Emulating genuine british beers

[jalmeida]

Yesterday I posted a thread on this, but it appears as though it did not appear.

First off, my name is John and I am new here. I am happy to have a source to learn about brewing. I have been brewing all grain for 6 months and have been learning a ton. I am looking forward to continue learning and contribution to the knowledge bank once I know what the hell I am doing

My main interest is brewing authentic british style ales. I have been reading, researching and trying different methods to emulate a true british style beer. As I have found you can get the exact grain profile, hops and yeast and still not get an authentic English style beer. I have several theories on what gives british beers their unique flavor, but have not proven those theories yet. First off I will share the facts that I know for sure that define the recipe of a true british beer.

1. Top cropping british yeast strains are a must to emulate a true ale. Not much else to add here.

2. Open fermentation. This is often scary to try on a homebrew scale. I have experimented by splitting 10 gallon batches into two 5 gallon batches and open fermented one and close fermented the other. The flavor differences were quite noticeable. From what I have found the three main benefits of open fermentation are: easy yeast harvesting, better oxidation of the yeast during fermentation and higher ester content.

A note on open fermentation: The key to safely open ferment beer is to keep the fermenter closed until high krausen. Once the top is off check the beer daily. As soon as the krausen drops immediately rack to secondary. Otherwise the wort is open to all sorts of bad things that can ruin a batch.

Now, in addition to the above factors I would like to discuss fermenters. Their are several different types of open fermenters used in England. The Burton union, Yorkshire Square and the simple open top fermenter. The one thing I know for sure is all of the british open fermenters recirculate wort from the bottom and spray over the top of the wort, minus the burton union. This is to rouse the yeast and rotate still active yeast to the top. This also oxidizes the beer which allows the fermentation to be more active and finish quicker.

Now here is where my theories start. It is my theory that the recirculating and oxidizing of the wort lends certain flavors that cannot be emulated without recirculating. I have not proven this yet, but I am working on a way to do this so that I can prove this.

The other thing I would like to discuss is boil length. I have found several English recipes citing 90 minute boil times instead of 60 minutes. It is possible that the extended boil time crystalizes some of the sugars and turns some sugars into non-fermentable sugars that would lend certain flavors otherwise difficult to emulate. I am not 100% sure what the difference that this will make, but I intend on trying this and seeing what difference this makes.

I am experimenting with these theories in between brewing traditional beer recipes knowing that the risk of spoilage or other contamination is fairly high when experimenting. So I accept the risk when performing these and am aware of the dangers.

Anyways, some of these theories may be far fetched and may not make any difference, but any input on this from the more knowledgeable would be appreciated. Hopefully this would be a good jumping off point for discussion on the matter.

 

[Pie_Man]

Are you refering to any specific British beers that you would like to emulate? While I love British beers, they are not all created equally, and different British beers have different styles.

In my experience, a quality fermentation with an appropriately sized yeast starter, aeration, and temperature control can produce a very good British beer, one that I would say emulates the taste and flavor of some of the best English beers I have tried.

A couple easy things to try:
1. A 90 boil does darken the beer and create more sugar caramelization or melanoidin character in my opinion.
2. With a carboy and clean and sanitized fermentation area, you can try open fermenting. I would place a sanitized paper towel over the carboy opening to prevent any dust and insects from entering the carboy.
3. If you want to create a little oxidation during fermentation, you can rouse/swirl the open carboy around a little bit after high krausen. If you do this repeatedly, I think you can create some oxidation (although I don't think all English beers are oxidized).
4. You did not mention serving procedures. There are cask ale setups on the home brew scale that you can use to serve your beer and create an authentic cask (real ale) serving experience. The cask ale serving method can make a big difference to finished beer and its very traditional.

I hope this helps. Good luck on your quest.

 

[jalmeida]

Are you refering to any specific British beers that you would like to emulate? While I love British beers, they are not all created equally, and different British beers have different styles.

In my experience, a quality fermentation with an appropriately sized yeast starter, aeration, and temperature control can produce a very good British beer, one that I would say emulates the taste and flavor of some of the best English beers I have tried.

A couple easy things to try:
1. A 90 boil does darken the beer and create more sugar caramelization or melanoidin character in my opinion.
2. With a carboy and clean and sanitized fermentation area, you can try open fermenting. I would place a sanitized paper towel over the carboy opening to prevent any dust and insects from entering the carboy.
3. If you want to create a little oxidation during fermentation, you can rouse/swirl the open carboy around a little bit after high krausen. If you do this repeatedly, I think you can create some oxidation (although I don't think all English beers are oxidized).
4. You did not mention serving procedures. There are cask ale setups on the home brew scale that you can use to serve your beer and create an authentic cask (real ale) serving experience. The cask ale serving method can make a big difference to finished beer and its very traditional.

I hope this helps. Good luck on your quest.

One particular beer I hold very high is Samuel Smiths. Which I do think tastes more oxidized than other british beers.

I have so far not tasted any homebrews that have hit the quality or even the flavor qualities of Samuel Smiths, Morland or St Peters. I am not saying that somebody hasn't. I just haven't tasted any. But I have tasted a ton of really quality attempts that are great. But not the same.

I have attempted the swirling aeration method, but I am not sure it rouses the yeast with the same efficiency of the recirculation method. That is why I want to try a different method. I am more interested in how the rousing method effects flavor (minus contamination flavor ).

 

[moviebrain]

With regards to the oxidation character, are you attempting to clone a "I was in Britain in a pub and had a pint" or "I had a Sam Smith's from the BevCo" beer?

I can say with experience that the British "character" I notice in English bottled beers in North America was not present in a London pub pour.

With a good water profile, floor malted grains, a good minerally English yeast, and a lower carbonation at bottling for the Real Ale-style beer engine mouthfeel you'll nail it.

 

[longhornbarrett]

My favorite beers are from my homeland and i am experimenting as much as I can to reproduce them as well. I will be interested to find out your results

Sent from my HTC One using Home Brew mobile app

 

[Pie_Man]

Moviebrain makes a good point. Depending on a number of variables related to the handling and treatment of the packaged beer you are consuming, the "English character" you are perceiving, may be oxidiation and not the true English character people often reference. While some English beers like Sam Smith's do ferment in open vessels, and recirculate their mash to a degree (I think), a quality English beer is not said to be oxidized in flavor (except for English barleywines and imperial stouts). I have experienced this myself, as I too really enjoy English beers, particularly Sam Smith's. Most of the time, the Sam Smith's I buy in my area are fine, and in that case I do not perceive oxidation, but I have had some versions that were past there prime and off tasting. Even more so with the St. Peter's beers.

If it an oxidized character that you like in the beer, that's fine. You will probably have more success splashing the beer around at bottling time or storing it at room temperature for months on end to create an oxidized character.

I'll add that oxidation takes many forms. Many people describe it as papery or cardboard like, and that can occur, but oxidation can also make a beer seem dull or lifeless. Other times, typically when there are dark malts, oxidation can add sherry or port like flavors, sometimes even a fruitiness of sorts. Essentially, I believe it depends on what ingredients are being oxidized (at least to an extent) which determines the perceived oxidation character.

 

[jalmeida]

I am aiming at duplicating the beers I can get here in the US from England. My favorite of which is Samuel Smiths specifically the Taddy Porter. They all seem to have an underlying flavor that is hard to identify. Once you can identify the hops, grains and other characteristics imparted by the mash temp, yeast and such their is still another flavor that cannot be identified. And it is present in the pales, ESBs, Porters, Stouts and such.

Unless their is a secret ingredient used in all of those beers, it has to be something with the brewing or fermenting technique that isn't practiced here. So far the closest US beer I have tasted compared to the bottled beers we get here from England is Anchor Porter IMHO. It has that unique flavor.

FWIW I have tasted several American attempts at a british beer both homebrew and professional brewery and Anchor is the only one that seems close. Many good beers, but still missing that something.

As far as oxidation goes, wouldn't the effects of oxidation be dependent on the time and manner or oxidation? Such as oxidation during racking or during fermentation? Or even the cask aging?

 

[afr0byte]

I have to say, I almost never buy Samuel Smith because I always get bottles with an oxidized character. I had a Samuel Smith pale ale recently (I wanted to try some commericial British pales to compare to my current British pale.) that was cloyingly sweet as a result of what seemed to be oxidation. It had a strong candi sugar / sherry flavor to it. Perhaps you could describe what flavor you're looking for?

 

[jalmeida]

The other British beers I have had such as hens tooth, St. Peter's, and countless others have a very unique and difficult to identify flavor. Maybe not oxidized.

 

[afr0byte]

The other British beers I have had such as hens tooth, St. Peter's, and countless others have a very unique and difficult to identify flavor. Maybe not oxidized.

Perhaps you could attempt to put it in to words? It's pretty much impossible for us to help otherwise.

 

[progmac]

imo, this thread is the most informative on the topic:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/b...on-temps-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts-221817/

i'm going down this road myself and it is quite a challenge to say the least.

i think one of the keys is getting the beer off of the yeast as soon as possible. i am working on a bitter right now and used a fast ferment test to determine actual FG. once my main batch reaches that gravity, i will immediately cold crash and then bottle. i will then keep the bottles chilled from the minute they are carbed. my goal is a rich malt character and just a hint of diacetyl.

another secret might be underpitching the yeast but working hard to keep it very healthy. still trying to wrap my head around how to go about this effectively. in the batch i mention above, i pitched a vial of english yeast directly after one minute of pure o2.

personally, i have never made or tasted a homebrew that even approaches the good english bitters.

 

[jalmeida]

Perhaps you could attempt to put it in to words? It's pretty much impossible for us to help otherwise.

If it was easy to put into words, I would have. But it is a very unique flavor that is difficult to describe. It is not yeast, malt or hops that is the unique flavor. If you have had Samuel Smiths, Morland, St Peters or the other fairly unpopular beers it is very obvious that their is another flavor characteristic. If you can't taste it when you drink these beers then me trying to describe it will be pointless. The people that know what I am talking about will know how difficult it is to nail down.

 

[Braufessor]

I don't know that bottled versions of english beer that you buy in america really have "authentic" english character. To me, the "hard to describe/unique" character I usually get in samuel smiths is "light struck" from improperly stored clear bottles.

To me, it would be hard to have an "authentic" bitter that was not served with a beer engine...... which is why I bought one for xmas

I probably make 10-15 batches of ordinary bitter a year.... another 7-10 of british mild. I have had pretty good success with my british bitter I think. I based it off of "The Innkeeper" recipe on Northern Brewers website. Nothing special - maris otter, fawcett crystal 120, half pound of corn sugar. EKG hops. I really do like Wyeast 1469 for my bitters - I think it is a yeast that adds some character.

 

[jalmeida]

I don't know that bottled versions of english beer that you buy in america really have "authentic" english character. To me, the "hard to describe/unique" character I usually get in samuel smiths is "light struck" from improperly stored clear bottles.

To me, it would be hard to have an "authentic" bitter that was not served with a beer engine...... which is why I bought one for xmas

I probably make 10-15 batches of ordinary bitter a year.... another 7-10 of british mild. I have had pretty good success with my british bitter I think. I based it off of "The Innkeeper" recipe on Northern Brewers website. Nothing special - maris otter, fawcett crystal 120, half pound of corn sugar. EKG hops. I really do like Wyeast 1469 for my bitters - I think it is a yeast that adds some character.

The Samuel Smith beers I drink come in brown bottles (Nut Brown, Taddy and Oatmeal Stout). In fact I believe the only clear SS bottles I have seen here are the Samuel Smith Ciders. But that aside, it isn't just Samuel Smiths. They all seem to have a unique british flavor characteristic.

I don't disagree with your thoughts. I do however think that many people narrow down the yeast, hops, malt and yeast characteristics and miss the little odd detail that is subtle and often hard to describe. Trust me, I get it. Some people don't taste it. It is just another beer. In fact some people may not be able to pick a british beer out of a blind lineup. I understand it because I can't get all the little nuances people taste with the American sours that seems to be the latest trend. I get it.

 

[afr0byte]

If it was easy to put into words, I would have. But it is a very unique flavor that is difficult to describe. It is not yeast, malt or hops that is the unique flavor. If you have had Samuel Smiths, Morland, St Peters or the other fairly unpopular beers it is very obvious that their is another flavor characteristic. If you can't taste it when you drink these beers then me trying to describe it will be pointless. The people that know what I am talking about will know how difficult it is to nail down.

Umm, OK. I still think it's likely staling related.

 

[afr0byte]

The Samuel Smith beers I drink come in brown bottles (Nut Brown, Taddy and Oatmeal Stout). In fact I believe the only clear SS bottles I have seen here are the Samuel Smith Ciders. But that aside, it isn't just Samuel Smiths. They all seem to have a unique british flavor characteristic.

I don't disagree with your thoughts. I do however think that many people narrow down the yeast, hops, malt and yeast characteristics and miss the little odd detail that is subtle and often hard to describe. Trust me, I get it. Some people don't taste it. It is just another beer. In fact some people may not be able to pick a british beer out of a blind lineup. I understand it because I can't get all the little nuances people taste with the American sours that seems to be the latest trend. I get it.

So if it's not malt, hops or yeast....it must be a water issue?

 

[jalmeida]

I don't doubt water being a factor. I think water, boil length and fermentation method are contributing factors. I just haven't proven it yet. The linked thread posted two posts up mentions fermentation temp as a factor. I would be interested in toying with that as well.

One thing I am really curious to do a side by side comparison of is the frequent rousing and circulation of yeast. Besides the known oxidation possibilities, that may cause different esters and other flavors caused by a yeast not allowed to fall out. When you consider that in a homebrew environment we only rouse yeast when the fermentation stalls or slows. With some of the English yeast that have been labeled as "lazy" it is very common for the breweries to maintain a regular rousing schedule that includes pumping the wort from the bottom to the top to rouse and recirculate yeast that may have fallen out but are not finished. So then the question is if you regularly recirculate the yeast and keep them eating until you hit your gravity target will the esters and such caused by the yeast be different? This is what I am interested in finding out.

 

[Braufessor]

Hmmmm... have not had samuel smiths in a while (years), but 99% sure I used to get some that came in clear bottles.... Could have been a different beer possibly, but I do see there are some examples of clear samuel smith bottles (beer - nut brown was one of them, not cider) on google images. Maybe it is something they have fazed out and don't do any more. Like I said, I have not bought it in bottle for a couple years at least.

Either way, I think what people are struggling with is that you are describing something that you do not attribute to any ingredient and no one else has tasted ...... and no style guidelines identify....
Personally, I agree that I think you are tasting english beer that is not "at its best" because of bottling, handling, shipping, shelf life, etc. It just reminds me of when I hear people who "can't quite get their pilsner to taste like .....whatever pilsner they drink out of green bottles...." and they want to know how to make it taste like that.

Have you used 1469 yeast? It does not drop out during ferment..... actually usually takes a week or two in the keg in the fridge for mine to really "clear up." It is also a yeast that produces a varieties of complex esters. Only thing I use for my bitters anymore. ALthough, I am going to try the 1318 (?) in a Boddington clone in the next week or two.

I can't say one way or another about the rousing of yeast, and recirculation of fermenting wort - I have not done it. I guess I will say, though, I think there are many examples of things that are necessary/useful/practical on a commercial scale that simply do not apply when brewing 5 gallons of beer. Sometimes breweries do those things because they have to.... not because it makes their beer better. Homebrewers are jealous of what commercial brewers do..... but, I think in reality, commercial brewers are probably jealous of what can be done on a homebrew scale that cannot really be done the same way on a commercial scale. Like I said - you could be right, and they only way I guess you know is to find someone who has done it, or do it yourself.

 

[jalmeida]

It isn't just one beer that has the unique characteristics. It is a large percentage that I have tasted from numerous brewers. And I would agree that is is tough to pin down when not everyone tastes it. But I wouldn't say nobody else tastes it. The guy in the thread you linked seems to have noticed it. It may just be one of those beer styles that can't be emulated. But I will say that I am skeptical of the beer not being optimum due to bottling conditions when numerous different brewers have similar (not identical) characteristics of what I am trying to emulate. And if some of the beers were stale from bottling or effected from light exposure than I would expect varying results with different bottles of the same beer which I have not observed.

I will keep experimenting and report back here of what I come across.

 

[afr0byte]

It isn't just one beer that has the unique characteristics. It is a large percentage that I have tasted from numerous brewers. And I would agree that is is tough to pin down when not everyone tastes it. But I wouldn't say nobody else tastes it. The guy in the thread you linked seems to have noticed it. It may just be one of those beer styles that can't be emulated. But I will say that I am skeptical of the beer not being optimum due to bottling conditions when numerous different brewers have similar (not identical) characteristics of what I am trying to emulate. And if some of the beers were stale from bottling or effected from light exposure than I would expect varying results with different bottles of the same beer which I have not observed.

I will keep experimenting and report back here of what I come across.

Im not sure you can say others can't taste it if we can't pin down what you're tasting.

 

[Riot]

Is the flavour that you're trying describe really prevalent in Fuller's ESB? If yes I think it's something to do with British malt beer being pasteurized. It's like caramel but not really sweet.

 

[gbx]

Does the flavour your talking about exist in cask pours in england on just bottled versions here? If its just bottled, then its oxidation.

The other uniquely british thing that i don't think anyone has mentioned is adjuncts. There is a lot of dark invert, treacle, torrified wheat, flaked maize and caramel colourant used in commercial beers. All of these things contribute a different flavour than the all-malt homebrew recipes with multiple crystals and black or chocolate malt for colour.

That said, this is https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/b...on-temps-profiles-cybi-other-thoughts-221817/ the thread you need to read about British yeast strains.

This is a great source for real british recipes http://www.unholymess.com/blog/lets-brew
The same site also has instructions for making invert syrup and caramel colourant: http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert

And if you love british brewing, the Brewing Network's Jamil podcast has had interviews with several brewmasters from UK breweries: Fullers, Well's, Blacksheep, Meantime, Wychwood.

 

[Landlord]

Now I know that you mentioned that it was not the ingredients that you thought were driving the flavours you were hoping for... but did you experiment with different yeasts? Which yeasts did you try? There is a big difference between some yeasts labelled british (ie SO4 and notty) compared to a something that gives that nice malt profile like wy1968, 1318 or my current favorite 1469.

 

[powermd]

I'm working on my first English ordinary bitter, and this is what I've come up with so far. I'm shooting for an easy drinking, just interesting enough, pub style ale. I don't really know how to articulate what I want other than to describe it this way.

Here's what I put down based on some recipes I've reviewed, and Jamil's article in BYO:

7 gal batch
Single infusion mash 152F, batch sparge.

Grain:
Maris Otter, 7 lbs
Crystal 20L, 0.75 lbs (9.4%)
Chocolate 4.0 oz

Chinook 0.6 oz @ 90 min
EKG 1 oz @10
Willamette 0.5 oz @ 0 min

Others:
Bitter orange peel 1.0 oz at 5 min
Burton water salts 1 tsp

Wyesast 1099, 1 pkg, 2L starter

EOG 1.039, IBU 31.5, Color 10.7 SRM, EABV 3.7%.

Will the Chinook be out of place?
Will the orange peel be too noticeable?

Thoughts?

 

[gbx]

I'm working on my first English ordinary bitter, and this is what I've come up with so far. I'm shooting for an easy drinking, just interesting enough, pub style ale. I don't really know how to articulate what I want other than to describe it this way.

Here's what I put down based on some recipes I've reviewed, and Jamil's article in BYO:

7 gal batch
Single infusion mash 152F, batch sparge.

Grain:
Maris Otter, 7 lbs
Crystal 20L, 0.75 lbs (9.4%)
Chocolate 4.0 oz

Chinook 0.6 oz @ 90 min
EKG 1 oz @10
Willamette 0.5 oz @ 0 min

Others:
Bitter orange peel 1.0 oz at 5 min
Burton water salts 1 tsp

Wyesast 1099, 1 pkg, 2L starter

EOG 1.039, IBU 31.5, Color 10.7 SRM, EABV 3.7%.

Will the Chinook be out of place?
Will the orange peel be too noticeable?

Thoughts?

I think yes to both those questions. Why the orange peel? If this is your first bitter, don't try to reinvent anything and keep it simple. Skip the orange peel, spend the extra buck and bitter with something English, don't mess around with Burton salts.

do a smaller batch if you aren't sure - something that light is easy to finish and not that heartbreaking if you end up dumping. With a smaller batch you wouldn't need a starter either

 

[brokebucket]

I think yes to both those questions. Why the orange peel? If this is your first bitter, don't try to reinvent anything and keep it simple. Skip the orange peel, spend the extra buck and bitter with something English, don't mess around with Burton salts.

do a smaller batch if you aren't sure - something that light is easy to finish and not that heartbreaking if you end up dumping. With a smaller batch you wouldn't need a starter either

+1. British beers have plenty of character, you dont need to doctor them up.

 

[powermd]

I skipped the orange peel, but still did 1 tsp Burton salts (I use RO water with only 6-7 ppm), and used the Chinook for bittering. We'll see how it goes. I can always brew another one!

 

[Aonghus]

I'm working on my first English ordinary bitter, and this is what I've come up with so far. I'm shooting for an easy drinking, just interesting enough, pub style ale. I don't really know how to articulate what I want other than to describe it this way.

Here's what I put down based on some recipes I've reviewed, and Jamil's article in BYO:

7 gal batch
Single infusion mash 152F, batch sparge.

Grain:
Maris Otter, 7 lbs
Crystal 20L, 0.75 lbs (9.4%)
Chocolate 4.0 oz




Chinook 0.6 oz @ 90 min
EKG 1 oz @10
Willamette 0.5 oz @ 0 min

Others:
Bitter orange peel 1.0 oz at 5 min
Burton water salts 1 tsp

Wyesast 1099, 1 pkg, 2L starter

EOG 1.039, IBU 31.5, Color 10.7 SRM, EABV 3.7%.

Will the Chinook be out of place?
Will the orange peel be too noticeable?

Thoughts?

I use Target hops or just load up on the EKG or Fuggles for bittering my British beers; I think you should drop the Chinook(just noticed that you already used it). I am not a fan of adding stuff like orange peels. The Burton salts make a heck of a difference in my beers (Everett water is similar to Czech Pilsen water) and will harden your water up nicely. I like the 90 minute boil and the M.O..