English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Miraculix]

They taste very different. Especially if you use S-04 in dry form, in which it is quite neutral. I used 1099 in a Doom Bar clone recently (they reportedly ferment at 25°C, so perfekt for a summer brew) and it gives a full fruity flavour with complex notes. S-04, if used in liquid form as yeast slurry, is more on the orange side like Fuller's.

Brilliant, thanks for sharing your experience. Then I shall infuse my upcoming 1099 slurry with some glycerine and freeze it for future mixes with s04.

No fusels at 25c?!

002 would give you the hangover of death (talking from personal experience...).

 

[Colindo]

No fusels at 25c?!

Nope, none. And after having suffered trying to brew with WY1768 at 22°C and WY1335 at 24°C, I am now confident in saying that I notice them. The summer was tough this year for brewing

 

[tracer bullet]

OK! I just tapped my 4th or so version of a recipe, loosely based but not trying to duplicate Fuller's ESB. Just something with an English inspiration.

Malts are primarily Pale Ale (9lb), with some medium (1/2 lb) and dark crystal (1/2 lb), and some Victory (1/2 lb) as well.
Hops are a combo of First Gold and East Kent Goldings, 50/50 added in the boil, at -15 minutes, and some at flame-out left to sit as well.
Wyeast 1968 this batch but have used A09 Pub as well, always fermented around 70 or so to get some extra esters.

I keep getting a flavor I'd describe as earthy, maybe like rye. I can't seem to get rid of it. I don't hate it, but I don't want it.

I thought it was the Victory perhaps, but a version I made a while back removed the Victory and had no change to this flavor.
I thought it was the Maris Otter perhaps, but the change to Pale Ale made no difference.

I have doubted it was the yeast, but could the warmer temps be pushing this flavor out?

Seems most likely it's the hops. Could anyone take a guess on which it might be? I'll cut it out of the next version. I suppose the flame-out addition is amplifying this hop flavor, if it is indeed the hops.

 

[schmurf]

I think Victory is equivalent to Amber malt, right? I know that some people have issues with Amber malt, taste wise. Personally I like it in small doses but when too much is used I certainly can understand people not liking it.

 

[tracer bullet]

I read it's equivalent to biscuit. Well, comparable. I did a recipe without any Victory and it made no difference. That said... if 2 ingredients give the flavor, and I only remove one...

I always thought it as a "rye" flavor, and tried to pin it on a grain, but it may be "earthy" instead which could be ascribed to a hop. They don't have this smell from the bag but heat changes things.

 

[HM-2]

Both amber and Biscuit are Similar to victory IME- I think being frank both Victory and Biscuit are different maltsters "branded" takes on amber malt. Certainly Crisp list their Amber malt with the line "also known as Biscuit".

 

[DBhomebrew]

Amber (UK, slightly different according to maltster) and Victory (US, trademarked by Briess) are biscuit-type malts. "High Dried"

 

[DBhomebrew]

I've got a couple bottles still of a HB '39 Fullers OBE, the precursor to ESB. In lieu of dry hopping, that one got a big flameout/whirlpool addition. Earthy, but in a very resiny way. Now that I've gone back to 60m bittering plus a dry hop, that middle resiny zone is gone and the malt once again comes through.

 

[balrog]

I think Victory is equivalent to Amber malt, right? I know that some people have issues with Amber malt, taste wise. Personally I like it in small doses but when too much is used I certainly can understand people not liking it.

You really gotta crunch a few kernals of each. Really. Then brewing with each with no other differences in the grist.

We really need a grain sampler set. Someone should get to work on that.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Fuggles for me taste a little earthy or "woody". Could be the hops.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I enjoy that flavour though..

 

[Northern_Brewer]

it may be "earthy" instead which could be ascribed to a hop. They don't have this smell from the bag but heat changes things.

My first question would be - what vintage are the hops? Earthiness in hops is the result of a cloudy July/August, whereas in sunny years the same hop will go more citrus/spicy.

That's relative to an average which depends on the variety - Goldings and First Gold aren't generally earthy whereas Fuggles is earthy almost always except in the really sunny years like 2018 and 2022.

 

[tracer bullet]

Good question on the hop year, 2019, I believe, for the First Gold. It came from Northwest Hop Farms directly, they ensured me it was good as new. The EKG was whatever Midwest Supplies had in stock in their store. The IBU's are constantly changing so I am guessing things get rotated decently but there's no age indicator on the packages.

I've been chasing an elusive marmalade flavor, with a pinch of toffee perhaps. It's actually a pretty good beer, I'll enjoy it, but I would like to remove this particular flavor component (the rye / earthiness thing).

I've noticed that as these beers age, it's a flavor that doesn't really go away. I do my best to not oxidize the beer, so maybe the aging thing isn't a good indicator - I start drinking them 3 - 4 weeks after brewing them, and they last a month or so. I'm thinking if it is indeed a hop flavor I'm picking up on, it would diminish after a while.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I brewed that 39 OBE back in Spring 22. It's still got that resinous hop layer.

 

[Colindo]

First Gold creates a harsher bitterness than other hops. Maybe one of its additions causes this flavour. Try an all-EKG version to see if that's the issue. Then from there you can add First Gold back at different points to see which ones work well.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Good question on the hop year, 2019, I believe, for the First Gold.

That's probably it then, 2019 was a cloudy year.

 

[Colindo]

While we're at the topic, I have Northdown from the 2020 harvest and with every beer I had quite a pronounced resiny flavour. My question would be if that is normal for the hop or if that is an issue with the harvest. Especially since I know that Fuller's uses this hop and their beers taste nothing like that. Additions were always at the last five to ten minutes of the boil.

I know that the German brewery Störtebeker had the same issue when brewing the winner beer of the 2020 German beer championship. The style was Irish Red Ale and the winner's beer used Northdown in the last five minutes. The commercial result had the same resiny flavour as my beers. In an interview the winner stated that the commercial beer tasted quite different from his competition entry.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Haven't used Northdown in a while, but I believe Fullers use them in the bittering charger, no?
Last time I had Northdown it gave a sort of "piney" taste when used late, could be a question of timing with the use of it.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Haven't used Northdown in a while, but I believe Fullers use them in the bittering charger, no?
Last time I had Northdown it gave a sort of "piney" taste when used late, could be a question of timing with the use of it.
Edit: Challenger to me gives a rather similair flavour when used as a later addition.

 

[Colindo]

Fuller's use Northdown in the last five minutes.

I haven't used Challenger for aroma yet, only bittering.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Gonna transfer the old ale tonight.
The carboy was cleaned last night, have mixed some sanitiser solution and will boil ~10g of medium toast French oak cubes for 10 min now. The Brett has spent a couple hours warming up to room temp.

 

[Miraculix]

Gonna transfer the old ale tonight.
The carboy was cleaned last night, have mixed some sanitiser solution and will boil ~10g of medium toast French oak cubes for 10 min now. The Brett has spent a couple hours warming up to room temp.

Awesome! Will do the same with my 1800s London porter tonight, minus the oak!

 

[DBhomebrew]

Gonna transfer the old ale tonight.
The carboy was cleaned last night, have mixed some sanitiser solution and will boil ~10g of medium toast French oak cubes for 10 min now. The Brett has spent a couple hours warming up to room temp.

Awesome! Will do the same with my 1800s London porter tonight, minus the oak!

I'll transfer mine this weekend too! With oak, but not as much.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Plan on getting about 12L in to the carboy so a bit under 1g/L should be good, figure it's gonna age for a while with after the secondary so it should be a rather mellow/subtle oak character.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I'm pulling back on the oak given last year's batches of Traquair and stock ales coming out too oak-y. Quite likely I'm overcompensating and I'll wish there was more.

Already planning 2024's.

 

[Miraculix]

I never got this oak thing. I have made meads that were oaked... horrible to my taste. Beer was even worse (not mine, but literally any oaked beer i have had). Only thing I can stand oak in is strong and intense dry red wine.

I think, if Iremember correctly, oak flavour from the barrel was even considered a fault in back in the days UK. They lined their barrels from the inside so that they would not contribute any flavour.

 

[DBhomebrew]

They lined their barrels from the inside so that they would not contribute any flavour.

I can't immediately provide a reference, but I don't think that's true.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

They lined the barrels sometimes, most often not.
American oak was disliked because of too strong oak flavour, with milder French and Hungarian preffered.
So "barrel character" was probably present in ales that were aged for some time, but they steamed the barrels to both clean them and make the oak character imparted more subtle.

 

[Miraculix]

I can't immediately provide a reference, but I don't think that's true.

Well let us find a reference or debunk my statement (I am also not 100% sure if I am making this one up tbh)... @Northern_Brewer would you mind sharing some of your knowledge?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

My source is Porter! By Ron. He has a chapter in it regarding oak flavour and lining of barrels.