English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[kmarkstevens]

Chris White of White Labs emailed "me" to say they have shipped a vault package with an ETA for next week.

Suggestions for what I should brew with the following?

WLP017 whitbread II (mainly because Barclay Perkins has a ton of Whitbread recipes I want to try)
WLP026 premium bitter
WLP013 London Ale (given the description of estery with oak overtones)

 

[ba-brewer]

a simple smash with minimal late hops, then you know what the yeast(s) bring to the party.

 

[kmarkstevens]

ba-brewer, I'll get to a smashy split batch after culturing all three of these yeasties. I'm thinking my first try might be this Kidd - 1934 - AK. Probably use EKG instead of Bramling Cross though only because I am most familiar with EKG and have done just one BC. Kristen warns that BC can be "catty", which is the overwhelmingly distracting taste my palate gets out of Cascade and many of the American hops.

 

[z-bob]

The bitter that I brewed a month or so ago with S-33 yeast was obviously infected. I decided to just let the infection run its course and see what I got. (the only other infection I've ever had was a low-gravity beer several years ago with Windsor yeast, and I just dumped that.) It's been several weeks now, and the pellicle seems to be breaking up. So I opened the stopper and sniffed it; it doesn't smell like vomit, or ass, or anything else sour or nasty. It smells like beer.

I'm going to bottle it now. Wish me luck. I will be sure and bleach these bottles after use.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Best of luck. Bleach together with vinegar (to drop the PH) like crazy to make sure it's not the gift that keeps on giving. I played around with pichia apotheca for a while. It was like trying to get rid of herpes simplex 2. I tossed the Mr Beer 2 gallon vessels I use for split batches. Then had it show up a few weeks after bottling in a batch of what seemed to be a tasty ordinary bitter. I think I finally got it out of my 20L Speidel on round two disinfection after letting it sit submerged in a bleach/vinegar solution for two weeks.

 

[brewbama]

Best of luck. Bleach together with vinegar (to drop the PH) like crazy to make sure it's not the gift that keeps on giving. I played around with pichia apotheca for a while. It was like trying to get rid of herpes simplex 2. I tossed the Mr Beer 2 gallon vessels I use for split batches. Then had it show up a few weeks after bottling in a batch of what seemed to be a tasty ordinary bitter. I think I finally got it out of my 20L Speidel on round two disinfection after letting it sit submerged in a bleach/vinegar solution for two weeks.

Do you think Iodophor vs bleach/vinegar would have killed it?

 

[kmarkstevens]

Heck, I don't know. Basic Brewing Radio podcast on 29 March 2007 featured an interview with Charlie Talley of 5 Star Chemicals (manufacturer of bleach/PBW/Starsan), where Charlie spent the first 20 minutes or so educating the audience on the proper way to use bleach and vinegar as a safe disinfecting/cleaning solution. Then he talked about PBW and Starsan. Based on that podcast and giving a very cost effective solution versus his own products, won me over and I've only used bleach/vinegar or his products ever since.

I first soaked my speidel in PBW, then in Starsan, and had the recurring pichia infected brew. Then I spent two weeks soaking the Speidel in a bleach and vinegar solution in a bath. I believe I ex-communicated pichia (which wasn't horrible or anything but contributed a souring effect that wasn't superior), and can keep this Speidel. At least, the current batch doesn't taste like it has pichia, and for what it's worth not even my palate wouldn't miss a pichia flavor.

 

[z-bob]

Heck, I don't know. Basic Brewing Radio podcast on 29 March 2007 featured an interview with Charlie Talley of 5 Star Chemicals (manufacturer of bleach/PBW/Starsan), where Charlie spent the first 20 minutes or so educating the audience on the proper way to use bleach and vinegar as a safe disinfecting/cleaning solution. Then he talked about PBW and Starsan. Based on that podcast and giving a very cost effective solution versus his own products, won me over and I've only used bleach/vinegar or his products ever since.

I first soaked my speidel in PBW, then in Starsan, and had the recurring pichia infected brew. Then I spent two weeks soaking the Speidel in a bleach and vinegar solution in a bath. I believe I ex-communicated pichia (which wasn't horrible or anything but contributed a souring effect that wasn't superior), and can keep this Speidel. At least, the current batch doesn't taste like it has pichia, and for what it's worth not even my palate wouldn't miss a pichia flavor.

I've not heard the podcast, but I was just coming here to mention that the bleach has to be highly diluted before you add any acid, otherwise you get a nose full of chlorine gas. That stuff really burns your lungs.

 

[Miraculix]

The bitter that I brewed a month or so ago with S-33 yeast was obviously infected. I decided to just let the infection run its course and see what I got. (the only other infection I've ever had was a low-gravity beer several years ago with Windsor yeast, and I just dumped that.) It's been several weeks now, and the pellicle seems to be breaking up. So I opened the stopper and sniffed it; it doesn't smell like vomit, or ass, or anything else sour or nasty. It smells like beer.

I'm going to bottle it now. Wish me luck. I will be sure and bleach these bottles after use.

Be careful. Wild yeast can be very slow And could be still eating residual sugars, I would take gravity readings 3 weeks apart to confirm it's ready before I bottle.

 

[z-bob]

Be careful. Wild yeast can be very slow And could be still eating residual sugars, I would take gravity readings 3 weeks apart to confirm it's ready before I bottle.

I didn't even take a gravity reading. I did wait a full month (maybe a little longer) after I thought it was done before I bottled it. And I put it all in plastic bottles. These bottles will be used next for a saison (diastaticus), and after that they will be cider-only bottles for awhile.

I tasted it, and a lot of the bitterness is gone. There's still a little, and maybe the carbonation will bring it forward. I didn't notice any off-flavors. I'm happy that it wasn't a dumper.

 

[Miraculix]

I didn't even take a gravity reading. I did wait a full month (maybe a little longer) after I thought it was done before I bottled it. And I put it all in plastic bottles. These bottles will be used next for a saison (diastaticus), and after that they will be cider-only bottles for awhile.

I tasted it, and a lot of the bitterness is gone. There's still a little, and maybe the carbonation will bring it forward. I didn't notice any off-flavors. I'm happy that it wasn't a dumper.

It is good that you used plastic as it is not uncommon for wild fermented stuff to need 6 to 12 months to be done. Just monitor the pressure by pressing the bottles from time to time.

All my infected stuff went the opposite way, increased bitterness, interesting to see that his can go either way.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

ba-brewer, I'll get to a smashy split batch after culturing all three of these yeasties. I'm thinking my first try might be this Kidd - 1934 - AK. Probably use EKG instead of Bramling Cross though only because I am most familiar with EKG and have done just one BC. Kristen warns that BC can be "catty", which is the overwhelmingly distracting taste my palate gets out of Cascade and many of the American hops.

It's more blackcurrant - but I wouldn't worry about the 2018 BX as the heatwave made it very Goldings-y, the question is more whether you can find it Stateside as it was a small harvest.

 

[kmarkstevens]

@Northern_Brewer good to know on the BX. I have about 200 grams of BX pellets, so maybe will try them to be more true to style in the recipe. I dislike the catty haps (looking at you Cascade and relatives), I love these historic beers as they were made by real breweries that know what they were doing and generally pulled off something interesting. There are a wide range of 1030 beers to choose from that don't adhere to BCJP guidelines, and now I'm venturing up into 1040 territory, which is a BIG beer for me.

Looking forward to my crop of N Brewer, East Seattle Goldings and Tettnanger in another month or so and some fresh hop brews

 

[ba-brewer]

Anyone with experience with the BrewLabs Sheffield wards yeast. I brewed a bitters a while back and just tapped the keg and think I might be getting very light phenolic flavor. The beer is very malty in aroma so it might be masking the smell but I don't think I can smell anything phenolic.

 

[bierhaus15]

I have used that yeast a half dozen times or so over the past year and have not had any phenolic character. I find it occasionally produces some sulfur when underpitched or fermented cool, which quickly dissipates, but otherwise it has been a nice malty-dry strain.

 

[ba-brewer]

Thanks @bierhaus15, sounds like I may have polluted that beer somehow. The beer did not attenuate too dry only about 69% attenuation, nice clear beer. I do like the way it highlights the malty aroma.

Too many vault yeasts to work thru so I did not repitch the yeast, will have to give it another soon. Hopefully I did not pollute the slants I made too.

 

[ong]

I brewed an ordinary bitter (around 3%) with the White Labs Vault 026 Southwold yeast last month (I believe this is the Adnams house strain). It’s quite nice — some stone fruit esters, a bit of residual sweetness, and decent clarity. I overbuilt my starter as well as banking some in the freezer, so I’ll do more beers with this strain.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Adnams use a double strain so at best 026 is an offspring of half of it.

Ordinary bitter is typically 3.8% +/- 0.2, personally I think 4.2% best strength is the sweet spot.

 

[deere322]

I'm going to brew SUABP 1914 Courage Imperial Stout this coming weekend.

I decided to go with Imperial Yeast A10 Darkness and was wondering what experiences folks had with this yeast.

 

[ba-brewer]

I brewed an ordinary bitter (around 3%) with the White Labs Vault 026 Southwold yeast last month (I believe this is the Adnams house strain). It’s quite nice — some stone fruit esters, a bit of residual sweetness, and decent clarity. I overbuilt my starter as well as banking some in the freezer, so I’ll do more beers with this strain.

What sort of attenuation did you get? I got close to 80% attenuation, 78 and 79 on the two beers I brewed and a 152 mash temp. The yeast seemed fairly neutral in favoring hops and malt.

Adnams use a double strain so at best 026 is an offspring of half of it.

Ordinary bitter is typically 3.8% +/- 0.2, personally I think 4.2% best strength is the sweet spot.

Been thinking about trying a few multi strain pitches. Assuming it is really half of Adnam's yeast pitch do you have any suggestion for a second yeast to pair with it?

As this this one seems to attenuate pretty well guessing team it up with something with less attenuation and maybe a better flocculator.

Would you pitch at the same time or stagger?

 

[Hanglow]

I think Fergus Fitgerald the head brewer at Adnams tried culturing up that strain in the past and didn't think it was too close. But he said that it could be an isolate from their yeast in the 80s when it was more like 5 or 6 strains. That's what I recall from maybe a twitter convo he had. I'll try and find it

edit: found this it was about the wyeast version
https://twitter.com/Solebear/status/560553728512892928


https://twitter.com/Solebear/status/1006218973111865344
they continuously reculture one strain and add it to cropped yeast and also restart both strains from scratch

I know on Jims that a few people have used their primary yeast from minikegs and that if they repitch it it goes very attenuative very fast

and confirming that it used to have more strains
https://boakandbailey.com/2013/10/ancient-adnams-tally-ho/#comment-36602

 

[Miraculix]

Which was the British hop that was supposed to give you marmelade flavour?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

What sort of attenuation did you get? I got close to 80% attenuation, 78 and 79 on the two beers I brewed and a 152 mash temp. The yeast seemed fairly neutral in favoring hops and malt.



Been thinking about trying a few multi strain pitches. Assuming it is really half of Adnam's yeast pitch do you have any suggestion for a second yeast to pair with it?

As this this one seems to attenuate pretty well guessing team it up with something with less attenuation and maybe a better flocculator.

Would you pitch at the same time or stagger?

Obviously cultures have grown up being pitched together but I guess you could pitch the lessflavourful, more attenuating one later as it's job is mainly to finish up. If 025 and the Wyeast one are both from Adnams then they look like they represent the two halves of the culture. Or just get the most characterful yeast you can find, 041 is one of the better core ones, or 1469, something from Brewlab, bottle/cask dregs, even something like a bit of T58 or bread yeast as a percentage of the blend.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Which was the British hop that was supposed to give you marmelade flavour?

Probably thinking of first gold, but e.g. Challenger green hops can get very orangey in sunny years like 2018. Admiral gets it a bit, too.

 

[Miraculix]

Probably thinking of first gold, but e.g. Challenger green hops can get very orangey in sunny years like 2018. Admiral gets it a bit, too.

I somehow have brambling cross connected to this marmelade thing, but I couldn't find any further reference when googling it so I think I confused something.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Nah, BX is blackcurrant normally (but in 2018 the heatwav e killed the fruit and made her more Goldings-y like her mum).

 

[Miraculix]

Nah, BX is blackcurrant normally (but in 2018 the heatwav e killed the fruit and made her more Goldings-y like her mum).

OK, thanks for letting me know.

I will probably just go with Golding's, I really like them...... But I am also quite curious about other British varieties..... Maybe I just buy a bit of it from crossmyloof! That's probably it, smaller bags, more variety

 

[schmurf]

Yes I can confirm First Gold can give a nice marmalade flavour. A while ago I made a really nice ale with FG in combo with a dash of Godiva and EKG.

 

[TheMadKing]

Yes I can confirm First Gold can give a nice marmalade flavour. A while ago I made a really nice ale with FG in combo with a dash of Godiva and EKG.

Is there any other flavor descriptor that you guys could use to describe this "marmalade" flavor to help me understand it? I've never once tasted something in beer that I would associate with marmalade so I think I must taste it differently

 

[schmurf]

Is there any other flavor descriptor that you guys could use to describe this "marmalade" flavor to help me understand it? I've never once tasted something in beer that I would associate with marmalade so I think I must taste it differently

When I was a kid I used to spread some kind of orange marmalade on my toasted bread... that's what come to my mind when I have a sip of some "marmalade-y" beers. Don't know if that helps

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Per Wikepedia: Marmalade is a fruit preserve made from the juice and peel of citrus fruits boiled with sugar and water. The best known version is mainly made from bitter orange.

As a kid, I couldn't stand it. It was (and likely for me still is) awful tasting stuff.

 

[ba-brewer]

I think Fergus Fitgerald the head brewer at Adnams tried culturing up that strain in the past and didn't think it was too close. But he said that it could be an isolate from their yeast in the 80s when it was more like 5 or 6 strains. That's what I recall from maybe a twitter convo he had. I'll try and find it

edit: found this it was about the wyeast version
https://twitter.com/Solebear/status/560553728512892928


https://twitter.com/Solebear/status/1006218973111865344
they continuously reculture one strain and add it to cropped yeast and also restart both strains from scratch

I know on Jims that a few people have used their primary yeast from minikegs and that if they repitch it it goes very attenuative very fast

and confirming that it used to have more strains
https://boakandbailey.com/2013/10/ancient-adnams-tally-ho/#comment-36602

The link back the Adnams site from one of the twitter posts gave me a smile.

Obviously cultures have grown up being pitched together but I guess you could pitch the lessflavourful, more attenuating one later as it's job is mainly to finish up. If 025 and the Wyeast one are both from Adnams then they look like they represent the two halves of the culture. Or just get the most characterful yeast you can find, 041 is one of the better core ones, or 1469, something from Brewlab, bottle/cask dregs, even something like a bit of T58 or bread yeast as a percentage of the blend.

Mr malty has WY1335 being similar to wlp025, description seem close enough that might be the same half. The links from hanglow suggest at least one is a top cropper. WLP025 did not seem like one too me, but I do ferment in stainless so it is possible. The links do seem like the two strains are pitched together which makes thing easy. WLP022 is the next yeast for me to try, if it turns out similar to 1469 maybe I will try it co-pitched with wlp025. The starter for wlp022 did make a nice creamy krausen and dropped fairly clear when crashed.

 

[TheMadKing]

Per Wikepedia: Marmalade is a fruit preserve made from the juice and peel of citrus fruits boiled with sugar and water. The best known version is mainly made from bitter orange.

As a kid, I couldn't stand it. It was (and likely for me still is) awful tasting stuff.

Yep that's the problem, because that's the exact flavor I associate with marmalade, orange pith, bitter orange peel oil... That's not something I've ever tasted in beer. Maybe I just haven't tried enough... Yeah that's what I'll tell my wife when I stop by the package store on the way home... It's educational

 

[ba-brewer]

I once got a comment on a beer from a contest that said they tasted marmalade, but I could not pick it up. I believe it was a either a brown ale or a mild so I would guess it was not a hop derived flavor.

I googled marmalade a while back to see if it had a different meaning in Europe, kind like cookies and biscuits. Still not total sure on biscuit but I assume in reference to beer it should be a savor baked bread thing and not a dessert caramel/burn sugar thing.

 

[deere322]

When I was a kid I used to spread some kind of orange marmalade on my toasted bread... that's what come to my mind when I have a sip of some "marmalade-y" beers. Don't know if that helps

For me, I get marmalade from Sam Smith’s Winter Welcome.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Mr malty has WY1335 being similar to wlp025, description seem close enough that might be the same half. The links from hanglow suggest at least one is a top cropper. WLP025 did not seem like one too me, but I do ferment in stainless so it is possible. The links do seem like the two strains are pitched together which makes thing easy.

That's just mrmalty saying they both come from Adnams, without going into much microbiological detail. According to the official descriptions, 1335 is high flocc, medium attenuation, temp up to 75F, and is fairly clean. Wlp025 is described as low attenuation, temp up to 69F, medium flocc and giving complex flavours. You have to take with a pinch of salt given different test conditipns, but that sounds like a classic "performance" and " flavour" pairing to me.

I wouldn't read too much into topcropping, it's a very malleable trait that gets intensive selection depending on cropping regime so homebrew versions may be very different in that regard to the originals.

Most British breweries just think of "yeast" which gets thrown into fermenter regardless of whether it's a stable multistrain or single. Adams are somewhat unusual in actively managing 2 strains like that.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I don't recall having got marmalade from US beers - maybe Amarillo a bit, but Amarillo orange tends to be sweeter and "fresher". It's reasonably common in British beers either from yeast (Fullers yeast is famous for it, more obvious in cask and the stronger ones) or from hops like First Gold.

Yes we are talking about the same thing - a traditional British jam made with Seville (bitter) oranges. So there's a bitter, pithy, orange-ness, that's been "cooked" so there's a hint of caramel, and sweetness and tartness all in there together. It's delicious! Admittedly I mostly only eat my mum's , which is better than any commercial version by definition.

Yes biscuits are what you call cookies, but biscuitiness as a flavour describes something less sweet than the average US cookie, I'd say a Rich Tea was a typical biscuit flavour. It's hard as biscuits are so culture-specific.

 

[jonny24]

I'm always picturing arrowroot cookies when I think of "biscuits" .

 

[monkeymath]

Since we're discussing mostly ingredients, I'd like to swoop in and ask if other people were also experiencing - and hopefully overcoming - issues when bottling English ales?
I brewed two split batches to compare WY1318 London Ale III and WLP023 Burton Ale, first a bitter and then a mild. Both stayed in the fermentor for for about 3 weeks and attenuated around 80%.

After a week in the bottle I tasted a first bottle of the mild, and it was amazing. Everything I had hoped for. I kept all other bottles at room temperature.

Subsequently, all four batches lost their character quite quickly and became watery and way over-carbonated. I know it sounds like an infection, but I could not detect any off-flavours. I read a lot of similar reports from people using WLP002 or WY1968 (which I only used once and hardly got it to carbonate at all).

Any ideas?

(I recently brewed an American Pale Ale which, so far, does not exhibit any of these symptoms, so I'm leaning towards this not being an infection.)

 

[Hanglow]

English yeasts can be rather oxygen hungry, hence breweries traditionally rousing the beers or double dropping etc which adds more oxygen during the early/mid stages of fermentation. So if you don't use pure o2 before pitching then they can slow down and drop out, and you think they are done. You can rouse the beer about eight or so hours after pitching that can help and shouldn't hurt your beer as the yeast is active and will scavenge any added o2 . They can also be slow fermenting maltotriose. Another thing you could try is after a couple of days pitch a yeast like us05/wlp001 etc and that should finish your beer for sure but the english yeast will allready have provided its flavour/aroma etc.

That said 3 weeks and 80% attenuation is quite a lot (I wouldn't have a bitter in primary longer than a week) so I'd have thought your beer was done.