eBIAB experiences?

[Maggot1980]

I recently got a refurbished Brewtools B80 Pro and finally got everything setup last night for the first cleaning. I filled it up to about 8 gallons of water, just past the elements. I think it took about two hours for the water to heat up to 150 to dissolve the PBW. It took me way longer than I'd like to admit on how all the valves work. Coming from a two-tier 3-vessal system this is a bit more complex. I think my main question is, if you have one of these systems, how long does it normally take to heat up your strike and then to boil? I have both elements on dedicated 20-amp circuits, which I thought was enough.

Side note, I was hoping to break it in on Sunday with a split batched brew, but MoreBeer won't get me my new chiller in time. My old z-chiller formed a 1" fracture on one of the bends while in storage. I tried to solder it but it still leaks. That worried me about any leaks in the inner copper.

 

[doug293cz]

Operating at 120V, you will have slow heating. There just isn't enough power available from a 20A 120V circuit to heat 5+ gal of water quickly. That's why many e-brewers go with 240V 30A or 50A circuits - they have more than 6X the power available for heating.

Brew on

 

[Maggot1980]

Operating at 120V, you will have slow heating. There just isn't enough power available from a 20A 120V circuit to heat 5+ gal of water quickly. That's why many e-brewers go with 240V 30A or 50A circuits - they have more than 6X the power available for heating.

Brew on

So, sounds like I underpowered it. I guess the question is do I go 50-amp circuits for both, or 30-amp circuits for them? My electrical box is only about 6' or less from where I'm brewing, so not concerned with running the line or the outlets being far from the brewing.

 

[doug293cz]

If your heating elements are only rated for 120V, then you shouldn't hook them up to 240V, as it will likely damage the elements. You can safely connect 240V rated elements to 120V, but you will only get 1/4 of the rated power.

What are your heating elements rated for? Voltage and wattage.

Brew on

 

[Maggot1980]

It is a Brewtools B80 Pro system, they are:

• Heating elements: 230V, 6000W (2x3000W)

 

[doug293cz]

If your heating elements are only rated for 120V, then you shouldn't hook them up to 240V, as it will likely damage the elements. You can safely connect 240V rated elements to 120V, but you will only get 1/4 of the rated power.

What are your heating elements rated for? Voltage and wattage.

Brew on

Ok, some quick Googling shows that your elements are rated at 3kW each at 230V. Since P = V^2 / R, then R = V^2 / P, so the resistance of each element is:

R = 230^2 / 3000 = 17.63 ohms​

​

Since V = I * R, I = V / R, and at 240V your elements would each draw:

I = 240 / 17.63 = 13.6A​

​

and your power at 240V vs. 230V would be:​

​

P = 240^2 / 17.63 = 3267W​

​

at 120V your power for each element is only:​

​

P = 120^2 / 17.63 = 817W​

​

So, you could power both of them from one 30A circuit, as long as you didn't run at full power more than a couple of hours. But, your system also has a pump, and running it with both elements on, might cause issues. A single 50A circuit would be a better choice.

Brew on

 

[Maggot1980]

Ok, some quick Googling shows that your elements are rated at 3kW each at 230V. Since P = V^2 / R, then R = V^2 / P, so the resistance of each element is:

R = 230^2 / 3000 = 17.63 ohms​

​

Since V = I * R, I = V / R, and at 240V your elements would each draw:

I = 240 / 17.63 = 13.6A​

​

and your power at 240V vs. 230V would be:​

​

P = 240^2 / 17.63 = 3267W​

​

at 120V your power for each element is only:​

​

P = 120^2 / 17.63 = 817W​

​

So, you could power both of them from one 30A circuit, as long as you didn't run at full power more than a couple of hours. But, your system also has a pump, and running it with both elements on, might cause issues. A single 50A circuit would be a better choice.

Brew on

Okay, that gives me the info I need for the wire and breaker, but for the outlet, I'm a little trumped. It's this weird plug. This is what I have currently.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BQKWAQ?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title&th=1
I've been searching for one that is 30-amp or higher and I'm not seeing them.

 

[doug293cz]

Okay, that gives me the info I need for the wire and breaker, but for the outlet, I'm a little trumped. It's this weird plug. This is what I have currently.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BQKWAQ?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title&th=1
I've been searching for one that is 30-amp or higher and I'm not seeing them.

Since this unit was initially designed for European use, it does not require the use of a neutral wire, just hot, hot, ground. So, you can use NEMA 6-30 (30A), NEMA 6-50 (50A), NEMA 10-30, NEMA 10-50 (previous two are old style dryer and range plugs/receptacles), or for more flexibility, include both ground and neutral by using NEMA 14-30 or NEMA 14-50. Be sure that the breaker you install for the circuit is GFCI protected.

Brew on

 

[InspectorJon]

Since this unit was initially designed for European use, it does not require the use of a neutral wire, just hot, hot, ground.

I recently got a refurbished Brewtools B80 Pro

Did you get this refurbished equipment from the manufacturer? They should provide all the installation specifications and instructions you need. I am not acquainted with 240 volt wiring for electronics so I don’t know about the neutral requirements.

If you didn’t get installation instructions when you purchased the equipment I recommend reaching out to the manufacturer. Manufacturers are typically pretty good about providing that kind of information. It is often posted on their website. Like this. If their documents don’t answer your questions you should contact them directly.

From their website:
“230V, 6000W (2x3000W) (two individual circuits)”

Looks to me like you need 2 separate receptacles to plug it into assuming that you have the 230 volt model. Here in the USA we have 240 volts, which changes the math slightly. They would not sell them here if that made a functional difference.

 

[Maggot1980]

Did you get this refurbished equipment from the manufacturer? They should provide all the installation specifications and instructions you need. I am not acquainted with 240 volt wiring for electronics so I don’t know about the neutral requirements.

If you didn’t get installation instructions when you purchased the equipment I recommend reaching out to the manufacturer. Manufacturers are typically pretty good about providing that kind of information. It is often posted on their website. Like this. If their documents don’t answer your questions you should contact them directly.

From their website:
“230V, 6000W (2x3000W) (two individual circuits)”

Looks to me like you need 2 separate receptacles to plug it into assuming that you have the 230 volt model. Here in the USA we have 240 volts, which changes the math slightly. They would not sell them here if that made a functional difference.

It was refurbished from MoreBeer!. There wasn't any documentation with it, just a QR code that sends you to the linked site. I do currently have 2-20amp circuits for each plug.

 

[rlrohan]

The picture of the box looks like it was added on diy. Nothing wrong with that but is it right? What is the actual voltages at each outlet? Is it the correct voltage for the unit per manufacturer instructions? The reason I ask this is because I keep seeing you refer to outlet amperage. You can have a 20 amp 110 volt circuit or a 20 amp 220 volt circuit, depending upon how it was wired.
I see the picture shows 220 volt outlets but are they actually wired up for 220v?

 

[InspectorJon]

Just to be clear. We nominally have 120 and 240 volts supplied in the USA. 110 and 220 are historical hold over terms. Probably a technicality not worth arguing over. It does make some difference in the math calculations. If the OP is running his system on 120 volts, then the 20 amp receptacles are incorrect. 3000 watts divided by 120 volts is 25 amps minimum. That would overdraw both the 20 amp outlets and the 12/2 supply wires. If it is 240 volts then the amperage drops to 12.5 and the receptacle and wire ratings are fine.

Weather Romex type wire should be used as extension cord material is a separate discussion.

 

[mac_1103]

If the OP is running his system on 120 volts, then the 20 amp receptacles are incorrect. 3000 watts divided by 120 volts is 25 amps minimum. That would overdraw both the 20 amp outlets and the 12/2 supply wires.

OK now you've confused me. If he's running at 120 volts, how does he get 3000 watts out of each element?

Weather Romex type wire should be used as extension cord material is a separate discussion.

Did I miss something? I thought those 12-2 wires came straight from the panel.

 

[Maggot1980]

OK now you've confused me. If he's running at 120 volts, how does he get 3000 watts out of each element?

Did I miss something? I thought those 12-2 wires came straight from the panel.

Yes, those 12-2 wires are going straight to the panel. They are only 120v. I've ordered a new 240v breaker, wires, and outlet to get the voltage up.

 

[rlrohan]

Just to be clear. We nominally have 120 and 240 volts supplied in the USA. 110 and 220 are historical hold over terms. Probably a technicality not worth arguing over. It does make some difference in the math calculations. If the OP is running his system on 120 volts, then the 20 amp receptacles are incorrect. 3000 watts divided by 120 volts is 25 amps minimum. That would overdraw both the 20 amp outlets and the 12/2 supply wires. If it is 240 volts then the amperage drops to 12.5 and the receptacle and wire ratings are fine.

Weather Romex type wire should be used as extension cord material is a separate discussion.

Yeah, I’m an old guy. We talked 110 and 220, but I guess the outlets are wired wrong?

 

[doug293cz]

OK now you've confused me. If he's running at 120 volts, how does he get 3000 watts out of each element?

You don't. The elements will only provide 3000W if powered from a 230V source. I went thru the math of what happens if you run them on other voltages in this post.

Brew on

 

[mac_1103]

I went thru the math of what happens if you run them on other voltages in this post.

Yeah, I saw that. It was kind of a rhetorical question.

 

[InspectorJon]

OK now you've confused me. If he's running at 120 volts, how does he get 3000 watts out of each element?

I got confused too… @doug293cz is better at math than me.

Did I miss something? I thought those 12-2 wires came straight from the panel.

Many would view it as a technicality. Romex type wire is supposed to be protected, as in behind drywall or something like that. It is not rated for exposed applications like pictured. I’m sure I would never do anything like that.

 

[mac_1103]

Romex type wire is supposed to be protected, as in behind drywall or something like that.

I guess I never knew that. But I'd wager that there is exposed Romex in half of the basements and attics in America, or maybe more.

 

[InspectorJon]

Nonmetallic sheathed cable (Romex is a brand name) doesn’t require protection where it is not directly accessible. It is kind of a judgment call for code enforcement inspectors. Protection in unoccupied spaces like an unfinished attic or basement is often not asked for by inspectors. Around here they typically use the 7 foot rule for spaces like garages and basements. Any anything above 7 feet is not considered accessible. I think protection for Romex is enforced differently in various parts of the country. Clearly protection is not required in crawl spaces or low, unoccupied attics.

 

[Maggot1980]

Ok, some quick Googling shows that your elements are rated at 3kW each at 230V. Since P = V^2 / R, then R = V^2 / P, so the resistance of each element is:

R = 230^2 / 3000 = 17.63 ohms​

​

Since V = I * R, I = V / R, and at 240V your elements would each draw:

I = 240 / 17.63 = 13.6A​

​

and your power at 240V vs. 230V would be:​

​

P = 240^2 / 17.63 = 3267W​

​

at 120V your power for each element is only:​

​

P = 120^2 / 17.63 = 817W​

​

So, you could power both of them from one 30A circuit, as long as you didn't run at full power more than a couple of hours. But, your system also has a pump, and running it with both elements on, might cause issues. A single 50A circuit would be a better choice.

Brew on

This got me where I think I needed to be. I swaped out the single pole 20-amp breakers for two double pole 20-amp GFCI. I had about 15 gallons of water in the system that was 61 degrees, In about ten minutes it was at 90. I think I'm good with.

 

[rlrohan]

This got me where I think I needed to be. I swaped out the single pole 20-amp breakers for two double pole 20-amp GFCI. I had about 15 gallons of water in the system that was 61 degrees, In about ten minutes it was at 90. I think I'm good with.

Good to know there is some improvement in the heating. Just to be clear on how you reached this improvement, Are the outlets now at 240 volts? If so then supplying the correct voltage got you there.

 

[Maggot1980]

Good to know there is some improvement in the heating. Just to be clear on how you reached this improvement, Are the outlets now at 240 volts? If so then supplying the correct voltage got you there.

Yes, the outlets are 250v 20-amp outlets, they were only single pole before, so only 120v. Huge difference in price; I think the breakers I had before were $5-10 each, these were $120 each. This is a pricey system to get set up.

 

[rlrohan]

Yes, the outlets are 250v 20-amp outlets, they were only single pole before, so only 120v. Huge difference in price; I think the breakers I had before were $5-10 each, these were $120 each. This is a pricey system to get set up.

 

[rlrohan]

Glad it’s setup and going. Happy brewing.

 

[hotbeer]

these were $120 each

If that was what the electrician charged, then that's fair. But if you bought and installed these yourself, then that's a lot. Either you got more breaker than you need, or you have a service panel that only uses expensive breakers.

I'm pretty sure I only paid $18 for mine.

 

[mac_1103]

I'm pretty sure I only paid $18 for mine

For dual pole GFCI?

 

[Maggot1980]

If that was what the electrician charged, then that's fair. But if you bought and installed these yourself, then that's a lot. Either you got more breaker than you need, or you have a service panel that only uses expensive breakers.

I'm pretty sure I only paid $18 for mine.

 

[Maggot1980]

I searched online and the cheapest I found was $120 from Lowes, so I went there last night. No electrician, I did it myself, as is clear by the lack of conduit. It's an unfinished basement, so I can go back later and clean it up more if it bothers me. I think you could get a duel pole 20-amp for 18 bucks, but one with GFCI. Since the outlets aren't GFCI I had to make the entire circuit protected.

 

[hotbeer]

For dual pole GFCI?

You have a point there. At the time I installed it, I think the inspectors here were still going by the 2017 code. I'll have to look and see if they are going by the newer code that's out.

 

[doug293cz]

I searched online and the cheapest I found was $120 from Lowes, so I went there last night. No electrician, I did it myself, as is clear by the lack of conduit. It's an unfinished basement, so I can go back later and clean it up more if it bothers me. I think you could get a duel pole 20-amp for 18 bucks, but one with GFCI. Since the outlets aren't GFCI I had to make the entire circuit protected.

The highlighted breaker on the left is definitely a 30A breaker, and the one on the right might be, but can't read the numbers on the toggles. What wire gauge did you use with these breakers? Code requires 10AWG for 30A circuits, but in the photo, the wires look like they might be finer gauge.

Brew on

 

[Maggot1980]

The highlighted breaker on the left is definitely a 30A breaker, and the one on the right might be, but can't read the numbers on the toggles. What wire gauge did you use with these breakers? Code requires 10AWG for 30A circuits, but in the photo, the wires look like they might be finer gauge.

Brew on

One of them is 20-amp, the other is 30-amp. Lowes only had one of the 20 and they were the same price. They are 12/2 wires. The system only pulls 16amps max, so it will never be near the power needs or a full 30-amp draw, and those circuits are dedicated to the two brewery plugs. If I have to upgrade the system at some point I'll upgrade the gauge, but honestly, how much this thing is costing me before a single batch, I'll be brewing on this system until my last breath. Good eye though.

 

[hotbeer]

Breakers can't be any more than the circuit cabling can handle.

I might have pushed some interpretation limits of even the 2017 code by using a non-GFCI for my countertop burner. Though from the start, it's been my intention to remove that circuit when I remodel the kitchen fully, which is underway at this moment. Though progress isn't going as fast as my wife would like!

 

[DavidWood2115]

The outlets shown in post #10 above are NEMA 6-20. These should be wired to 240v (not 120 as they were originally) and protected by a 20A breaker (not a 30A breaker).

 

[shoengine]

Breakers can't be any more than the circuit cabling can handle.

I might have pushed some interpretation limits of even the 2017 code by using a non-GFCI for my countertop burner. Though from the start, it's been my intention to remove that circuit when I remodel the kitchen fully, which is underway at this moment. Though progress isn't going as fast as my wife would like!

Oy, have fun with that. I went from four circuits in the kitchen to eight when I remodeled, which was the bare minimum to meet code.

 

[Ninoid]

My BIAB brewing pot has a 2000W electric heater and I am pleased with both the heating speed and the boil.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I plop a 10-gallon pot over two stove burners and let her rip.

 

[Kickass]

I plop a 10-gallon pot over two stove burners and let her rip.

I used to do that. Then I went eBIAB (with a very brief detour in 3v propane) and I haven’t looked back.