Electric Question

[caskconditioned]

Wow! Incredible. Will you build me one please I'm planning on doing a very similar build (BCS, etc) so finding your thread is a huge score for me.

Electrical newbie question: Why 2 SSRs for one 5500W element?

 

[Brewmoor]

Wow! Incredible. Will you build me one please I'm planning on doing a very similar build (BCS, etc) so finding your thread is a huge score for me.

Electrical newbie question: Why 2 SSRs for one 5500W element?

In my setup I use two SSR for safety. 1 is wired to a switch on my control panel so I can turn off power to element. The other is wired to my PWM to control the element.

SO, 1 ssr for each leg. It has come in handy. I have already had a bad SSR. The one attached to the PWM failed in the ON position while I was brewing. I was able to control the element with the switch manually. It was a PITA but it saved my brewday. In an emergency too, it allows you to shut down the element.

 

[caskconditioned]

In my setup I use two SSR for safety. 1 is wired to a switch on my control panel so I can turn off power to element. The other is wired to my PWM to control the element.

SO, 1 ssr for each leg. It has come in handy. I have already had a bad SSR. The one attached to the PWM failed in the ON position while I was brewing. I was able to control the element with the switch manually. It was a PITA but it saved my brewday. In an emergency too, it allows you to shut down the element.

Thanks, that makes sense. So looking at Ed's control panel, the On | Auto | Off switch is using one SSR for the ON, one SSR for the Auto (BCS), and then the Off kills power to both. Is that correct?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

No. The two SSRs are used to individually control the two out-of-phase 120VAC lines going to the element. If you only switch one leg, the other leg would still be hot. As long as nothing bad happens it would work fine, but if any weird grounding or corrosion (etc) occurs, it is possible to direct 120VAC through the element and into the system unintentionally.

It is a safety measure, but one that should absolutely be taken IMO.

The two SSRs are logically parallel, so if one switches the other does as well. They are controlled by the same source.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

No. The two SSRs are used to individually control the two out-of-phase 120VAC lines going to the element. If you only switch one leg, the other leg would still be hot. As long as nothing bad happens it would work fine, but if any weird grounding or corrosion (etc) occurs, it is possible to direct 120VAC through the element and into the system unintentionally.

It is a safety measure, but one that should absolutely be taken IMO.

The two SSRs are logically parallel, so if one switches the other does as well. They are controlled by the same source.

Right on the money, BK.

Also, my switches are in the low voltage "Control" lines of the SSR's.
The BCS has a terminal that provides constant +5vdc and each BCS Output has a +5vdc terminal. So my switches determine which (or none) of the BCS terminals drive the SSR's contol voltage.

Hope that makes sence.

Ed

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Wow! Incredible. Will you build me one please I'm planning on doing a very similar build (BCS, etc) so finding your thread is a huge score for me.

Electrical newbie question: Why 2 SSRs for one 5500W element?

For the right money I could probably hook you up with my prototype.
.
.
.
Just kidding... it no longer exists.
But there are a lot of parts that I will eventually put in the classified section when I get time.


Ed

 

[caskconditioned]

I clearly have a lot to learn :cross: I'm going to spend some time re-reading this entire thread. Electricity scares the hell out of me so I'm not going to do anything w/o a licensed electrician. I may have to bribe some of you experts a little later on for some assistance though. Cheers!

 

[caskconditioned]

But there are a lot of parts that I will eventually put in the classified section when I get time.Ed

Feel free to PM me when you are ready and I can save you the effort of listing them On page 8 of this thread (re-read), so have a ways to go before hitting you up with a million questions (kidding).

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Feel free to PM me when you are ready and I can save you the effort of listing them On page 8 of this thread (re-read), so have a ways to go before hitting you up with a million questions (kidding).

I'm fairly mechanically inclined and have a basic knowledge of electricity.

If you are in the same boat, my suggestion is this: Do the design yourself. Don't copy mine or anyone else's. Not that I mind you using it (your are welcome to it), but rather so you understand it 100%. I was forced to learn a lot of stuff and it took many iterations (as you can see by reading this thread), but it's a good feeling to know it's mine. If it breaks, or mis-behaves, I know how to troubleshoot it and fix it. I give CodeRage huge accolades for the time he spent... I'm sure he could have just drew it up and handed it over in one tenth the time he spent. Instead, he "forced" me to "learn to fish". If this is the direction you're heading, you need to learn to communicate with the right people in their language. Find a drawing tool (I used MS Viso) and learn the electrical symbols for the devices you need. It can be a bit frustrating... the response to many questions, is more questions. In my case, I realized that just means my design/options were not as black and white as I thought, so back to the books(web).

I'm happy to help as far as my experience and knowledge goes.

 

[caskconditioned]

Thank you Ed. I agree, I need to learn all this vs. having someone just tell me what to do. Having your build as a starting point will definitely help me learn all this faster. I also have some slightly different requirements so knowing how it all works will help me make the necessary changes.

 

[DiNap44]

Just stumbled across this thread and all I can say is WOW! This is exactly the type of info I was looking for.
Great job Ed and thanks for sharing your project.
And also a thanks to CodeRage for all the tech support.

 

[EuBrew]

Awesome work Ed!

I'm getting ready to build a Brewtroller rig myself so I've been trolling as much as I can to learn from the masters

I've looked at your diagram and your panel and I'm having a hard time figuring out where all the breakers go. Here's what I think I see

30A DP breaker = 5500 watt element 1
30A DP breaker = 5500 watt element 2
20A SP breaker = 1500 watt RIMS element
2A breaker =pump 1
2A breaker =pump 2
2A breaker =BCS power supply??
5A breaker =EMPTY???
10A breaker =????? something connected

I'm missing something here, can you help out the moron (me) here?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Awesome work Ed!

I'm getting ready to build a Brewtroller rig myself so I've been trolling as much as I can to learn from the masters

I've looked at your diagram and your panel and I'm having a hard time figuring out where all the breakers go. Here's what I think I see

30A DP breaker = 5500 watt element 1
30A DP breaker = 5500 watt element 2
20A SP breaker = 1500 watt RIMS element
2A breaker =pump 1
2A breaker =pump 2
2A breaker =BCS power supply??
5A breaker =EMPTY???
10A breaker =????? something connected

I'm missing something here, can you help out the moron (me) here?

Thanks.

Here is where the breakers go and their relationship to the drawings:

30A DP breaker = 5500 watt element 1 (f2 & f3)
30A DP breaker = 5500 watt element 2 (f4 & f5)
20A SP breaker = 1500 watt RIMS element (f6)
2A breaker =pump 1 (f7)
2A breaker =pump 2 (f8)


You were correct on the above, here is the rest:

2A breaker =BCS power supply and E-Stop Circuit (I combined f1 & f10 in front of the contactor)
0.5A (not 5a) breaker = BCS +5vdc output (f9 - not wired in the photo)
10A breaker = Auxiliary Receptacle (I have a Wireless bridge plugged in) This breaker is not in the drawing.

Hope that helps.

Ed

 

[EuBrew]

Yep, now I just need to figure out what breaker sizes I need for the brewtroller 12V 3A power supply (guessing 5A) and if the 16 output relay board for my valves needs a breaker as well. I wish this was as easy for me as wiring my house was, passed inspection first time without near the reading I've done on this already!!

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Yep, now I just need to figure out what breaker sizes I need for the brewtroller 12V 3A power supply (guessing 5A) and if the 16 output relay board for my valves needs a breaker as well. I wish this was as easy for me as wiring my house was, passed inspection first time without near the reading I've done on this already!!

I did not fuse each output of the BCS.

The BCS has a +5vdc output that is constant and not "controlled" by the BCS. I used it to feed power to all the SSR's when switched to the manual mode. This is the only output of the BCS I fused.

Good luck,

Ed

 

[pickles]

Eubrew - 5A is fine for the power supply and it should be placed on the power supply's 120V supply. You should use an appropriately sized fuse protect any 120V (or 240v) piece of equipment your using. The fuses protect the devices from over current surges. Are your valves line voltage or low voltage? You can do as Ohio-Ed said and use one fuse to protect all of the valves from a spike over their rated max amp.

 

[EuBrew]

Thanks fellas! I really should start my own thread here (sorry to hijack Ed). I will start one here in a bit once all my stuff gets here and I start building.


I'll be using the following
30A DP breakers for my 2 (one each) 5500 watt elements
20A DP breaker for my 3500 watt element
2A SP breakers for my pumps
5A SP breaker for brewtroller power supply
not sure about the 16 output relay board yet for protecting valves etc.
Valves will be the ones in the BT store unless it takes me long enough to get to building that jcdillin has gotten the 3 way valves sourced, then it's up in the air. I'm guessing they will be 12V DC like the valves in the store.
Also up in the air are my stir motors for the HEX and the HLT.
still have some research to do.

Thanks again for the input!

 

[ClaudiusB]

And the finished box:

What a very well executed project

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

 

[sco999]

OhioEd,
Thanks for this amazing thread!! Thanks to all who have contributed.
I am in the process of purchasing components for my E-Brewery. I am using 5500 watts in the BK, 5500 watts in the HLT, and 1500 watts in the RIMS all elements are 240vac to keep me on a 40 amp circuit. I have a few questions.

1) Will a 3 pole 10amp 120vac Ice cube relay work instead of the 2 Pole for the E-stop?

2) What contactors does the 2 position selector switch need? 1NO & 1NC?

3) What curve breakers are you using? B for the elements and D for the rest?

4) Would a 1 amp breaker work for F9?

5) Do you have a link for your terminal blocks? Do they require jumpers, or do they direct contact each other and need to be terminated with end plates?

6) What size enclosure should I look for? 12"x12"x6" or 16"x12"x6"? I will be utilizing din rails, but I will have 8 ssr's due to my Rims Element being 240vac.


Thanks,

 

[Ohio-Ed]

OhioEd,
Thanks for this amazing thread!! Thanks to all who have contributed.
I am in the process of purchasing components for my E-Brewery. I am using 5500 watts in the BK, 5500 watts in the HLT, and 1500 watts in the RIMS all elements are 240vac to keep me on a 40 amp circuit. I have a few questions.

1) Will a 3 pole 10amp 120vac Ice cube relay work instead of the 2 Pole for the E-stop?
Sure, just leave the 3rd pole empty. Here is the Relay and Socket I used:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc.../5A_Electro-Mechanical_Cube_Relays/QM2N1-A120
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...-_Timers/Relay_Sockets_-a-_Accessories/SQM08D


2) What contactors does the 2 position selector switch need? 1NO & 1NC?
Yes, 1 NO and 1 NC

3) What curve breakers are you using? B for the elements and D for the rest?
Actually, I bought based on what was on-hand at the time I ordered which was are all C Curve except the 30amp double poles which are B Curve. They all came from AutomationDirect.


4) Would a 1 amp breaker work for F9?
F9 is intended to protect the BCS. The max current on the +5vdc is 300mA, so really the fuse should be less than 300mA. I ended up with a .5a breaker, because it was what I could find...not 100% sure it would really save the BCS.

5) Do you have a link for your terminal blocks? Do they require jumpers, or do they direct contact each other and need to be terminated with end plates?
The terminal blocks came from Mouser.com. I used a variety of sizes. They do require a jumper bar if you need to connect them. The jumpers come in various sizes, you "can" buy longer ones and cut them down as needed if you don't know exactly what you need.
I downloaded a PDF of the Manufacturers Terminal blocks & accessories and hunted down the sizes and pieces I needed.
Here is a link to one of the terminal blocks...
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=CTS10Uvirtualkey56110000virtualkey845-CTS10U


6) What size enclosure should I look for? 12"x12"x6" or 16"x12"x6"? I will be utilizing din rails, but I will have 8 ssr's due to my Rims Element being 240vac.
I think you could accommodate what I have in a 16"x12"x6" square box but size will depend on what devices you need to mount... There are no Timers, displays, or PID's on my panel so I actually had plenty of real estate on the front panel. The back with all the SSR's and connectors was quite tight. Also, the slant top on my box made mounting components close to the front challenging.

Thanks,

I hope that helps...

Ed

 

[sco999]

OhioEd,
Thanks for answering my questions. I have a couple more.

1) How did you attach the BCS-460 to your DIN rail?

2) Where did you get the white 110vac female DIN rail mounted receptacle?



Thanks,
Sco999

 

[Ohio-Ed]

OhioEd,
Thanks for answering my questions. I have a couple more.

1) How did you attach the BCS-460 to your DIN rail?
I took the front cover off the BCS, drilled a hole in it and screwed it to a DIN mount clip.

2) Where did you get the white 110vac female DIN rail mounted receptacle?
Ha... well, it is actually just a cheap 2 prong cord receptacle that I tywrap'ed to a DIN mount clip. I bought a DIN mount recptacle from AutomationDirect, but it just took up too much space so I removed it.

Thanks,
Sco999

You're welcome...

Ed

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

If you need a place to put that DIN rail mount receptacle, I might have a home for it... I'm just saying...

 

[CodeRage]

Hey Ed, haven't been around much lately. Wanted to give some kudos and say the control panel looks beautiful. Good job bud.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Hey Ed, haven't been around much lately. Wanted to give some kudos and say the control panel looks beautiful. Good job bud.

Thank you!

I feel like you are probably entitled to at least half of my panel (but don't come looking to collect).

Your absence hasn't gone unnoticed, hopefully all is good with you.

I saw in another thread you are about to go back to work on your rig... I can hardly wait to see what you end up with.

Ed

 

[EFaden]

Tagging this topic. I'm in awe of this thing.

 

[tjferris]

Could someone take a look at this please? I currently have a Gas Rig that runs off of Love controllers. After a year of having most of my stuff laying around I'm finally getting back to the build. Now i'm interested in having the option of running the rig with the PID controller OR BCS depending on what/where i'm brewing. Can someone take a look at my first two circuits and see if i'm on the right track? Or maybe offer up some suggestions if I should go a different route. Thanks!

 

[CodeRage]

Hah! HOA switches, awesome.


Is the love supposed to be a backup for the BCS automatic control? If so I would put a selector switch between the BCS and PID to gate control to the auto side of the HOA. Hand would strictly be a manual way of turning the element off and on.
There isnt anything wrong with doing the way you've designed it and will work just as well.

The only concern I would have is that those sparkers play hell on some controllers, including the BCS. I haven't heard of a solution or a successful implementation yet. Well, without having to move the controller clear across the room. RonRock is the last person I talked to about this and there was no solution that I know of. You may want to follow up with him and see if he found something.

good luck!

 

[tjferris]

Thanks for the reply!
My intent is to have the panel automated even on "manual" mode. When the switch is in the Hand position I want the Love controllers to handle the automation. This will be for times when i'm at a club event or don't have my laptop near by and want to brew soley via the control panel. Then in the "Auto" mode I want the BCS to run the system so I can play with the automation program or bang switches from my iphone .

I am a bit concerend with the comment you made about the spark ignition playing hell with the controller, what is the main issue people seem to be having? I'll have to do some searching and see what the problem is. If it helps, I plan on having the wires come off the SSR and actually go to another box under the stand that will house the spark ignition modules because there is a limit on how far from the spark ignition box the pilot's can be. So if the concern is having the ignition modules IN the control panel mine should be mounted in a box under the stand roughly 4 or 5 feet from the main panel.

 

[stevehaun]

Went back thru this build again. WOW! I followed as it unfolded but I am even more impressed as I look back at it. The DIN rail mounted components really kept it very neat.
Top shelf!