English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Erik the Anglophile]

Aren't Celeia to be considered "close enough" for a homebrew version though?

 

[Colindo]

There used to be a mixture called Styrian Golding that was Celeia + Savinsjki. But only the latter is the Fuggle clone, which is why the latter is used by British breweries.

I have to admit I never tried Celeia myself.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I use it a bit, nice flowery hop with a hint of lemon/lime.
I was under the impression though that all the Slovenian hops gathered under the "styrian goldings" label are descendants of that Slovenian Fuggle clone though, and have by selected breeding and crossing with native strains become the Bobek, Celeia and Savinskij varieties.

I think I used some Bobek in my AK for dry hops instead of Kent Goldings, but Bobek and Celeia are fairly similair imo, maybe Bobek are a little bit more Northdown-y in the woody/piney flavour it can present.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

@Miraculix
I've written a recipe to use for trying out my Imperial malt, wich has arrived at the parcel office in my local town.
Initially I was gonna brew a bitter with it, but decided to do a more malt forward ale with a 50/50 GP/Imperial mix to really let it show what it got, from what I get by descriptions of it the beer will probably come out something akin to a contemporary Scottish 80 bob ale.
If it comes out too pale for my liking after sparging I'll just toss in a tablespoon of caramel...

85% efficiency ~21.5L post boil
Imperial Malt 1.42 kg 43.5%
Golden Promise 1.42kg 43.5%
Invert 2 260g 8%
Wheat malt 160g 5%

mash 68c/60 min
boil 90 min
Challenger 24g 60 min
Bobek 10g 15 min
Fuggle 5g 15 min
Fuggle 10g 15 min hopstand
Bobek 5g 15 min hopstand

OG 1.042
FG dunno 1.010-1.012 ish
IBU 25
ABV around 4%

Fermented with my usual AEB AY3/Brewly English mix, will ferment this at the initial 18c and not let it freerise until near comletion though to get it to ferment a little cleaner.

 

[Colindo]

I think I used some Bobek in my AK for dry hops instead of Kent Goldings, but Bobek and Celeia are fairly similair imo, maybe Bobek are a little bit more Northdown-y in the woody/piney flavour it can present.

Abbeydale's Daily Bread, which I thoroughly enjoyed in summer 2022, uses Bobek. Was very fitting for a slightly modern Bitter https://www.abbeydalebrewery.co.uk/our-beers/heritage/

But it's the Savinjski that is a clone of Fuggles. The difference in flavour comes only from the difference in climate and soil. The others are probably descendants.

 

[Miraculix]

@Miraculix
I've written a recipe to use for trying out my Imperial malt, wich has arrived at the parcel office in my local town.
Initially I was gonna brew a bitter with it, but decided to do a more malt forward ale with a 50/50 GP/Imperial mix to really let it show what it got, from what I get by descriptions of it the beer will probably come out something akin to a contemporary Scottish 80 bob ale.
If it comes out too pale for my liking after sparging I'll just toss in a tablespoon of caramel...

85% efficiency ~21.5L post boil
Imperial Malt 1.42 kg 43.5%
Golden Promise 1.42kg 43.5%
Invert 2 260g 8%
Wheat malt 160g 5%

mash 68c/60 min
boil 90 min
Challenger 24g 60 min
Bobek 10g 15 min
Fuggle 5g 15 min
Fuggle 10g 15 min hopstand
Bobek 5g 15 min hopstand

OG 1.042
FG dunno 1.010-1.012 ish
IBU 25
ABV around 4%

Fermented with my usual AEB AY3/Brewly English mix, will ferment this at the initial 18c and not let it freerise until near comletion though to get it to ferment a little cleaner.

Sounds very good!

I would simplify the hop schedule. Just one hop and only bittering addition plus one 15 minutes addition. You can even leave out the 15 minutes. I also would up the ibus to 30, but this is really just personal preference.

This type of beer shines through its simplicity imo. Because the imperial brings loads of complex flavour on its own.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Yeah I might do only Fuggle for late hops instead, the lemon/lime from Bobek might just fuddle it up.

 

[Miraculix]

Yeah I might do only Fuggle for late hops instead, the lemon/lime from Bobek might just fuddle it up.

I'd skip late hops altogether tbh, if I'd be really after looking into the imperial malt. That would showcase it perfectly.

 

[user 246304]

You can likely get a fairly similiar result by doing a hop stand for 10-15 mins while cooling the wort. Pellet hops are not quite the same as cones but I doubt it is a make or break diffrence.

I seem to recall anecdotal info somewhere here and there about the differences between hopstands and hopback usage. It's behind a paywall unfortunately, but this article appears to discuss it. Hopback v. Knockout hops. My suspicion is that so long as you rapidly cool through a plate heat exchanger or similar post-hopback, you'll preserve more of the oils and aromatics with the hopback than you do with a hop stand. But I agree, the hopstand (particularly 175 F or less) is the best approximation.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

There used to be a mixture called Styrian Golding that was Celeia + Savinsjki. But only the latter is the Fuggle clone, which is why the latter is used by British breweries.

Celeia is a triploid daughter of Savinjski and a son of open-pollinated Aurora

 

[Witherby]

They're using Savinjski Golding though, as they state in their other videos.

Hence the “inspired” part

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I'd skip late hops altogether tbh, if I'd be really after looking into the imperial malt. That would showcase it perfectly.

Yeah but I find beers with no late hops at all so one dimensional and boring. Even just a small late boil addition that's barely detectable brings something to give it better "drinkability" imo.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Picked up my brewing supplies aswell...

 

[Witherby]

Here's a nice overview of the history of various Slovenian hops:
https://www.beeradvocate.com/articl...ng-nobility-hops-from-the-styrian-hinterland/

I like whole hops for late hopping and dry hopping whenever possible, both for English and German styles. Harder to hide poor quality hops, unlike the pellets. They are sadly getting much more difficult to find. If I can get good whole hops, I'll use them. Better good "incorrect" hops than inferior "correct" hops.

(And yes, late and dry hopping for German styles too, which was traditional but mostly not talked about: https://hopqueries.com/archives/hopfenstopfen-when-germans-dry-hopped/)

 

[Derp]

Timothy Taylor Landord. I brewed up a few batches and after a few tweaks it was spot on.

Wish I could find it in SoCal these days, haven’t seen it in a number of years.

I think it was imported by Shelton Brothers, and they went belly-up a few years ago.

I was in Edinburgh for a few days last week, and the pub next to my hotel had Landlord on cask. It was superb, and I probably had 20 pints of the stuff at various pubs. I have brewed a few different recipes over the years, and I'd be interested in seeing yours if you don't mind sharing.

 

[tracer bullet]

The only thing English about this one is the Maris Otter. If you love it, you have obviously hit the exact right spot with it, but I would not call this one an English ale.

Definitely agreed. Do appreciate the recipe and comparison though.

Which makes me want to ask something I've been pondering over the last few days, of anyone: What dark malts and what amounts of those malts do folks here like in their Brown Ales? My last (5 gallon recipe) used:

.375 lbs Brown malt (Thomas Fawcett 55-ish L)
.250 lbs Chocolate (Briess 350L)
.125 Pale Chocolate (Thomas Fawcett 180 L)

I had other malts (including Maris Otter) but don't want to cloud things with the entire recipe. I thought the above actually worked out well, but have continually been interested to know what sort of malts and ratios others here use. Other than Samuel Smith's (which is incredible), it's fairly hard to find English browns to try.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I did a brown ale awhile back with 10% amber and 2%chocolate, was good but next time I brew it I'm gonna go with 6/4% amber/brown and no dark roast. Caramel colourant to get it darker most likely.

 

[user 246304]

Picked up my brewing supplies aswell...
View attachment 846213

Nice. Can't wait to hear more. I've got quite a bit of invert nos. 1-4, but to be honest, these were done by the Jeff Alworth instructions (time and temp, using raw cane sugar, plus acid), v. the method as I've since seen described, various blends of muscovado or other sugars, cane, and acidification with pH assessment using a meter, and restoration to neutral (as I understand it, basically the Ragus method). I'd love to make more with the latter method.

 

[balrog]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnd we're back to sugar!

No offense intended, mild attempt at humor, I'm a simple boil with thermometer invert maker w a bit of acid, no baking soda even, hence an invert troglodyte. Frankly, I like to use Lyle's. Carry on.

 

[user 246304]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnd we're back to sugar!

No offense intended, mild attempt at humor, I'm a simple boil with thermometer invert maker w a bit of acid, no baking soda even, hence an invert troglodyte. Frankly, I like to use Lyle's. Carry on.

I have just done it in my oven, with an oven thermometer. Like it because I can forget about it. However, I will say, going with the suggested times, my "2" is apparently closer to a Ragus 3 (by color), and so forth. They taste phenomenal, even the "No. 4," so no issue there (I typically use some ratio of my 2 and 3 for most bitters), but it would be nice to make up by blending with the muscovado.

The "1" - 30 minutes at 245-250F.

The "No. 2," at 245-250 roughly 100 minutes.

The "No. 4."

The nos. 1 & 2 are too dark, I suspect. Still, love their use.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I'll likely do some experiment with the Imperial malt aswell, depending on the taste test of the try-out beer I'll brew with it.
I've got a recipe written down for the 1900 Whitbread Single Stout from Ron's that been posted here, and been thinking of subbing the amber malt for Imperial, but gently toasting it for 15-20 min at 140c in the oven.

From what I can gather amber malt back then up until ww1 was although drum roasted still diastatic, and while probably a bit toasty in flavour, nowhere near as potent and "pungent" as the modern resurrected variety. I tasted some grains and they seem promising for some experiments in that direction.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

For brown malt I think, at least for recipes inspired by the 1890's and forward, you can get away with modern brown malt, as long as you choose one that's not too dark...

 

[tracer bullet]

I did a brown ale awhile back with 10% amber and 2%chocolate, was good but next time I brew it I'm gonna go with 6/4% amber/brown and no dark roast. Caramel colourant to get it darker most likely.

I have seen the TF amber as well, in the 40L ish range. Their site doesn't really talk about the flavor. I'd ask if you like it, but of course you do if you use it. I might have to get a sample next time I get ingredients.

I tend to think in terms of pounds, but my ratios are approx:
3% Brown malt (Thomas Fawcett 55-ish L)
2% Chocolate (Briess 350L)
1% Pale Chocolate (Thomas Fawcett 180 L)

Fairly light, now that I look at it. Not sure if it's too light, there's never much discussion about Brown Ales. I tend to keep the chocolate low so it doesn't become a watered down porter, I try to give it its own flavor.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

After my latest brown, wich was decent, I decided to try it without any dark roast at all.
If you want something like a Sam Smith nut brown I think a mix of amber and brown for toasty/nutty flavours and caramel for colour correction is the way to go. Seriously doubt any brown ale by more traditional English breweries actually contain any dark roasted malts except in small quantities like at most 2%, and only one type.
I'd add some(5-8%, depending on taste) crystal in your grist aswell.

 

[tracer bullet]

I do have some caramel 40 and 60 in it, as well as Victory (sort of like biscuit). I've been trying golden naked oats at times as well. I just didn't want to cloud the subject of the brown / chocolate malts. I appreciate the discussion!

I hadn't considered amber before. Hmm. I'd always had it in my brain that would give me a totally different beer, but perhaps not. I've got some Sam Smith's nut brown in my frig, when I crack it open I'll have to really think about what I am tasting.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Yeah, I'd really try to clean up and simplify that grist. The main defining feature of UK ale imo is their simplicity.

 

[Miraculix]

Yeah, I'd really try to clean up and simplify that grist. The main defining feature of UK ale imo is their simplicity.

This!!!

 

[HM-2]

I do have some caramel 40 and 60 in it, as well as Victory (sort of like biscuit). I've been trying golden naked oats at times as well. I just didn't want to cloud the subject of the brown / chocolate malts. I appreciate the discussion!

Biggest, and recurring, issue that I have with GN Oats is that no beer I put them in ever drops clear. Pretty much just preserve of NEIPAs and stouts for me these days.

 

[user 246304]

Biggest, and recurring, issue that I have with GN Oats is that no beer I put them in ever drops clear. Pretty much just preserve of NEIPAs and stouts for me these days.

Interesting. Playing with Harviestoun's Bitter & Twisted, inspired from a British brewer from another forum. They indicate pinhead/steel-cut/Irish Oats, but in at least one recipe, I've seen the use of GN Oats.

 

[HM-2]

Got an English IPA I kegged probably 3 weeks ago. Protafloc in the boil and Beer Brite (isinglass) towards end of fermentation. Looks like a very dark NEIPA. Only difference to my typical grist was GN Oats. Usually my English IPAs drop clear in a week to 10 days often with even less fining.

The 7.2% NEIPA with 15% unmalted grains and a 16g/L dry hop I just kegged is clearer.