do try a 6 row instead

2. Not unusual and unlikely you will replicate exactly

3. see 1

4. No idea, look at the local varieties and start there. Are you intending to start with raw wheat or flake, rather than a malted?

5. Your guess is as good as mine, Perle for aroma sounds logical, been a while since I had one.

6. Probably their own cultured strain, you have some very good rec's on this already.

7. You are a home brewer, granted some take it to this level, but most of us lack the equipment

8. Use a secondary, I don't suggest yeasting the bottles, rather prime w/ wort if you like and let the suspended yeast do the work. The fermentable wort will change the profile a bit in the bottle though. Not necessarily a bad thing.

9. Good because it has got to carb in the bottle.

10. If you can grow a bottle culture do it for the best clone possible.

 

[damnyankee]

Thanks rsr.

I'm going to keep digging and would like to make this thread a work in progress in creating a working clone recipe for Erdinger Weissbier.

 

[jaba]

1. If you intend to mash you need enough 2 row to provide sufficient enzymes for conversion, I don't recommend trying to go over 50/50, if you do try a 6 row instead

Wheat malt has plenty of diastic power. I've used 60%+ wheat before without any conversion problems. Just make sure its wheat malt. If its unmalted, then you may run into problems. Also use lots of rice hulls if you're using that much wheat.

 

[damnyankee]

Ok, here's all the information I've been able to gather:

OG: 1051
- Brauweizen Wheat Malt (two varieties, >50% of the total grain)
- Pale Malt (2 row Barley, summer varieties)
- Perle, Hallertau and Tetnanger, with the accent on aroma; IBU is 18
- A double decoction mash is employed.

A top-fermenting yeast is used in primary fermentation.

The filtered beer is tank conditioned and spends from 2-4 weeks conditioning at temperatures of up to 59 deg F/15 deg C.

Secondary fermentation occurs in the bottle for 3-4 weeks "with fine yeast" to mature which is primed with wort and pre-yeasted with a bottom culture.

Resulting bottle is 5.3% ABV.

Without one of the brewmasters giving up the recipe, this is as close as I'm going to get. So can some calculations for a 5 gallon recipe be had from all this info?

Thanks in advance,

DY

 

[mc_eric]

FWIW, malted wheat has plenty of enzymes, no need to use 6-row if you're using wheat malt (unmalted wheat has no enzymes). You'll probably want to use rice hulls though. (ahh, jaba beat me to it. But yeah, +1 to what he said)

As for the two varieties of wheat, my guess is that they are talking about either red and white wheat, or maybe they use a combination of malted and unmalted wheat. Just a guess.

 

[damnyankee]

Thanks! I'm going to look in that region to see what kind of summer wheat is grown...that may help. There's not anything on google regarding "Brauweizen wheat".

 

[Malticulous]

I'm brewing one something like that now but with malts available to me. The only two types of German wheat I've ever seen are regular and dark. Many homebrew stores don't bother with stocking any German wheat. A few have American and German Dark. I have CMC white wheat and Best Maltz dark wheat. I bet the two row is Pilsner. Continental Pills malts tend to be grouped together but the flavor differences can be more than subtle. I have a sack of Castle Pilsen. It's more flavorful than any other Pils malt I've used.

So my grain bill is 43% Belgian Pils, 41% Amrican white wheat malt, 14% Dark German wheat malt (Best 5L) and a touch of Best Maltz caramel pilsen. I'm just going to bitter to 14 IBU with Sterling (probably more bitter than Erdinger) and use wy3068. Doughing in at 113F, infusion to 145F, decoction to 155 and a decoction mash out.

This should be a very flavorful beer close to Franziskaner. It's not a clone--it's mine. I don't think you can get the exact same subtleties as a huge mass producer does anyway. The fermenters are quite different and these yeast strains can be effected by even small differences. A brewery the size of Erdinger probably owns it's own maltsters and buys grain from farmers. You can't get the same stuff.

 

[damnyankee]

Hi Conroe,

I was thinking right along those lines: 55% wheat malt and 45% 2 row pilsner. Erdinger uses two wheat malts but after 2 days of Googling, I can't find out what type of wheat is grown in that area.

I don't know how close this is but it's what I'm thinking:

55% German Wheat Malt
45% 2 row German pilsner

Next, I don't know how much or when to add the three hops: Perle, Hallertau and Tetnanger. Any guess?

DY

 

[Malticulous]

After reading over at BA no one seems to notice a real hop presence in Erdinger Weissbräu. They make a good number of different wheat beers though. I've not had it personally but I'm not buying the remarks here about the hops.

Next time I'm at a state liquor store I'll look for this. I've seen it there next to Weihenstephaner, Schneider and Franziskaner before but always past up on it. Erdinger is like the BMC of wheat beers.

 

[damnyankee]

Be prepared it's EXPENSIVE. I bought another 12 pack for wifey last night and it was $21.99.

However, it's very reminiscent of champagne.

 

[Malticulous]

It's just over $3 for a 1/2 liter. They only sell by the bottle here. Franziskaner is just over $2. The price makes my decision making easy.

 

[ganu]

Now I'm not a Erdinger fanatic, but I'll certainly see what this Erdinger grain bill is like. You guys are right; Erdinger is a bit light on the banana. Erdinger was actually my first and only hefe for many years, and when I tried something different I was a bit shocked. Major difference.

I've recently grown fond of Weinhenstephaner (I had to think for a moment while spelling THAT one), so a full tasting Erdinger with more banana may be... something.

Thanks guys.

 

[therealrsr]

Yankee, where did you get that hops bill?

From their site, "The hops come exclusively from the Hallertau region, about 50 kilometers from the brewery. " edit: I can not find any early references to Perle in the region and this is a traditional recipe.

And as far as looking to regional wheat varieties, "At the world's largest wheat beer brewery, tradition and progress go hand in hand: our beer is brewed according to traditional recipes, but using state-of-the-art technology."

 

[damnyankee]

Hi RSR,

The hops bill came from Michael Jackson; he toured Erdinger and talked to the Erdinger people. Unfortunately, they wouldn't share the entire Hefeweisen recipe with him (the two types of wheat malt, pale malt, or yeast(s) and what they did share, they wouldn't share ratios.

DY

 

[damnyankee]

I need some guidance on harvesting the yeast.

I've searched & googled and I can't find my answer.

Two days ago, I started saving the yeast from the bottom of my Erdinger Weissbier bottles. I made a sugar solution and poured that into a sterilized 1 qt canning jar. I placed a sterilized lid & ring, shook vigorously, loosened the ring/lid to allow CO2 to escape and now I'm starting to get a yeast cake forming on the bottom. Yeehaw!

Now to help make the yeast grow: At some point in a few days, do I pour off the excess liquid and add more boiled/cooled sugar water at some point to keep feeding the little critters?

Secondly when I get to the amount of yeast I want, can I put it in the refrigerator to make them dormant?

Finally, when I want to use the yeast, do I pour out the number of ounces I need and add it to the wort for bottling the put the rest in the refrigerator?

Thanks in advance for clarifying the process for me!

DY

 

[therealrsr]

I am also woking on a wheat recipe, very different, but it keeps me thinking about yours. I was reading about Bavaria's agricultural history and came upon spelt. An ancient grain form Persia very similar to wheat (a hexaploid) that became popular in europe, including southern Germany. Still grown in the region today. It is having a resurgence of sorts in the health food world because it is nuttier and sweeter than wheat. Tasting notes on Erdinger also commonly speak of the sweetness for a weiss. Just an idea as it was common in the region back when the recipe was created (?, 1886 founded-1935 current family bought - 1949 became Erdinger) and has some characteristics in common with the ale. Now if you buy into this finding some malted is your problem! For the second, I start with any German hard winter as the region favors winter varieties, back then it was just wheat seed.

For the yeast, not even a novice as I have been growing my first the last couple weeks so take with a grain of salt, but yes you need to grow it with new food. Yes, you can "cold crash" and bring back up to temp for use. If you want to expiriment with this over a number of batches or make it a regular you will want to look into slanting to maintain the stock. You can get a number of batches out of one cake, but not indefinately. How many billion cells are in how many ounces? No idea, which in part has kept me using smack packs.
Good thread on slanting: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/slanting-yeast-133103/
again, good luck!

 

[damnyankee]

Hmmm...very interesting (http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/afcm/spelt.html). I had no idea it is grown in my home state of Ohio.

By the way, Weyermann sells it to commercial brewers: http://www.weyermannmalt.com/fra/bmprodukte_neu.asp?idkat=196&umenue=yes&idmenue=37&sprache=2.

And I read Briess sells it (I'm looking for it now).

If I can find it in the States, maybe I should make this 5-10% of my wheat malt (total wheat malt of 55%) with the balance being 2 row.

Thanks for the heads up on the yeast. I figure if Erdinger uses two yeasts, at least I've isolated the bottling yeast and can use a traditional hefeweisser yeast in the green wort.

I'm really getting in to this recipe!!!

Thanks again, RSR!

DY

 

[damnyankee]

For those interested: poster Les posted this from another board from Down Under. It's close enough that I'm going to give this a whirl:

(6 gal batch)

4.4# Wheat Dry Extract (62.5%)
2.64# Light Dry Extract (37.5%)
0.42 oz Tettnang (90') 6.4 IBU
0.31 oz Pearle (90') 8.6 IBU
0.25 oz Tettnang (45') 3.4 IBU
0.25 oz Tettnang (15') 1.0 IBU
1 pkg Weihenstephan Wyeast #3068)

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.051 SG (1.044-1.052 SG)
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.010 SG (1.010-1.014 SG)
Estimated Color: 13.6 EBC (3.9-15.8 EBC)
Bitterness: 19.3 IBU (8.0-15.0 IBU)
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 5.3 % (4.3-5.6 %) Actual Alcohol by Volume: 5.3 %
Actual Calories: 475 cal/l

Start with ~2-1/2 gallons of water in the pot and bring to the boil. Remove from heat and add 2.2# of the DME (wheat or barley, shouldn't make a difference), and dissolve. Return to the heat to boil (watch for boilovers!) Add the remaining DME (off the heat) in the last 5 or 10 minutes of the boil.
The advantage of the DME limited quantity boil, is that you can cool in a laundry sink or bathtub of cold water.

Ferment with 30% headspace at or below 68 deg F; bottle as soon as fermentation is complete (don't let it sit around waiting for infection!).

This recipe will get 90% of the flavor of the all grain recipe.

(Thank you, Les).

 

[Malticulous]

From your info the yeast in the bottle is a lager strain, not the original wheat beer strain.

The filtered beer is tank conditioned, but the greater part of output has a secondary fermentation in the bottle. For this purpose, it is primed with wort, and pre-yeasted with a bottom culture.

 

[damnyankee]

From your info the yeast in the bottle is a lager strain, not the original wheat beer strain.

That is very interesting...I never picked up on that. Is it possible there could be two different yeasts used? I read Erdinger uses similar techniques to making champagne (I am clueless on how to make wine)...which makes sense because Weissbier is very reminiscent of champagne (in regard to the fruitiness and fizz).

 

[rpatton]

Interesting discussion, and it explains something I've always wondered about - the bottled Erdinger Hefe-Weizen is significantly different from the "same" beer drunk from a keg in Bavaria. Bottle yeast explains it. Thanks!

 

[therealrsr]

With all due respect, that feels like a step backwards from where you were. Color and IBU seem off, and Jackson's hop bill was better. A heck of a lot easier though. I am sure it will taste good, but not as close to a clone as before.