English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Colindo]

@Miraculix Today my standard supermarket suddenly stocked all the sugar goodies we have been talking about. So I did some comparisons.

Grafschafter Heller Sirup vs. Lyle's Golden Syrup: The German product is much paler and has barely any flavour when directly compared. Lyle's has a flavour that seems to be 50% like maple syrup and 50% caramel. The Grafschafter just seemed sweet with an incredibly small caramel contribution. So it's really more a source of simple sugars than a substitute for invert No 1, in my opinion.

Sugar beet molasses: Grafschafter vs Bauck: The latter has a bit of a liquorice touch, which makes it closer to Black Treacle than the Grafschafter. However both are still far too mild compared to the original. Unfortunately they are also less fruity, otherwise I wouldn't have minded the milder character. But without the fruitiness it really lacks something.

 

[Brewskey]

Just got an email that British hops are in at Hop Alliance. Never used them before but I picked up some first gold and challenger...

Hop Alliance

 

[Shenanigans]

Just got back from Ireland and picked up some sugar products there.
Should be enough to keep me going until next year:

I'm going to (re)try out a few sugars I got in a Dutch supermarket too.
Although I read the syrup is not supposed to be that great for brewing Belgians with, it might work for an English style beer.
The dark basterd sugar I have only tried in a few strong dark roasty beers so can't really say what it contributed.
I might try it in something more simple at some stage.

 

[Witherby]

Just got an email that British hops are in at Hop Alliance. Never used them before but I picked up some first gold and challenger...

Hop Alliance

Thanks for the heads up. Got some EKG and Bramling Cross, which I never find. Wanted some Endeavour (which I've had before) but it was already sold out. I had been looking at Stocks Farm in the UK, as they have whole hops, but the shipping alone was $25 and the hops much more expensive, so this was a better option, especially since I am about to be completely out of English hops after I brew a dark mild this weekend.

 

[corncob]

Just got an email that British hops are in at Hop Alliance. Never used them before but I picked up some first gold and challenger...

Hop Alliance

Thanks for sounding the alarm. Saved me a bundle over the next year and change.

 

[Peebee]

@Miraculix Today my standard supermarket suddenly stocked all the sugar goodies we have been talking about. So I did some comparisons.

Grafschafter Heller Sirup vs. Lyle's Golden Syrup: The German product is much paler and has barely any flavour when directly compared. Lyle's has a flavour that seems to be 50% like maple syrup and 50% caramel. The Grafschafter just seemed sweet with an incredibly small caramel contribution. So it's really more a source of simple sugars than a substitute for invert No 1, in my opinion.

Sugar beet molasses: Grafschafter vs Bauck: The latter has a bit of a liquorice touch, which makes it closer to Black Treacle than the Grafschafter. However both are still far too mild compared to the original. Unfortunately they are also less fruity, otherwise I wouldn't have minded the milder character. But without the fruitiness it really lacks something.

It's rather distressing to learn how they make Lyle's Golden Syrup these days (good descriptions from Ragus, the nearest competitor for this product ... they share part of their histories). Nothing like the original process despite what they say on the tin.

And nothing like Invert Syrup No.1. White granulated sugar would be closer (comparing with the Ragus "blocks" of "Invert", though they bear little resemblance to how Brewer's Invert Syrup was originally made either). Ragus is the last remaining manufacturer of "Brewer's Invert Sugar" although it is an "emulation" of what it formerly was.

Golden Syrup is purposely caramelised (as was the original product, though it was a consequence of how it was made). Golden Syrup is "partially inverted", because they take fully inverted syrup and dilute it with sucrose syrup to get the "right" percentage. It is an "emulation" after all.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

One of the three beers I put on tap almost a week ago, a 3.4% mild.
Been very pleased with nuka tap stout spout nozzles, combined with natural carbonation in the keg and cellar temp in the fridge they give a decent faux handpull-with-a-sparkler effect.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

And as sidenote: now we've officially entered the never getting dark period of the year, I was staying up last night and went to bed right after midnight. Looked out the window right before that and saw there was this sort of late evening twilight outside but never actually got completely dark...

 

[Miraculix]

And as sidenote: now we've officially entered the never getting dark period of the year, I was staying up last night and went to bed right after midnight. Looked out the window right before that and saw there was this sort of late evening twilight outside but never actually got completely dark...

Well, at least your beer gets dark!

 

[Miraculix]

It's rather distressing to learn how they make Lyle's Golden Syrup these days (good descriptions from Ragus, the nearest competitor for this product ... they share part of their histories). Nothing like the original process despite what they say on the tin.

And nothing like Invert Syrup No.1. White granulated sugar would be closer (comparing with the Ragus "blocks" of "Invert", though they bear little resemblance to how Brewer's Invert Syrup was originally made either). Ragus is the last remaining manufacturer of "Brewer's Invert Sugar" although it is an "emulation" of what it formerly was.

Golden Syrup is purposely caramelised (as was the original product, though it was a consequence of how it was made). Golden Syrup is "partially inverted", because they take fully inverted syrup and dilute it with sucrose syrup to get the "right" percentage. It is an "emulation" after all.

What was the original process?

 

[Peebee]

What was the original process?

Sucrose crystalised out of the "mother liquor" during sugar refining. The "molasses" was drained from the crystallised solid, latterly by centrifuge (later into 19th C.). The process had to be repeated a few times to get anything like "white" sugar.

The process created a lot of "molasses", which would still contain a lot of sugars. The refiners got clever and squeezed more sugar out of the molasses ... it involved plenty of heat, which significantly caramelised the syrup. No doubt it caused additional inverting of sucrose in the original molasses ... and the result was Golden Syrup.

The "waste" was molasses again, but even darker and deprived of more sugar. I never really thought about it until recently ... each stage of refining produced less molasses, but it was finer and darker than from the preceding stage (had been subject to more heat by that stage).



All that processing made refined sugars far too expensive to use in beer. But the refining process could be broken into at its various stages. The hot syrup "inverted" to keep it as a syrup with the molasses at that stage included (it was not allowed to crystallise) ... the result was Brewer's Invert Syrup! (No.4 ... rough! ... to No.1 ... expensive!).

That's very summarised, but probably explains why I get so heated by the suggestion that "Invert Sugar" was created by "caramelising" refined sugar.

 

[Miraculix]

Sucrose crystalised out of the "mother liquor" during sugar refining. The "molasses" was drained from the crystallised solid, latterly by centrifuge (later into 19th C.). The process had to be repeated a few times to get anything like "white" sugar.

The process created a lot of "molasses", which would still contain a lot of sugars. The refiners got clever and squeezed more sugar out of the molasses ... it involved plenty of heat, which significantly caramelised the syrup. No doubt it caused additional inverting of sucrose in the original molasses ... and the result was Golden Syrup.

The "waste" was molasses again, but even darker and deprived of more sugar. I never really thought about it until recently ... each stage of refining produced less molasses, but it was finer and darker than from the preceding stage (had been subject to more heat by that stage).



All that processing made refined sugars far too expensive to use in beer. But the refining process could be broken into at its various stages. The hot syrup "inverted" to keep it as a syrup with the molasses at that stage included (it was not allowed to crystallise) ... the result was Brewer's Invert Syrup! (No.4 ... rough! ... to No.1 ... expensive!).

That's very summarised, but probably explains why I get so heated by the suggestion that "Invert Sugar" was created by "caramelising" refined sugar.

I see. In other words, pretty hard to replicate without access to raw sugar cane juice and the will to go through the whole old school refining process at home.

I wonder if bauck zuckerrübensirup is a quick and dirty hack for this. Just as a small addition to the invert sirup. This specific brand is very caramelly, much more than grafschafter goldsaft, for example. Time for some experiments, I guess.

 

[tracer bullet]

Off topic of English ales, but on topic of molasses, my kiddo and I were recently reading a book about a "molasses flood" in Boston just over 100 years ago. Pretty big deal, and actually killed people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Molasses_Flood

They were actually making ethanol from it, so I suppose it's vaguely beer related!

 

[Peebee]

The terms used are lovely! Sugar isn't dissolved ... it's "melted". The syrup being boiled down isn't syrup ... it's "magma". And the mass of crystalising sugar that forms in the "mother liquor" is the "massecuite".

Sugar cane couldn't be the raw material because it went off (mouldy) so quick. The cane was milled, the juice was extracted and t'was boiled down locally (sometimes in the field). The boiled down juice (first stage massecuite?) was the raw material. Indian "jaggery" might be similar, but it is sort of creamed together as it cooled, and probably these days loaded with refined sugar to make it cheaper (and rip the punters off with).

A dark molasses might be the best starting point for attempting an authentic Golden Syrup. But I've no idea what the original process was. And I imagine the tins of Lyle's Golden Syrup are a pretty good emulation.

 

[Peebee]

... They were actually making ethanol from it, so I suppose it's vaguely beer related!

Yeap ... early on the first runoff of molasses never made out of the West Indies ... It was too valuable for making rum.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

The latest bitter, GP, 10% invert 2, 4% each Simpson amber and medium crystal and 5% wheat malt. 1.040-1.008 40 IBU 4.3% with priming sugar included.
Got a slight haze still from the moderate dry hop(0.5g/L) of Styrian Bobek.

 

[user 246304]

The latest bitter, GP, 10% invert 2, 4% each Simpson amber and medium crystal and 5% wheat malt. 1.040-1.008 40 IBU 4.3% with priming sugar included.
Got a slight haze still from the moderate dry hop(0.5g/L) of Styrian Bobek.
View attachment 847819

Ohhhhhhh yes. I'd slake my thirst on many of those, congratulations Erik! Setting my engine up with my ordinary finishing up it's 10C "waiting period" of 3 days, before going into the corny for conditioning then onto the engine. I've got some Crisp amber and will be playing with a vintage IPA and other things after, so this is great to see.

 

[Agent]

Our brewing club has an annual group experiment where everybody brews the same base recipe but with one specific aspect that everyone has to do differently.

This year the different aspect is sugar. The assumption was a saison as the base recipe, but I'd like to propose something English, as most folks don't realize the amount of sugar traditionally used.

That said, does anyone have suggestions on a recipe or style that will let us easily notice and compare different sugars? My gut feeling was a pale mild or minimally hopped bitter, but I'm not sure what other options exist.

 

[HM-2]

A best bitter will stand you in good stead, though if you really wanted to push "how much does sugar change beer" I'd personally look at a Belgian golden strong grist with 10% of clear, golden and dark candi syrup in three separate fermenters.

 

[JohnA]

I just posted this topic to “General Homebrew Discussion”, but this seems like the right group of folks to direct it to. I’ve begun reading this thread but I’m afraid I’ve only gotten to 2015 or so (!). Lots of great information! If you have any suggestions, maybe write them over there to keep them all together and not sidetrack this thread too much. Thanks!

Other post:
“Hi! My wife and I have been in the UK for a couple weeks and we’ll be here for a few more while we hike Hadrian’s Wall West to East and then the West Highland Way south to north. What beers should we try and where should we try them to gather intelligence and inspiration for brewing back home?”

 

[user 246304]

Our brewing club has an annual group experiment where everybody brews the same base recipe but with one specific aspect that everyone has to do differently.

This year the different aspect is sugar. The assumption was a saison as the base recipe, but I'd like to propose something English, as most folks don't realize the amount of sugar traditionally used.

That said, does anyone have suggestions on a recipe or style that will let us easily notice and compare different sugars? My gut feeling was a pale mild or minimally hopped bitter, but I'm not sure what other options exist.

I think your idea of a pale mild is an excellent one.

 

[Miraculix]

I just posted this topic to “General Homebrew Discussion”, but this seems like the right group of folks to direct it to. I’ve begun reading this thread but I’m afraid I’ve only gotten to 2015 or so (!). Lots of great information! If you have any suggestions, maybe write them over there to keep them all together and not sidetrack this thread too much. Thanks!

Other post:
“Hi! My wife and I have been in the UK for a couple weeks and we’ll be here for a few more while we hike Hadrian’s Wall West to East and then the West Highland Way south to north. What beers should we try and where should we try them to gather intelligence and inspiration for brewing back home?”

Ask @Northern_Brewer !

 

[user 246304]

Ask @Northern_Brewer !

+1.

 

[HM-2]

Some suggestions from me:

Twice Brewed in Hexham- they have a taproom and B&B.

Hadrian Border in Newcastle.

Muckle looks decent but I've not tried their beers. Think they're Haltwhistle way.

Holy Goat are in Dundee, some of the best sours and mixed fermentation beers in the world IMO.

There's about half a dozen decent breweries Glasgow way.

Otherworld are out of the way in Dalkeith but plenty of bottle shops in Scotland stock them, they brew some excellent beers.

Also try Glengoyne distillery.

 

[cire]

After passing through Heddon on the Wall, the route goes south to walk along the River Tyne and just before the village of Newburn is The Keelman. Rooms can be booked there, but it is also the home of the Big Lamp Brewery. Their beers are wonderful, and of course are fresh and in perfect condition.

 

[JohnA]

We’ll be through Newburn tomorrow, but it might be pretty early. I’ll try to drag my feet a little.

Thanks!

 

[cire]

And the Keelman is set back from the river as you reach the outskirts of Newburn. At least from that point there is no more serious accent, so a few pints shouldn't slow you down greatly. Enjoy.

 

[bike2brew]

I working on a brown ale recipe. The flavor is where I want it but head and persistence still needs a tweak. I used midnight wheat for color and protein. Does this have the same contribution as white wheat? Perhaps add the white and match the midnight?

 

[Miraculix]

I working on a brown ale recipe. The flavor is where I want it but head and persistence still needs a tweak. I used midnight wheat for color and protein. Does this have the same contribution as white wheat? Perhaps add the white and match the midnight?

Not much protein left in the midnight wheat...

 

[bike2brew]

Ok that would explain why my predicted results were lacking. Where does one find that information?