English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[McMullan]

Napoleonic Wars* well predates even "Brewers' Invert Sugars".

Yes. And? Don't fortuitous practices ever have beginnings that develop? The point was, cane sugar clearly became a viable (affordable) option in surplus for early 19th century brewers, due to blockades enforced by the British navy during the Napoleonic wars, which was why the French invested in sugar beet. Whatever draconian British legislation followed, after whatever events caused by poor practices (taxation or chemistry, or the abuse of one to favour the other), didn't really prevent what clearly became standard practice of cane sugar additions to English ales, it looks like. At least in my uncomplicated world.

 

[McMullan]

@McMullan
We are in desperate need of some more home made yorkshire square-porn!

I'll see what I can do. I think I might be a bit short on keg lube, though.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

@Peebee: To further your historical analysis and muck things up even more..... they probably used the old way of using slaked lime water for the acidic to cause inversion, then probably gypsum to neutralize it. of course the added ppm of each would affect the water composition.

So the old Dave Line's "glucose chips" were probably born from the "old way" of this in general.

Rather than leaving it up to chance of the affect on the water, if I could figure out the ppm contribution of the above said "glucose chips" on a per pound basis, I could deduct from my water additions and have control. Then it would be cool to re-create these chips, being it would actually have a two part purpose: Taste of inverted sugar, and water contribution that is controlled.

Edit: I might want to add that acid has been shown to emulsify gypsum, actually allowing it to be incorporated into water.

 

[huckdavidson]

@Peebee: To further your historical analysis and muck things up even more..... they probably used the old way of using slaked lime water for the acidic to cause inversion, then probably gypsum to neutralize it. of course the added ppm of each would affect the water composition.

So the old Dave Line's "glucose chips" were probably born from the "old way" of this in general.

Rather than leaving it up to chance of the affect on the water, if I could figure out the ppm contribution of the above said "glucose chips" on a per pound basis, I could deduct from my water additions and have control. Then it would be cool to re-create these chips, being it would actually have a two part purpose: Taste of inverted sugar, and water contribution that is controlled.

Edit: I might want to add that acid has been shown to emulsify gypsum, actually allowing it to be incorporated into water.

Slaked lime is an alkali used to raise pH, how would it be used to lower pH - or are you saying inversion also occurs at a high pH?

How would gypsum be used to neutralize an alkaline water?

I haven't seen glucose chips in over two decades give or take.

 

[InspectorJon]

Slaked lime is an alkali used to raise pH, how would it be used to lower pH - or are you saying inversion also occurs at a high pH?

Maybe he has those backwards. I know that when I add gypsum using a water calculator it lowers mash pH and pickling lime raises pH. When he first said lime I thought of the fruit, West Indies and all. That would lower pH. People have mentioned using lemon juice to make inverted sugar.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

go here: Lime and Sugar

Yes. prolly Backwardz........... lime to purify teh sugar.

 

[huckdavidson]

Maybe he has those backwards. I know that when I add gypsum using a water calculator it lowers mash pH and pickling lime raises pH. When he first said lime I thought of the fruit, West Indies and all. That would lower pH. People have mentioned using lemon juice to make inverted sugar.

The interaction of calcium with mash components such as phosphates is what lowers mash pH. The interaction of adding gypsum to a slaked lime solution does nothing of the sort. Lime and lemon juices are acidic and may act to lower the pH of a solution.

https://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2011/02/01/calcium-and-magnesiums-effect-on-mash-ph/

 

[huckdavidson]

go here: Lime and Sugar

Yes. prolly Backwardz........... lime to purify teh sugar.

Lime is used in the industrial beet sugar making process to "capture and remove impurities in the juice of sugar beet" and "it is also often used to clean and neutralise wastewater produced by sugar beet". The byproducts of those processes are also useful. None of that has anything to do with the inversion process.

 

[Peebee]

they probably used the old way of using slaked lime water for the acidic to cause inversion ...

Wrong! Lime was for clarifying the juice. Other useful effects were incidental (though they probably understood by then that lime prevented "inversion"). They certainly didn't want it "inverting" at-all ... they would not get any sugar out that way, the syrup would remain liquid (no crystallisation). Check out "strike" in early refining, a particularly skillful procedure that if done wrong resulted in a useless sludge of molasses.

 

[Peebee]

go here: Lime and Sugar

Yes. prolly Backwardz........... lime to purify the sugar.

Oops, sorry, you'd already figured the lime was for purifying/clarifying ... and they still use it in modern refining!

I don't think they use another component with lime these days (egg whites or blood!).


[EDIT: Being a Brit I only said Lime 'cos I couldn't remember how it was referred to over there: Pickling Lime; I know now, although I think everyone would understand if I'd said Slaked Lime.]

 

[DuncB]

*For the telly watchers: That's the time the BBC series "Sharpe" (Sean Bean) and his soldiering antics in Spain/Portugal is set.

Early 1990s I think?

 

[Peebee]

Early 1990s I think?

According to IMDb 1993 to 2008 (although I'm sure the last episodes I watched said 2006). I watched them on BBC iPlayer, but they are available on Britbox for the rest of the world. Google reckon they originally played on ITV, but that isn't supported by me watching them on iPlayer. Great for getting the head in the right timeframe for doing a bit of beer/sugar history grubbing (though the series of TV programs are quite possibly historically questionable?). Flintlock rifles with your sugar.

[EDIT: Humm, getting a bit muddled there: I probably was watching Sharpe on "Britbox", not iPlayer. Sharpe probably was first shown on ITV? ... you're on your own with this one, I think that Alexa has been mucking 'bout with me 'ead. "Sharpe" was probably a woman dancing in a saloon of some Western or other?]

Anyway ...

Trampling all over the popular ideas of "caramelising" sugar to create "Brewers' Invert Sugar" (along with related background from @McMullan, for which I'm very thankful) wasn't my only objective: A few posts back I was attempting to get support to redirect all that effort "caramelising" sugars to a period a few years later (end of 19th C., throughout the 20th) when sugars for brewing British beer were potentially caramelised and a range of proprietary sugars were in used. I provided some examples that Mr R.P. had been ranting about, and he posted some more the other day (he undoubtably has many more):

Light Ale sugars 1968 - 1984

Having collected and grouped some of these together, sugars from a range of "generic" caramelised sugars could be assigned? All so a "favorite recipe" for a British beer from not too long ago could be replicated. Or that's the idea... It's already challanging and I've hardly started yet.

"Caramel" flavoured beer will be noticable. If you've ever brewed with "Golden Syrup" you'd know (some people don't like the flavour of Golden Syrup in beer ... doesn't bother me!).

 

[McMullan]

Trampling all over the popular ideas of "caramelising" sugar to create "Brewers' Invert Sugar"

I won’t argue with that. Many home brewers have clearly been poorly informed about British brewer’s inverts by terrible self-styled pseudo-experts with blogs and YouTube channels. Two completely different products (procedures using different reagents) with different uses in brewing. One a perfectly acceptable ‘cheat’ to boost alcohol and add a lusciousness that complements English ales, taking them to next level. The other popularised, in a century that witnessed an explosion in sugar-related industries, to control (mimic) colour. No doubt some chose to be different and combine the two (caramelise invert) not caring much that the beneficial qualities produced by the first procedure were being undone and efforts being wasted. Much easier to just caramelise sucrose or glucose, with a food-grade ammonia salt. But I suspect it’s too much bother (with diminishing returns) to replicate an imaginary standard at home. Just buy some ammonia caramel then add to taste. If you want to make it at home, make your own standard. Or use darker malts to add colour and flavour. Whatever’s simplest. It’s only beer.

Edit: For those in the UK, this is ammonia caramel. I prefer roasted barley in my homemade Guinness. Sometimes with some genuine (uncaramelised) invert #3.

 

[Brewskey]

Edit: For those in the UK, this is ammonia caramel. I prefer roasted barley in my homemade Guinness. Sometimes with some genuine (uncaramelised) invert #3.

Looks like it's available on Amazon for us "USians". How much salt is in this stuff? I see it in the ingredients but I'm not finding anything saying how much is in it.

Edit: I found this so I guess that answers my question.

 

[AlcheMania]

OK, so it seems almost everyone is into the make-your-nose-run hop forward double, triple and quaduruple IPA's with IBU's over 100. That's fine if you like it. But personally, I enjoy traditional English beers. I get a lot of enjoyment from a very good common bitters, porter, SB or ESB. English beers provide a comfortable easy drinking beer that I can enjoy through an entire evening. Perhaps there are others here who feel the same way.

Would you care to share your favorite recipe? And why do you like this beer?

Thanks to all who care to contribute their views and their recipes.

Cheers!

I loooove the Maris Otter and British Yeast malt flavor profile. Though i feel the typical British lacks balance and complexity. Kind of a one trick pony IMO. So i add a touch of both pale chocolate and carafa II for some chocolate/roast dryness in the finish as well as some extra saaz (along with the typical EKG) at flameout to spice up and balance the nose a bit. I ferment somewhat high at 68F but i find these additions balance out the intense malt and ester flavors flavors well.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Though i feel the typical British lacks balance and complexity.

We do but what about the beer?

 

[Brewskey]

I loooove the Maris Otter and British Yeast malt flavor profile. Though i feel the typical British lacks balance and complexity. Kind of a one trick pony IMO. So i add a touch of both pale chocolate and carafa II for some chocolate/roast dryness in the finish as well as some extra saaz (along with the typical EKG) at flameout to spice up and balance the nose a bit. I ferment somewhat high at 68F but i find these additions balance out the intense malt and ester flavors flavors well.

I usually dry hop English ales with about 4oz of Simcoe, it really brings the complexity.

 

[Miraculix]

Sweet!

 

[Miraculix]

I'll see what I can do. I think I might be a bit short on keg lube, though.

We like it rough and raw.

 

[McMullan]

We like it rough and raw.

It takes a lot more experience and attention to detail to make a beer come even close to a fine English ale. A lot more than simply banging away at it and pretending you're doing it right.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Found some goodies the other day...

 

[Peebee]

I'll see what I can do. I think I might be a bit short on keg lube, though.

We like it rough and raw.

It takes a lot more experience and attention to detail to make a beer come even close to a fine English ale. A lot more than simply banging away at it and pretending you're doing it right.

You're both losing me a bit here ... Hang on ... (Carol ... Carol! ... What are these guys talking about ... Well? ... Ow... what was that for?).

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Fake it til' ya make it!

 

[eshea3]

Found some goodies the other day.

Delivered by my returning UK travelers.

 

[Miraculix]

Delivered by my returning UK travelers.

Nice one! I'd also love to have one or six.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Too good not to share. @Northern_Brewer shared two articles from Martyn Cornell on why Prize Old Ale is so unique and special:

Seasons Will Pass You By — The Return of Gale's Prize Old Ale — Pellicle​

[ Content warning: this feature contains a reference to suicide ] If Gale’s Prize Old Ale were a building, it would long ago have been listed Grade 1 by English Heritage as something of exceptional national importance. The survival of this rich, strong, deep, sweet-sour, dark, fruity, umami-laden b
www.pelliclemag.com

Bittersweet Complexity — The Re-Re-Rebirth of Gales Prize Old Ale — Good Beer Hunting​

The beer in the jug is a deep, deep brown, so dark it is almost black. Half of it was brewed only two months ago; the other half is a melange of different brewings, in three different breweries, with a lineage going back exactly 100 years. Brewer Sven Hartmann pours some into a glass for me, and I www.goodbeerhunting.com

 

[eshea3]

Nice one! I'd also love to have one or six.

Still available on the Web site

 

[eshea3]

Too good not to share. @Northern_Brewer shared two articles from Martyn Cornell on why Prize Old Ale is so unique and special:

Seasons Will Pass You By — The Return of Gale's Prize Old Ale — Pellicle​

[ Content warning: this feature contains a reference to suicide ] If Gale’s Prize Old Ale were a building, it would long ago have been listed Grade 1 by English Heritage as something of exceptional national importance. The survival of this rich, strong, deep, sweet-sour, dark, fruity, umami-laden b
www.pelliclemag.com

Bittersweet Complexity — The Re-Re-Rebirth of Gales Prize Old Ale — Good Beer Hunting​

The beer in the jug is a deep, deep brown, so dark it is almost black. Half of it was brewed only two months ago; the other half is a melange of different brewings, in three different breweries, with a lineage going back exactly 100 years. Brewer Sven Hartmann pours some into a glass for me, and I www.goodbeerhunting.com

Those are 2 excellent articles by Martin. The first one from last year led me to the 2022 version. Had one of those in 22 and another a few weeks ago. His description is quite accurate

 

[Miraculix]

Still available on the Web site.

I'm afraid they're not exporting to Germany or any other country....

 

[eshea3]

I'm afraid they're not exporting to Germany or any other country....

Had the same issue with parts for a beer engine at Angram. Couldn't even put in my credit card from the US.Fortunately I had a "smuggler" who visited the UK and family to have the shipments delivered.

 

[Miraculix]

Had the same issue with parts for a beer engine at Angram. Couldn't even put in my credit card from the US.Fortunately I had a "smuggler" who visited the UK and family to have the shipments delivered.

Well, that way I could get everything I wanted from Nepal, but unfortunately not from the UK.

 

[McMullan]

Had the same issue with parts for a beer engine at Angram. Couldn't even put in my credit card from the US.Fortunately I had a "smuggler" who visited the UK and family to have the shipments delivered.

Not just to do with Brexit making the UK border less permeable, but the tight-arse Norway government convincing the EU to grab as much VAT on importants as they could. Down to the last kroner at any cost to the consumer. Either they’re struggling economically or they’ve got compulsive greed issues. Do the maths and decide for yourselves. They call it "VOEC" (VAT on e-commerce) and it reinforced how the UK, US and EU are actually competitors economically. It was rolled out quite opportunistically under all the Brexit noise. All just to fleece consumers a little more under stressful times for billionaires and their greedy shareholders. Regardless, it's always worth requesting a shipping quote or trying an alternative supplier like RLBS Ltd.

 

[Brooothru]

go here: Lime and Sugar

Yes. prolly Backwardz........... lime to purify teh sugar.

Wait. Didn't Harry Chapin say, "You put the lime in the coconut..."?

 

[ba-brewer]

Wait. Didn't Harry Chapin say, "You put the lime in the coconut..."?

that was Harry Nilsson

 

[DuncB]

Had the same issue with parts for a beer engine at Angram. Couldn't even put in my credit card from the US.Fortunately I had a "smuggler" who visited the UK and family to have the shipments delivered.

I managed to order from RLBS using a VPN. But still got delivery to a UK address and friend brought the supplies back.

 

[McMullan]

That's a shame, looks like RLBS no longer ship internationally. Not even via their ebay store. Probably too much paperwork and other hassle. Although ebay's platform takes care of most of it, so if you have a helpful contact in the UK, they could ship things via an engineered ebay purchase, if you know what I mean. There seems to be a lot of shenanigans going on at the moment, though, with extortionate shipping rates, while international shipping costs have fallen so much shipping firms are cutting back or going out of business. Must keep the shareholders happy, I guess. Ripping off the rest of us. Malt Miller seems to have invested in maintaining sales to Europe at least. I got a sack of Chevallier from them a few weeks back. With shipping and import, and despite a few add-ons, the most expensive sack of grain I ever bought. Very nice, though.

 

[Miraculix]

That's a shame, looks like RLBS no longer ship internationally. Not even via their ebay store. Probably too much paperwork and other hassle. Although ebay's platform takes care of most of it, so if you have a helpful contact in the UK, they could ship things via an engineered ebay purchase, if you know what I mean. There seems to be a lot of shenanigans going on at the moment, though, with extortionate shipping rates, while international shipping costs have fallen so much shipping firms are cutting back or going out of business. Must keep the shareholders happy, I guess. Ripping off the rest of us. Malt Miller seems to have invested in maintaining sales to Europe at least. I got a sack of Chevallier from them a few weeks back. With shipping and import, and despite a few add-ons, the most expensive sack of grain I ever bought. Very nice, though.

Maltmiller is the most reliable and knowledgeable shop I've witnessed so far. Always great. Wether buying from UK or from Germany.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Big thanks to @Northern_Brewer, who has reasons to visit the Seattle area, for a very enjoyable afternoon yesterday sampling some great English beers he procured and then hand carried over to the local Machine House Brewery, which specializes in English cask ales. All were superlative brews.

Dark Star was very complex and amazing. Fingers crossed my culture of the dregs will turn out.

Ditto with the Yorkshire Stingo dregs.

The gob-smacking surprise award goes to the supermarket available Adnams Broadside. Caramel and roasty. That was a damn fine balanced beer! Anyone have a tribute or clone recipe?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Big thanks to @Northern_Brewer, who has reasons to visit the Seattle area, for a very enjoyable afternoon yesterday sampling some great English beers he procured and then hand carried over to the local Machine House Brewery, which specializes in English cask ales. All were superlative brews.

Dark Star was very complex and amazing. Fingers crossed my culture of the dregs will turn out.

Ditto with the Yorkshire Stingo dregs.

The gob-smacking surprise award goes to the supermarket available Adnams Broadside. Caramel and roasty. That was a damn fine balanced beer! Anyone have a tribute or clone recipe?

Home run in every way!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Big thanks to The gob-smacking surprise award goes to the supermarket available Adnams Broadside. Caramel and roasty. That was a damn fine balanced beer! Anyone have a tribute or clone recipe?
[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]
This post spurred me on, as I'd read of the Broadside before and after seeing from Adnams that the bottle is 100% First Gold, I had to dive in. Anyway, cannot say it's anything other than a first pass, but [URL='https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/wlp025-southwold-any-profiles-close-adnams-broadside-esque.730492/']working on it now fwiw[/URL]. Thanks for the inspiration.