Element rust no more!

[TRG]

yea i wasnt trying to rain on anyones parade at all. i just cant understand why it should be working... as it does appear to be from several peoples reports. i would assume that the base of most elements would be mild steel plated with something like chromium, or possibly stainless.

It works only when there is an electrical connection between the Mg and Fe in the element. If you look up the standard reduction potentials of those two metals, you'll find that Mg has a far more negative reduction potential. Therefore when electrically connected to the Fe in your element, the 2 or 3 electrons (depending on whether you're oxidizing to the +2 or +3 state) that the Fe would normally lose in the 'rusting' process are replaced by 2 from the magnesium. Essentially what this is doing is instead of the Fe acting as the anode, it becomes the cathode when connected to Mg due to the difference in their standard reduction potentials.

Sorry if this is a bit too much - I'm a chemist... but in a nutshell - electrically connected = will work.

 

[kal]

I have these exact ones, except mine are 5500w.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/250954532816
They are sandhog brand, I don't have a part # I bought them from a member here on hbt. But you can see in the eBay picture there is some sort af anode at the base. It doesn't look aluminum to me. I'm not sure what kind of metal it is.

Interesting! I've never seen these before. That would appear to be a pretty elegant solution, but without knowing what the anode is, it's hard to recommend. If it's Mg that would be great!

It's ULWD just by looking a the length which is good. (pretty much has to be at 4500W).

Kal

 

[durban]

Has anyone ever cut one of these anodes in half so it doesn't stick into the kettle so far? It seems like 4 1/2" is a little much.

The bases of the Camco anodes are steel, the Mg part is on the end, so cutting them really isn't an option.

 

[kevink]

The bases of the Camco anodes are steel, the Mg part is on the end, so cutting them really isn't an option.

Why is cutting them not an option? I'm talking about cutting half of the Mg part off to make it about half as long. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

 

[jpalarchio]

Why is cutting them not an option? I'm talking about cutting half of the Mg part off to make it about half as long. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

I'd be curious if the rod is solid or not. The larger anode rods that I've seen in a water heater have had a regular steel core inside the magnesium rod. The way I understand it, the magnesium corrodes away over time as opposed to your water heater interior but I could be incorrect. In theory, replacing this rod once it corrodes extends your water heater life but I've yet to talk to anyone that has actually done this.

I've seen some larger anode rods that say they can be cut to length so perhaps some are solid. If so, and if this works for rusting, seems like someone could cut up a 48" rod into 1" pieces and thread the end for a nice compact solution.

 

[TRG]

It wont matter if you cut the anode and expose its steel core. As long as there is electrical continuity between the Mg and the steel, the Mg will preferentially corrode while the steel will stay rust free.

This image shows a new vs. old anode...

 

[bbognerks]

Furthermore, the Camco RV Mg anodes in this thread have the steel/aluminum core visible as soon as you get them anyways. Like they were cut from a bigger rod. Hasn't had any negative effects. Not that I ever thought it would cause a problem. Mg will corrode regardless what it's wrapped around, touching, etc... As long as there is an electrical connection to what it's protecting that is.

 

[jpalarchio]

I'm not even all that worried about the anode rod corroding away. I imagine we'd have to have quite a bit of contact time before there would even be the hint of corrosion.

I'm still in the process of converting over to electric but I'm curious to see where this goes. If it works (and doesn't poison us in the process), I could see cutting up some anode rods to thread into a 1/2" FPT half coupler.

 

[kal]

I'm not even all that worried about the anode rod corroding away. I imagine we'd have to have quite a bit of contact time before there would even be the hint of corrosion.

Yup. I doubt you'd ever see anything.

A hot water tank's full of water 24/7. For someone who brews a lot, the HLT may see 4-5 hours of us probably ever 2 weeks.

If you do the math, that's 67 times less. So if the anode lasts 5-10 years in a regular hot water tank, that's 335-670 years of brewing before you'll notice anything.

I'm still in the process of converting over to electric but I'm curious to see where this goes. If it works (and doesn't poison us in the process), I could see cutting up some anode rods to thread into a 1/2" FPT half coupler.

The anode is magnesium. Many of us add extra magnesium in the form of brewing salts. Some here have also sent off before & after boil samples of water to Ward Labs for analysis and there was no difference in terms of Mg or other salts.

Kal

 

[WAORGANY]

... that's 335-670 years of brewing... Kal

We only wish we had that much time on our hands!!!

 

[MartyStone]

This may be obvious to most, but why not just use a stainless steel heating element?

 

[samc]

It's the base of the element that rusts and most of them are not SS even if the element itself is.

 

[bbognerks]

You'd be surprised to know that you can indeed see corrosion on the rod. I've been using mine for about a year and it's noticeable. It also tends to flake off towards the bottom while water is sitting in it. Granted, it will still probably last at least 5-10 years, but you can see it corroding. I think the corrosion is sped up due to the fact that it isn't submerged 24/7. Pure speculation, but I think the wetting and drying repeatedly causes it to corrode faster. I can take a pic of mine after 1 year of use if anyone is interested.

To back up Kal on the Ward labs analysis, I actually did send it off and you can find that info earlier in this thread. The Mg anode does not increase the levels at all. The Mg level increase is proportionate to all the other solids due to the evaporation/concentration during a 1 hour boil.

 

[DustBow]

The anode is magnesium. Many of us add extra magnesium in the form of brewing salts. Some here have also sent off before & after boil samples of water to Ward Labs for analysis and there was no difference in terms of Mg or other salts.

Kal

Does that mean adding enough Magnesium in the form of brewing salts would be enough to act as an anode? Or would that just take way too much salt?

I'm curious about all of this - I'm debating switching over to electric and the possible rust issues on the element is one of the biggest concerns I have. I don't want to be scrubbing off rust after every brew and/or removing the element all the time for cleaning/scrubbing/rust removal.

It's just weird how some people have issues and other people don't, even though most of the key equipment (brand/type of element) is the same.
My buddy has rust issues which is what makes me nervous....tho we are on different water systems so that could make a difference....

I guess you just can't know for sure until you build your kettle and get a couple batches under your belt and see what happens?

 

[bbognerks]

Does that mean adding enough Magnesium in the form of brewing salts would be enough to act as an anode? Or would that just take way too much salt?

No, that won't work.

I'm curious about all of this - I'm debating switching over to electric and the possible rust issues on the element is one of the biggest concerns I have. I don't want to be scrubbing off rust after every brew and/or removing the element all the time for cleaning/scrubbing/rust removal.

It's just weird how some people have issues and other people don't, even though most of the key equipment (brand/type of element) is the same.
My buddy has rust issues which is what makes me nervous....tho we are on different water systems so that could make a difference....

I guess you just can't know for sure until you build your kettle and get a couple batches under your belt and see what happens?

If you are concerned about possibly having rust, spend the extra $20 on fittings and an anode and do it right. Why worry about it? Just prevent it. Adding an anode has no ill effects and it mostly guarantees you won't have rust... In the grand scheme of things, if you are going electric, $20 isn't going to break the budget.

 

[DustBow]

I agree - do it once, do it right.
Just trying to figure out how many weldess/welded points I'm going to need....might as well just add one for the anode and be done with it.
The elements with the anode attached are interesting, but maybe not worth messing with if we don't have much/any experience or feedback with them

 

[abarnett]

I wonder how many of the people without the rust problem are using aluminum pots? Wouldn't the aluminum do the same thing as the magnesium since it's almost as good of an anode?

 

[bbognerks]

An aluminum pot probably works due to the sheer surface area of it and less electrical resistance from connections and dissimilar metals. I can definitely say an aluminum anode doesn't work in a SS converted keg with my water.

 

[bbognerks]

The elements with the anode attached are interesting, but maybe not worth messing with if we don't have much/any experience or feedback with them

Considering I couldn't find a 5500 watt version easily, I'll stick with a separate anode. Even the 4500 watt I only found in a couple places. I'd rather have something I can easily replace if needed.

 

[gunner65]

My ULWD Camco rusted after the first use only. Never saw anymore I cannot imagine that a sacrificial will do anything over this short of a use the element base is still going to rust even with the sacrificial installed. They are designed for water heaters with water stored long term. The question on my mind is: what are the effects (if any) of such a small amount of iron in your wort?

 

[bbognerks]

My ULWD Camco rusted after the first use only. Never saw anymore I cannot imagine that a sacrificial will do anything over this short of a use the element base is still going to rust even with the sacrificial installed. They are designed for water heaters with water stored long term. The question on my mind is: what are the effects (if any) of such a small amount of iron in your wort?

There is likely no ill effect. Iron is needed for the body. My concern was with having a rust/metallic taste in light beers.

As for the anode not doing anything, you are completely wrong. My element base does not rust at all after installing it. Did you even read my original post? Before installing it, I had rust running down the side of my keggle it was rusting so bad.

 

[gunner65]

Not arguing that your problem went away just do not know if it was the sacrificial element or that the element just stopped rusting as much after the first few times of use. Like when I said my element bled rust down my keggle the first time but never again.

 

[kal]

FWIW not everyone has rust either. I don't.

Kal

 

[bbognerks]

I think it has a lot to do with water chemistry and equipment. I have relatively high pH water(8.5) from the tap. So I imagine that makes the rust problem more severe in my case. People with more normal water or slightly acidic water probably don't notice it as much.

In my case, no matter what I did, I kept getting more rust streaks. If I didn't take BKF to the streak, it just got longer and longer each time I used the kettle. Since adding the anode, my element base looks like new still. No rust at all. Just my experience.

 

[kal]

I think it's water hardness but I'm not a chemist. My water's very soft (alkalinity or CaC03 ppm of only 32) but the pH is high (over 9). No rust here.

Kal

 

[TRG]

I wonder how many of the people without the rust problem are using aluminum pots? Wouldn't the aluminum do the same thing as the magnesium since it's almost as good of an anode?

An aluminum pot probably works due to the sheer surface area of it and less electrical resistance from connections and dissimilar metals. I can definitely say an aluminum anode doesn't work in a SS converted keg with my water.

The problem here is if you've seasoned your aluminum pot properly, you've built up a serious oxide layer on the surface and have thus passivated the aluminum available to the solution which will stop its protecting the iron in the element!

 

[tre9er]

Curious, then...what is the solution for aluminum pot users if they start to experience rust at the base of their element? I'm converting to electric soon and would like to know.

 

[shroomzofdoom]

Not sure if my experience is anecdotal or what...but I had pretty bad rust on my element bases after my first few wet tests.


While ordering the anode, I decided to use a 1/2 drop of olive oil on a paper towel to wipe the base plates after cleaning. I did this maybe 3-4 times and haven't had rust or needed to install the anode, I've brewed about 8 batches on it and haven't needed to reapply oil.

Not sure what happened but when I worked in restaurants we'd put a thin film of oil over freshly cleaned griddles and this kept them from oxidzing. YMMV, but I am going to test this a bit further when I build a few more electric keggles in a few weeks.

 

[CidahMastah]

I am considering doing this with my next HLT. However I can't get this voice out of my head that keeps saying to me "who cares if a little rust is present". I hasn't impacted any brews (flavor wise), anything that falls out will likely not make it to the fermenter since I leave behind some hot break and hops in the BK. Not to mention that it will definitely fall into the trub and never make it into your glass.

Am I crazy here? Just wondering if I really should be drilling another hole in the pot for a weldless fitting type set up.

My water pretty much matches up with the dublin style from my well, so it is quite hard and loaded with calcium.

 

[aquenne]

I am considering doing this with my next HLT. However I can't get this voice out of my head that keeps saying to me "who cares if a little rust is present". I hasn't impacted any brews (flavor wise), anything that falls out will likely not make it to the fermenter since I leave behind some hot break and hops in the BK. Not to mention that it will definitely fall into the trub and never make it into your glass.

Am I crazy here? Just wondering if I really should be drilling another hole in the pot for a weldless fitting type set up.

My water pretty much matches up with the dublin style from my well, so it is quite hard and loaded with calcium.

I basically echo your feelings.

One thing you could try is just dabbing a bit of cooking oil on the element face after you clean it. it has basically stopped the rust from re-occuring for me.