English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Colindo]

I forgot. Ok, but it is relatively easy to keep it under 20 C with a water bath in a cooler room like a cellar or basement at the moment.

Yeah, I might have to look into that. Sounds like the best option for me.

By the way, the bad reputation of English beers comes from the lagers that were brewed in the 70s, not from Best Bitters or other Pub beers. In the book "Pulling a Fast One" by Roger Protz about the desastrous quality of beer, especially the new lagers, in the 70s, he quotes the German newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung, which states how horrible lagers in the UK are.

I do not think that the Germans have generally bad experiences with British cask ale. All the people I talk to tell me that they were surprised how good the British beers are. However I still use the phrase "British beer" and not "English beer" in public because "English beer" has such a bad connotation.

 

[Witherby]

@Witherby That is absolutely true for historic recipes. I'm talking about the pretty modern category of Best Bitter though, which I believe to have been introduced some time after WW II.

In an interview somewhere John Keeling said he reintroduced the practise of dry-hopping at Fuller's. That sounds as if it had mostly been obsolete by that time.

Here is one example from Ron: Tetley Bitter cask racking specifications from 1985. The dry hopping is small, but Ron says that he's "not surprised that it was dry hopped."

As far as I can tell, Timothy Taylor's Landlord is not dry hopped, but when you watch the brewing process video and the way they describe the fresh hops added to the hop back, you get something like a whirlpool addition. One way or another, I think you need a whirlpool or dry hop addition (or both). Not like a west coast IPA, but still noticeable.

 

[user 246304]

Here is one example from Ron: Tetley Bitter cask racking specifications from 1985. The dry hopping is small, but Ron says that he's "not surprised that it was dry hopped."

As far as I can tell, Timothy Taylor's Landlord is not dry hopped, but when you watch the brewing process video and the way they describe the fresh hops added to the hop back, you get something like a whirlpool addition. One way or another, I think you need a whirlpool or dry hop addition (or both). Not like a west coast IPA, but still noticeable.

If I come back to brewing, one of my dreams would be to acquire the 1.5 gallon hop-back from Stout, to do just this, the TT process. I haven't been able to compare, but it is said the hop-back quality differs from both hopstand/WP and dry hopping, and it would be interesting to do. Of course, that would require whole hops, and I've found so little whole hops in the States that I like to use in British ales.

 

[Colindo]

@Witherby Well, Landlord is a bit of a different style. More like a Special Bitter. Their Boltmaker is the Best Bitter, I'd say. But since BJCP garbles these two styles, I'd not be opposed to a whirlpool addition. Just needs to be proper and not overdone. As I said before, I might also do a dry-hop with something like Target at pitching, which gives a citrus note that mostly just feels fresh.

@Gadjobrinus That is an interesting tool. My understanding so far was that a hopback is the same as a flame-out additions with the added benefit that whole hops help filtering the wort. I would be surprised if there are any other differences. I sometimes simulate a hopback in a pot with a tap, where I tilt the pot so that the added whole hops precipitate around the tap and act as a filter bed. Then I can very gently open the tap, recirculate for a few minutes and get clear wort into my fermenter.

 

[Witherby]

@Witherby Well, Landlord is a bit of a different style. More like a Special Bitter. Their Boltmaker is the Best Bitter, I'd say. But since BJCP garbles these two styles, I'd not be opposed to a whirlpool addition. Just needs to be proper and not overdone. As I said before, I might also do a dry-hop with something like Target at pitching, which gives a citrus note that mostly just feels fresh..

Great point, but I’d be surprised if Boltmaker doesn’t get a hop back addition also.

 

[HM-2]

@Miraculix Sounds great! Keep us posted.

How would you guys approach this?

Target between 4.2% and 4.5% with FG of 1.010.

85% floor malted MO, 7% invert, 5% T50 crystal and 3% wheat.

Circa 75% attenuating British ale yeast.

30 IBU of UK Challenger at 30 minutes

50g of First Gold at 5m
50g of First Gold in a dry hop post fermentation.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Target between 4.2% and 4.5% with FG of 1.010.

85% floor malted MO, 7% invert, 5% T50 crystal and 3% wheat.

Circa 75% attenuating British ale yeast.

30 IBU of UK Challenger at 30 minutes

50g of First Gold at 5m
50g of First Gold in a dry hop post fermentation.

That hop schedule is crazy and I doubt any bitter has that many late additions. You need to move the Challenger 60 minutes, no dry hop and a 15m and whirlpool 25g at each of First Gold.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Great point, but I’d be surprised if Boltmaker doesn’t get a hop back addition also.

I have been drinking bitter for 50 years and the BJCP guidelines are complete ballocks. Look at what Timothy Taylor describe Landlord

Brewers' Notes​

Water
Pure Knowle Spring Water
Malt
Golden Promise
Whole Leaf Hops
WGV/Goldings, Fuggles, Savinjski Goldings
Yeast
Taylor's Taste Strain
Ingredients
Malt, Hops, Yeast, Sugar, Water
ALC VOL.
4.3%
Units Per Serving
2.4
Style
Pale Amber
Aroma
Citrus, Hoppy, Fruity
Flavour
Full, Sweet, Lingering Hop
Bitterness / IBU 45

Bitter is a broad church and virtually all British non dark beer could be called bitter that includes
Golden Ale
Amber Ale
Pale Ale
IPA
Bitter

 

[Colindo]

First of all thanks for the continuing support!

@HM-2 I only used First Gold for dry-hopping once and got quite an adstringent bitterness. How exactly do you dry-hop?

Thanks for the reminder about wheat, I might use some torrefied wheat that I have at hand. Don't want to end up with too little foam in a German competition.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Well, Landlord is a bit of a different style. More like a Special Bitter. Their Boltmaker is the Best Bitter, I'd say

Nah - Landlord is a classic Pale Ale. It's their flagship beer that if it was down south, they would call a best bitter. Before it was renamed Boltmaker used to be called Taylor's Best Bitter - but in the Yorkshire sense, where the best bitter is the weaker bitter in the range. Theakston's and Black Sheep are other examples, you get the same thing happening on the other side of the Pennines but less frequently.

It's just that BJCP is heavily influenced by the beers of the tourist areas in the Thames valley, which may differ from what happens elsewhere.

As for dry-hopping - it's more common than the use of Yorkshire squares for instance, and nobody would doubt the authenticity of using those. No it's not something that the really big breweries do much of, smaller brewers can do - and you (rarely) get it happening in pubs. But for me what matters is beer that tastes good. Dryhopping makes it taste better, so I do it, at up to 2g/l. Personally I'd stick to British varieties or Styrians at a pinch, particularly for a competition outside the UK, just to keep things in the envelope of what judges may be expecting, even if you'll see all sorts in beers on the bar in Britiain.

 

[Colindo]

@Northern_Brewer Styrian Golding for dry-hop sounds like a good idea. Or in the whirlpool. Definitely something to think about.

Regarding Best Bitter, I still have not seen something labelled as Best Bitter above 4.2% ABV anywhere in the South. So for me too Landlord fits better in the "Ale" category, which was for some time also called special Bitter. Think London Pride, Otter Ale, Spitfire, etc

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Regarding Best Bitter, I still have not seen something labelled as Best Bitter above 4.2% ABV anywhere in the South.

You certainly get them down south - eg Sambrook Junction - and if you looked at the Young's lineup without the names, at 3.7% and 4.5% on draught, that looks like a classic Ordinary/Best lineup, albeit the latter is called Special and is 6.4% in bottle. Which brings us to :

So for me too Landlord fits better in the "Ale" category, which was for some time also called special Bitter. Think London Pride, Otter Ale, Spitfire, etc

Remember that the "real" versions are the draught ones, which in the case of Pride and Spitfire are 4.1% and 4.2% ABV. The bottled versions are 4.7% and 4.5% respectively, but you shouldn't be influenced by that in their classification. It's especially ridiculous to imply that the Fuller's member of the special bitter category is anything other than ESB....

And Otter is 4.5%.

Trust me, everyone thinks of them as best bitters.

Partly what decides that is many pubs having an either unofficial or explicit limit on cask beer at 4.5%, as you don't really get the turnover on ABVs above that except in eg central London (hence Fuller's ESB at 5.5% being a regular on bars there but you rarely get beers that strength on cask anywhere else).

 

[Colindo]

@Northern_Brewer I'm fine with the lines between the styles being washed out as can be seen in the Young's case, even though their stronger beer is called Special. But two of your examples are a bit misplaced.

For Sambrook's you have Wandle, which they themselves call Best Bitter, while Junction is their Premium Bitter.

There is a podcast out there somewhere, where John Keeling says something along the line of "London pride was our Special Bitter, so we called the new beer Extra Special Bitter". So for me there is a category above Special Bitter / Ale that is Strong Bitter, with those beers that are 5%+ ABV. At least that is how I would distinguish between the styles.

 

[Miraculix]

I'm going to make a "British lager bitter". I was just thinking about that I missed the opportunity to buy one of the liquid strains I recently wanted to test with my last online order.... But I still wanted to brew a bitter. So I am left with the clean dry strains that I have, notti and s04... Meh... Good enough but somehow my excitement was not sparked.

So let's make it a feature! In recent history my most more-ish beer that I brewed was a warm fermented diamond lager beer.

I'm going to do exactly the same but with a classic bitter grain bill and hopping rate. 10% dark crystal, 10% Demerara sugar, something to boost head retention and MO as base. 30 ibus English hops with moderate late and dry hopping.

Going to be great I hope!

Just brewed that one.

Going to be just shy of 40 IBUs and pitched at 19 C. The wort tasted amazing, I am really digging the crisp 400 dark crystal. Great flavour and not sweet at all. Also not bitter.

Forgot to order British hops... Found out when I started the boil and wanted to calculate the hops. So I ended up with Calypso as 60 min bittering und Perle as 16 g 10 min addition (I am out of Perle now). I only brewed 10.5 litres in total. I want to focus on smaller batches, otherwise I end up with too much beer to drink.

Now I am pondering wether or not I should dry hop with 10g of Calypso. I probably do it for giggles. The description sounds British enough for me, although it is American.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

Just brewed that one.

Going to be just shy of 40 IBUs and pitched at 19 C. The wort tasted amazing, I am really digging the crisp 400 dark crystal. Great flavour and not sweet at all. Also not bitter.

Forgot to order British hops... Found out when I started the boil and wanted to calculate the hops. So I ended up with Calypso as 60 min bittering und Perle as 16 g 10 min addition (I am out of Perle now). I only brewed 10.5 litres in total. I want to focus on smaller batches, otherwise I end up with too much beer to drink.

Now I am pondering wether or not I should dry hop with 10g of Calypso. I probably do it for giggles. The description sounds British enough for me, although it is American.

My notes scream bittering only, and that late they don't come thru...

 

[Colindo]

@Miraculix Sounds very British to me as well: https://www.hopslist.com/hops/dual-purpose-hops/calypso/

I would dry-hop very early to avoid dissolving alpha-acids. Then you should be fine. The yeast will do the rest.

 

[Miraculix]

My notes scream bittering only, and that late they don't come thru...

Ok thanks. This means that this hop at least is not a citrus bomb. If it's more in the background, it's probably more in the direction of European hops which means it could work well as a dry hop in an English bitter. I'll give it a go.

This morning, the air lock was already going strong. I'll be waiting 4 days and then throw in the dry hops with a bit of sugar to get the oxygen used up.

The smell from the airlock eat actually pretty amazing. The dark crystal really seems to deliver. The beer is also quite dark. I have high hopes.

 

[Miraculix]

@Miraculix Sounds very British to me as well: https://www.hopslist.com/hops/dual-purpose-hops/calypso/

I would dry-hop very early to avoid dissolving alpha-acids. Then you should be fine. The yeast will do the rest.

I usually dry up for two days. That's my plan here as well.

 

[HM-2]

My notes scream bittering only, and that late they don't come thru...

Ok thanks. This means that this hop at least is not a citrus bomb. If it's more in the background, it's probably more in the direction of European hops which means it could work well as a dry hop in an English bitter. I'll give it a go.

I got quite a lot of melon from it, with a pretty resinous finish. Not a fan.

 

[Miraculix]

I got quite a lot of melon from it, with a pretty resinous finish. Not a fan.

Interesting. Hmmmm.... Melon is not what I want. Resin also not in this beer. Huge fan of resinous apas though. Maybe I'll just keep it for the next apa.

 

[tracer bullet]

I would dry-hop very early to avoid dissolving alpha-acids. Then you should be fine. The yeast will do the rest.

I don't follow. That's not a sly way to suggest you're wrong, I just don't follow. Do you mean for a short amount of time, or actually early, like 1 day into fermentation?

 

[Colindo]

I don't follow. That's not a sly way to suggest you're wrong, I just don't follow. Do you mean for a short amount of time, or actually early, like 1 day into fermentation?

Adding together with the yeast. Works quite well to make harsch hops smooth. I experimented with Target alot and it only started tasting nice when I learned that Fuller's adds Target "At Declaration", which is when the yeast is pitched.

The hops stay in the beer quite long, but adding early let's the yeast work on all those harsh contributions. I'm probably incorrect in assuming these are alpha-acids, on second thoughts. More like geraniol and stuff like that.

 

[Miraculix]

Adding together with the yeast. Works quite well to make harsch hops smooth. I experimented with Target alot and it only started tasting nice when I learned that Fuller's adds Target "At Declaration", which is when the yeast is pitched.

The hops stay in the beer quite long, but adding early let's the yeast work on all those harsh contributions. I'm probably incorrect in assuming these are alpha-acids, on second thoughts. More like geraniol and stuff like that.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

I've never had any harshness from dry hops though. But I also always add a bit of sugar to make the yeast restart fermentation for a short amount of time. Don't know if this makes a difference in terms of harshness. It works for avoiding oxidation.

 

[Colindo]

@Miraculix It definitely helps to have some fermentation going on.

 

[Miraculix]

Adding together with the yeast. Works quite well to make harsch hops smooth. I experimented with Target alot and it only started tasting nice when I learned that Fuller's adds Target "At Declaration", which is when the yeast is pitched.

The hops stay in the beer quite long, but adding early let's the yeast work on all those harsh contributions. I'm probably incorrect in assuming these are alpha-acids, on second thoughts. More like geraniol and stuff like that.

I think it might be a beta acid thing. Have you read Scott Janishs "the new IPA"? It's probably the most complete current hop knowledge collection that's available. Highly recommended to any brewer, regardless of IPA or not.

 

[Colindo]

@Miraculix Yes, I have. To me the most likely candidate is biotransformation of geraniol to linalool and when this does not happen, the geraniol taste harsh. It has a green-grassy taste like green paprika.

 

[Miraculix]

@Miraculix Yes, I have. To me the most likely candidate is biotransformation of geraniol to linalool and when this does not happen, the geraniol taste harsh. It has a green-grassy taste like green paprika.

Wasn't it only particular yeasts that can do this? I don't remember... been a while since I had that book open.

 

[Colindo]

Wasn't it only particular yeasts that can do this? I don't remember... been a while since I had that book open.

All yeasts do that, which is why it is one of the most overhyped phenomenon in brewing. But a few thiols are only done by special yeasts.

 

[cire]

Adding together with the yeast. Works quite well to make harsch hops smooth. I experimented with Target alot and it only started tasting nice when I learned that Fuller's adds Target "At Declaration", which is when the yeast is pitched.

The hops stay in the beer quite long, but adding early let's the yeast work on all those harsh contributions. I'm probably incorrect in assuming these are alpha-acids, on second thoughts. More like geraniol and stuff like that.

Are you sure that "At Declaration" is when yeast is pitched?

Dry Hopping in Britain is traditionally added to casks when declarations for Customs and Excise are recorded.

 

[monkeymath]

Not exactly on topic but as this seems to be where the anglophiles hang out:
I'll be in England for a weekend next month. What are some of the brews I should seek out to educate and, ideally, enjoy myself? It's going be the South (Oxford), so Fuller's seems to be a given. Also, no Timothy Taylor pubs, although a few others should pour Landlord at least.