English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Peebee]

I am currently in England for a few days and have the following (maybe stupid) question:

Is it possible to use good quality cask ale to start a yeast culture?

...

PS: It‘s the Harvey‘s yeast I am after…

Humm, might be dodgy? @McMullan should have a better answer. Hasn't been around here for a couple of months, but he lurks about Jim's so you might catch him there (take a mirror or you might miss him - contrary to some beliefs, he does have a reflection).

Otherwise, you might try to avoid the uncertainty of coming back with a good sample and switch to the uncertainty of "is it Harvey's or isn't it?" and grab a Brewlabs "Sussex" yeast-slope. (Some think it is, some think it's no such thing). The Malt Miller (UK) sell it, but there's more than one; I think the Malt Miller do "Sussex 1"?

 

[hungupdown]

View attachment 867361

This ended up very tasty, actually got an OG of 1.065 and an FG of 1.013 so nearly 7%.
It was a Youngs Special Ale clone I previously brewed with MO and Verdant.
Much prefer this version as the fruity Verdant dominated last time; this is much more balanced.
It's more like an English IPA and I wouldn't hessitate to use 1469 for an IPA in thre future as long as a some sugar is added to help dry it out.
Dangerously quaffable

Picture is not the best as it has a lighter colour and is crystal clear.

View attachment 867360

The krausen looked good.
Did you ferment with bucket lid off? In TT video, they say their yeast (1469?) needs access to air. As its become accustomed to it, over hundreds of generations, in open top fermentors.
My previous Landlord clone used Nottingham, but have a batch started yesterday, using 1469. Have lid clipped down, until there's a krausen cover. But haven't decided between then having a loose lid, or no lid.

 

[DuncB]

I think I remember @McMullan saying that the ferment with the 1469 benefits from rousing it once or twice daily ?

Can anyone confirm my memory?

 

[Shenanigans]

The krausen looked good.
Did you ferment with bucket lid off? In TT video, they say their yeast (1469?) needs access to air. As its become accustomed to it, over hundreds of generations, in open top fermentors.
My previous Landlord clone used Nottingham, but have a batch started yesterday, using 1469. Have lid clipped down, until there's a krausen cover. But haven't decided between then having a loose lid, or no lid.

I fermented with a closed lid, just opened it for the picture.

 

[Shenanigans]

I think I remember @McMullan saying that the ferment with the 1469 benefits from rousing it once or twice daily ?

Can anyone confirm my memory?

I can't remember exactly which yeast he was talking about but something about yeasts coming from breweries which used a yorkshire square.
I got a bit worried at the time because it was my first time using 1469 but he or someone else who was involved in the discussion said 1469 would be fine without rousing, which has turned out to be the case both times I have brewed with it.

EDIT: it's on page 138 of this thread - McMullan and others saying 1469 is not a Yorkshire Square problem child

 

[Miraculix]

I can't remember exactly which yeast he was talking about but something about yeasts coming from breweries which used a yorkshire square.
I got a bit worried at the time because it was my first time using 1469 but he or someone else who was involved in the discussion said 1469 would be fine without rousing, which has turned out to be the case both times I have brewed with it.

EDIT: it's on page 138 of this thread - McMullan and others saying 1469 is not a Yorkshire Square problem child

How would you describe 1469 taste-wise?

 

[Halfakneecap]

How would you describe 1469 taste-wise?

Im not OP but 1469 is gorgeous. Stonefruit esters but not too crazy. The best top cropping yeast that ever was. Ive used it for months on end with top cropped yeast. Awesome

I've never thought about marrying a yeast strain, but if i did, 1469 would probably be the one

 

[Colindo]

I also love WY1469. When I visited Thornbridge brewery earlier this year they danced around the question of where their cask ale strain was from, but from the things they said I'm quite sure they get it from Timothy Taylor. They said the yeast gets tired quickly in the CCV and they cannot use more than 10 propagations before getting a new batch from the NCYC.

@Miraculix Taste-wise I tend to get some pear, similar to EKG. But with much more fruity complexity where EKG is earthy. When I used 1469 with EKG it turned out somewhat one-dimensional, but when combined with Savinjski Goldings it really shines.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I also love WY1469. When I visited Thornbridge brewery earlier this year they danced around the question of where their cask ale strain was from, but from the things they said I'm quite sure they get it from Timothy Taylor.

Possibly, but in the early days they used Holt's, arguably the most important yeast of modern British brewing. Per James Kemp, who brewed there and at Buxton before founding Cloudwater :

https://web.archive.org/web/2018041...co.uk/yeast-brewing-myths-ideal-house-strain/
I’ve never particularly tried to hide my distaste for the ubiquitous triumvirate of West Coast Yawn, SO5, WLP001 and 1056 and their latest recruit BRY97. Bland yeasts that leave beer empty and bereft of character they’re yeasts in the UK that any brewery trying to emulate US character must use creating a clone army of Stone wannabes.

The reason for the popularity of these yeasts is that they’re American, ergo they make American beer, not only that they make AMAZING American beer. Unfortunately this pernicious thinking has become the rule leaving other extremely good yeast strains unused. The problem with this approach is that it’s oversimplified, and inherently wrong, yes supposed clean yeasts will help hop character shine but this is not always the case and a lot of other yeast strains will do the same job and bring more to the beer.

Not every brewery in the US uses the same yeast and not every brewery in the UK that makes great American style beer uses them either. A great example from the UK is my experience at Thornbridge and Buxton, when I started at Thornbridge we used a yeast strain that came from Holt’s brewery in Manchester, not the sexiest brewery in the UK and certainly not a hop forward US style brewery but the yeast is fantastic and Thornbridge took the UK beer industry by storm with a range of expressive US style hop driven beers. I left Thornbridge and became the Head Brewer at Buxton, I quickly ditched the yeast Buxton were using and put in place the same strain brewing some excellent beers. This strain is also used by Brewdog for Punk IPA and Jackhammer and adds to the character in amazing ways.

 

[Colindo]

@Northern_Brewer Thanks alot for the info. Something tells me I should have discussed this with you directly before forming my own opinion.

I hadn't heard of Holt brewery before (visiting Manchester is still on my list) and at Thornbridge they stated a "family Yorkshire brewery" as their source of yeast. After I asked the production manager how they would deal with having only one of a twin strain like some Yorkshire breweries use, I got a perplexed expression as a reply and something along the lines of "no one uses two strains".
So, I'm quite sure it must be one of the few that use a single strain and TT is the first that comes to mind, also not having any phenolic properties. I propagated their yeast from a bottle of Lord Marples and the starter tasted exactly like 1469, hence my conclusion.

By the way, I love the quotes from Andy Parker in your text where he aspires to brew a bitter like Harvey's. Unfortunately the cask bitter he brought to the German Homebrew Convention in March was made with the Nottingham yeast. I was quite disappointed.

 

[Colindo]

By the way, I 100% agree with how he describes the "American" strain. Most people in Germany like it for their cleanliness, which is just another word for blandness in most cases. I find the Conan yeast much more interesting, haven't used either yet, however.

 

[Shenanigans]

How would you describe 1469 taste-wise?

I'm terrible at describing tastes but would agree with the descriptions from Halfakneecap and Colindo above.
Both beers were quite different so difficult to directly compare but the second generation did seem to be more expressive.

​

 

[Miraculix]

Ok thanks lads, 1469 will be the next one I'm going to brew with.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Ok thanks lads, 1469 will be the next one I'm going to brew with.

Keep some 500ml wide mouth jars handy, the thick tan top crop of yeast is pure gold. I would just scoop some out into the jar, and keep in the fridge. If i was ready to ferment in the next 2 weeks, just bing it to room temp, dump into the fermenter and add the next batch. Very healthy yeast.

 

[corncob]

I've pitched a half cup of month-old 1469 top cropped slurry and the fermentation result said it was twice as much as I needed.

Top cropping is magic.

 

[Miraculix]

Just to be in the safe side, this yeast does not taste like verdant IPA, right?

 

[Colindo]

Just to be in the safe side, this yeast does not taste like verdant IPA, right?

Absolutely not. Much more complex, less aggressively fruity.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Absolutely not. Much more complex, less aggressively fruity.

I agree 100%

 

[Cheshire Cat]

1469 is £14.75 per pack at The Malt Miller in the UK. I buy a Nottingham style yeast called Midland for my bitters. If I buy 10 packs the price is £16.00 in total. Midland makes a very good beer, is 1469 worth 9x what I pay. At liquid yeast prices and having to import and a short shelf life are they going the way of Betamax and the Dinosaurs?

 

[Miraculix]

Absolutely not. Much more complex, less aggressively fruity.

I agree 100%

That is exactly what I wanted to hear. Thanks.

 

[Miraculix]

1469 is £14.75 per pack at The Malt Miller in the UK. I buy a Nottingham style yeast called Midland for my bitters. If I buy 10 packs the price is £16.00 in total. Midland makes a very good beer, is 1469 worth 9x what I pay. At liquid yeast prices and having to import and a short shelf life are they going the way of Betamax and the Dinosaurs?

Honestly, probably not.

For me personally, brewing is a hobby and I'm not looking at prices of the lower cost articles that much (obviously, there's a certain limit I am willing to accept though).

I'm looking to enjoy the process of making the products and consuming the product. If I pay twenty quid more or not for a batch is not really a concern for me.

Otherwise I'd be brewing the hazy cheapskate all day long I suppose .


Speaking of which.... Replacing the 70% wheat flour with unmalted barley would also be very interesting!

 

[Colindo]

1469 is £14.75 per pack at The Malt Miller in the UK. I buy a Nottingham style yeast called Midland for my bitters. If I buy 10 packs the price is £16.00 in total. Midland makes a very good beer, is 1469 worth 9x what I pay. At liquid yeast prices and having to import and a short shelf life are they going the way of Betamax and the Dinosaurs?

Just use the liquid yeast three or four times in a row and the expense is justified. It just tastes sooo much better than dry yeast, especially Nottingham.

 

[Shenanigans]

1469 is £14.75 per pack at The Malt Miller in the UK. I buy a Nottingham style yeast called Midland for my bitters. If I buy 10 packs the price is £16.00 in total. Midland makes a very good beer, is 1469 worth 9x what I pay. At liquid yeast prices and having to import and a short shelf life are they going the way of Betamax and the Dinosaurs?

It all depends on your expectations and brew practices/frequency.
I agree that is a crazy price to pay for yeast if you are only going to use it for one batch. It has more than doubled in price in the last 5 years.
If you are perfectly happy with the beers produced from dry yeast, then there is probably no need to make the extra investment and work.
And I'm not dissing dry yeast at all as I use it regularly and am happy with the results.
However, if I do splash out on a liquid yeast, which has no equivalent available in dry, I plan it so I can use it several times. Mostly by overbuilding starters and saving some in the fridge and then making a new starter when needed a few weeks/months later.
I'm actually also starting to look into freezing yeast now as the effort seems to be more worthwhile as the liquid yeasts become more expensive.

If the yeast drying practices keep improving in the future and a wider variety that are comparable to liquid yeasts become available, then indeed the liquid yeasts might disappear from the HB market.
I know at least 2 big online shops that I buy from who used to have liquid yeasts but now only stock dry yeasts.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I am holding 27 different dry yeasts totally 40 packs. Re-using yeast isn’t practical as I make so many different styles. My beer inventory is 16 different beers which only 4 are bitter. So I’m forever using different yeast.

 

[Colindo]

I am holding 27 different dry yeasts totally 40 packs. Re-using yeast isn’t practical as I make so many different styles. My beer inventory is 16 different beers which only 4 are bitter. So I’m forever using different yeast.

The British brewers make all their different styles with the same house yeast. Might take some experience, but there is no need for a beer style to determine your yeast choice.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

The British brewers make all their different styles with the same house yeast. Might take some experience, but there is no need for a beer style to determine your yeast choice.

Why not the yeasts are so cheap and I use Nottingham for bitter, Wit for Wit, Belgian for Belgian, Saison for Saison, Cisco for US, etc.
PS why are there so so many liquid yeasts if that were true.

 

[Colindo]

Why not the yeasts are so cheap and I use Nottingham for bitter, Wit for Wit, Belgian for Belgian, Saison for Saison, Cisco for US, etc.
PS why are there so so many liquid yeasts if that were true.

Because as I said it before, the chance to use a liquid yeast is absolutely worth it. Even a simple replacement for Nottingham such as WLP007 can already give so much more to your beer...

 

[HM-2]

I can't say I've ever got noticably "more" out of a liquid yeast than its equivalent dry strain, except for Brett and Bugs. Never been worth the effort IME.

 

[Colindo]

I can't say I've ever got noticably "more" out of a liquid yeast than its equivalent dry strain, except for Brett and Bugs. Never been worth the effort IME.

The only dry yeasts with properly equivalent strains that I know of are Verdant and US-05, and from those I believe only Verdant is similar to its liquid yeasts. Which yeasts did you compare?

 

[Halfakneecap]

Exactly, especially top cropping yeast like 1469, you can re use it many times.

It’s personal choice really. I use mostly dry yeast now, but there are some liquid strains I buy occasionally. I do find some of them have much more character. Saison for me is either w yeast 3724, or 3726 only.

Just use the liquid yeast three or four times in a row and the expense is justified. It just tastes sooo much better than dry yeast, especially Nottingham.