ebiab - Scorched a batch.... what to do next time?

[haeffnkr]

Hi,
I made a 11.5 gallon batch of Kolsch on Monday.
Towards the end I smelled it burn a bit, during the boil.

I finished it and pitched the yeast, took a sample today and will probably be throwing it all out tomorrow.

I have made about 10 batches so far on my ebiab setup, most where single or double ground mashes... I have burned 2 now. The first one was because the element dry fired cause the pump filled up the bag and I had air under my bag shelf/false bottom.
So I dont use my pump any more.
I am not sure what I did with this batch.

What I did do ...
I triple ground the grain (mistake?) (I used to do this all the time with my gas fired keggle and it worked fine...great efficiency)
I believe there was about 20 pounds of grain including 4 pounds of wheat.
Stirred by hand every 10-15 minutes or so
Mashed for an hour
Pulled the bag and let it rip
60 minute boil

I was cleaning up and usually scrub down the element and could see a thick layer of semi burnt/caked on trub completely covering the ripple element.
I clean as much as I could then got enough water in the kettle to cover the element and turned it on and more debris came off the element, then it was pretty clean.

I then made another 6.5 gallon batch of Munich Helles right after and I believe it is fine... have not tasted it yet.
I only ground it 2 times and I had my stir motor going first time with that batch.

So what to do next?
Grind once? That should help keep the trub down?
Stir motor should help keep things stirred up? I am pulling the water up - should I push it down or would it matter?
What can I do to keep the gunk off the element and not toss another batch?
Does Wheat stick more than other grain?

thanks for your help
Kevin

My setup can be seen here ... Note I have since changed out the element with a ULWD ripple element.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/first-run-ebiab-w-pics-410168/

 

[RM-MN]

Efficiency of the mash is related to the quality of the grind with the finer grind getting more sugars out of the grain. With that fine grind conversion is pretty quick so you don't need to mash for an hour. If your grain is stirred in well all the grain particles will be surrounded by water and you don't need to stir during the mash.

Your electric element will tend to scorch the wort much more than the gas flame because the heat is so concentrated that it boils the wort away from it letting it get much hotter than the bottom of the pot would with the gas flame. To avoid this you need to circulate the wort past it quickly or control the element so it heats slower.

 

[haeffnkr]

Is it more likely for the wort to burn with a single grind vs 2 or 3 times for the same mash time?

Does some grain like wheat burn easier than others?

 

[wilserbrewer]

Is it more likely for the wort to burn with a single grind vs 2 or 3 times for the same mash time?

A finer grind will put more flour in the grist and through the bag. What kind of bag are you using?

Does some grain like wheat burn easier than others?

Yes, others here have had problems with wheat.

I believe it might help to stir the wort several times when heating to boil to stir up the trub, as opposed to having the element sit in stagnant trub laden wort. Once you begin boiling, the wort is moving and the trub is less of a problem regarding burning.

Best to stir up the trub when heating to avoid a scorch. I scorched once when I took a "time out" during a brew session, I believe all the trub settled and then scorched when I re-powered without stirring.

 

[haeffnkr]

I am now using this bag
http://morebeer.com/products/mesh-bag-29in-drawstring.html

I wanted a courser weave bag when I was trying to use my pump, but now I am done with the pump...
I would think that a course bag would be good when I use my stir motor also to keep the water in and out of the bag moving.

I used to use a VERY tight weave bag when I gas fired and triple ground all my grain, but again, had to ditch that when I tried my pump...that bag was so tight it took forever to drain.
Anyway...

So sounds like I should grind once and keep my stir motor going from mash till boil?
I will mash again for 60 minutes with the single grind.
Anything else to try?(
( I basically did this a few times before, that is grind once and stir by hand a bit and it turned out OK)

thanks for the help
Kevin

 

[cgherrington3]

How are you controlling the boil?

 

[haeffnkr]

How are you controlling the boil?

PID

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/first-run-ebiab-w-pics-410168/

thanks Kevin

 

[cgherrington3]

Hey Kevin, Having burnt 2 batches myself I feel your pain. I assume that you're running less than 100% on the boil. If not, then you need to work on that.

The other issue is it looks like your direct firing the mash. I don't have any experience with that, but from what I've read on here, not many have been successful with that and burn the wort. I think they go to a RIMS or HERMS. I don't know anything about those.

 

[haeffnkr]

Hey Kevin, Having burnt 2 batches myself I feel your pain. I assume that you're running less than 100% on the boil. If not, then you need to work on that.

The other issue is it looks like your direct firing the mash. I don't have any experience with that, but from what I've read on here, not many have been successful with that and burn the wort. I think they go to a RIMS or HERMS. I don't know anything about those.

Yes thanks... I just dumped the 11 gallons... it was sad.

I have the PID set to manual after I pull the bag and it is 100% until the boil starts then I set it down to get a nice boil.
I usually boil off about 1.25 gallons.
Is that OK?

I am direct firing during the mash, well what ever the PID needs to do to keep the temp constant.
I thought that was the whole benefit of doing ebiab? it will keep mash temps steady.
So the little bit the element is on when mashing, it will burn the wort?
But going forward, if I have a constant big stir on, performed by the motor, will it still burn?
Really confused?

Not to many people use a stir motor so I guess I am going to new places.

But what process do others do with a EBIAB? With and without pumps that is...
Something like -
Get water to mash temps
Mash with no added heat
Pull bag after 45-60 mins
Stir like crazy until a boil
Boil for an hour

This was a lot easier with a gas burner... but brewing in my basement is WAY nicer...ugh

thanks Kevin

 

[cgherrington3]

Here's how I do it.

Ekeggle with PID
1. Bring the strike water up to temp- throw a harbor freight $8 pump in to circulate the water for even heat.
2. Turn the PID off, pull the pump out, and mash in.
3. Wrap the keggle with a blanket.
4. Come back in 30 minutes to an hour (no I don't stir after the mash in), pull the blanket off, pull the bag, and give it a squeeze.
5. Put the pump back in and switch the element over to PWM (I have a cheap chinese PID, so I made a separate PWM with a 555 chip)
6. Pull the pump out when it hits 180* it won't survive a boil.
7. Dial the boil in with the PWM.

 

[haeffnkr]

Here's how I do it.

Ekeggle with PID
1. Bring the strike water up to temp- throw a harbor freight $8 pump in to circulate the water for even heat.
2. Turn the PID off, pull the pump out, and mash in.
3. Wrap the keggle with a blanket.
4. Come back in 30 minutes to an hour (no I don't stir after the mash in), pull the blanket off, pull the bag, and give it a squeeze.
5. Put the pump back in and switch the element over to PWM (I have a cheap chinese PID, so I made a separate PWM with a 555 chip)
6. Pull the pump out when it hits 180* it won't survive a boil.
7. Dial the boil in with the PWM.

thanks for the reply.
A few questions -
Do you grind once or more?
What is your efficiency?
How many batches have you done, what size?
How many burnt batches with this process?

thanks Kevin

 

[cgherrington3]

thanks for the reply.
A few questions -
Do you grind once or more?
What is your efficiency?
How many batches have you done, what size?
How many burnt batches with this process?

thanks Kevin

I grind once. I set my Cereal Killer gap with a credit card.
I don't calculate efficiency.
3-4 hoppers for 10 gallons makes good beer.
No burnt batches after I started using the PWM.

One thing I should add. I pull off some wort for a starter before I begin the boil. I guess you could test it for OG.

Consistency/recipes are not my thing. After I drink 5-10 gallons of a batch, I'm kind of sick of it and ready for something new. Whatever I have on hand I make beer out of; grain, grits, rice, whatever. I like to roast the grain, so I'll throw some gain in the oven when I can. SWMBO doesn't like the smell, so I do it when I can get away with it.

The only bad beer I ever made, was when I first went electric and burned it. Bad bad bad. Yuck. No good. Very sad day.

 

[jCOSbrew]

I use a silicon rubber sheet between the element in the grain bag during the mash for extra insurance. This works fine for the mash but one time I put this on the element while heating strike water and burnt some rubber.

Some people also insulate the kettle so they don't have to add heat during the mash.

 

[haeffnkr]

Hello,
I am baffled by this talk of not firing the element during mashing ebiab, keeping the mash temp spot on, by firing the element, was one of the biggest reason for making this setup.

I guess I have been lucky for the most part so far, except the burnt batch

So...Back to my latest ventures -
I make another 11 gallon Kolsch batch, with 4 pounds of wheat, ground all the grain one time.
I mashed in... put in the stir motor and it caught the bag... ripped a big whole in it. It was a giant mess, thank goodness I have a bottom drain.
I got the mess all out of the kettle and put a new bag in the kettle and started over again... the mash was 125 after this mess, I setup the stir motor again and kicked on the element/PID ... it fired a lot ... but no burned mash.
It was success. After it was over I had a bit of flour on the element but nothing burned.

Today I made a 6 gallon batch, ground one time, and setup the stir motor...kept the temps spot on and let the element fire when it wanted, mashed an hour, my temps held spot. element was almost clean when I emptied the kettle... It was a good day.

I believe grinding once and keeping the stir motor going is key.

thanks Kevin

 

[Vincenzo]

Kevin , did you have any further episodes of scorching ? Have you formed any other theories on this issue ? My experience is almost exactly the same and I suspect the double grind of wheat?
thanks Vince

 

[Cato1507]

Yes thanks... I just dumped the 11 gallons... it was sad.

I have the PID set to manual after I pull the bag and it is 100% until the boil starts then I set it down to get a nice boil.
I usually boil off about 1.25 gallons.
Is that OK?

I am direct firing during the mash, well what ever the PID needs to do to keep the temp constant.
I thought that was the whole benefit of doing ebiab? it will keep mash temps steady.
So the little bit the element is on when mashing, it will burn the wort?
But going forward, if I have a constant big stir on, performed by the motor, will it still burn?
Really confused?

Not to many people use a stir motor so I guess I am going to new places.

But what process do others do with a EBIAB? With and without pumps that is...
Something like -
Get water to mash temps
Mash with no added heat
Pull bag after 45-60 mins
Stir like crazy until a boil
Boil for an hour

This was a lot easier with a gas burner... but brewing in my basement is WAY nicer...ugh

thanks Kevin

I do eBIAB and do a single grind at credit card thickness gap on my mill.
That gives a nice grind and some flour but not tons. I do some Wits that have up to 50 % wheat and dont get scorching.

I see that you said you upgraded to a ULWD element. That has been the key to my eBIAB system upgrade last fall and the reason why I made the transition.

I use a 10gal 240vBlichmann kettle with ULWD boil coil and a Brew Commander controller, and a Riptide pump. I leave it on during mash and the brew bag i use rests directly on the element with no problems whatsoever.

I do use the pump and whirlpool port and leave it on during mash to help keep the thin grain bed fluid. I'll usually stir it up well on dough in and most times once again halfway through the mash.

I'm not an efficiency chaser so I don't double crush. IDK if I would encounter any problems by doing it. Instead I concentrate on my methods, recipes, and dialing in my numbers as tight as i can in Brew Smith.

I used to compensate a little loss in efficiency by either adding an extra bit of grain or boiling off a little bit more than called for.

I quit that jacking around when I bought the Blichmann equipment and had to enter the new equipment profile in Brew Smith.
Once I tracked and fine tuned the kettle loss from boil off, trub loss in my 3 different sized fermenters, my numbers fell into place and I haven't looked back.

The Boil Coil is a 3 ring halo element which I would think has a wider heat dispersion than a ripple ULWD, so IDK if a bag resting directly on a ULWD ripple could cause an issue or not.

I guess we all have different set ups and have to find the sweet spot to make them work with the least amount of problems.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I scorched one batch of very many using HD elements.
after the mash and collecting my wort I paused my session for an hour or so...
my takeaway....
I believe heavy trub worts can scorch on the ramp to boil if the trub is allowed to settle and collect on and around the elements. Stirring the wort periodically while heating to boil will help. Larger or double batches are more prone to this as the ramp to boil is longer....once boiling the wort and trub is moving and won’t easily scorch.
W/ wheat, I believe there is a lot of protein trub and if allowed to concentrate and stagnate at the element scorching can occur.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Hello,
I am baffled by this talk of not firing the element during mashing ebiab, keeping the mash temp spot on, by firing the element, was one of the biggest reason for making this setup.

I guess I have been lucky for the most part so far, except the burnt batch

So...Back to my latest ventures -
I make another 11 gallon Kolsch batch, with 4 pounds of wheat, ground all the grain one time.
I mashed in... put in the stir motor and it caught the bag... ripped a big whole in it. It was a giant mess, thank goodness I have a bottom drain.
I got the mess all out of the kettle and put a new bag in the kettle and started over again... the mash was 125 after this mess, I setup the stir motor again and kicked on the element/PID ... it fired a lot ... but no burned mash.
It was success. After it was over I had a bit of flour on the element but nothing burned.

Today I made a 6 gallon batch, ground one time, and setup the stir motor...kept the temps spot on and let the element fire when it wanted, mashed an hour, my temps held spot. element was almost clean when I emptied the kettle... It was a good day.

I believe grinding once and keeping the stir motor going is key.

thanks Kevin

I think a fair number of eBIAB brewers heat and recirculate during the mash. I do. You really don't need or want to grind finely when you are planning to recirculate. A year or two ago there was a thread discussing it and many actually got better efficiency with a courser grind if they were recirculating. I think it might have been in the Brew Boss thread. Anyway, I grind once with a gap set with a credit card. I'm relatively new, but I've had no stuck mashes.

Using some automated stirring method with a bag seems like a recipe for disaster. If you're really sold on that, I'd switch to a stainless basket. To be honest, you're eliminating one of the advantages of recirculating, which is building up a grain bed that filters your wort.

I use a relatively course bag (don't recall the measurement for sure, but I think it's 400 micron). It works very well for recirculating. I dough in, wait about 10 mins for the grain to settle (with the element off), then start the recirculation really, really slow with the PID enabled. I ramp up the flow over the course of about 5 mins to a flow that's pretty fast.

This does catch quite a bit of the trub in the grain bed, reducing the risk of scorching during ramp to boil. I don't squeeze the bag when I pull it and I still get minimal grain absorption and average about 72% efficiency for the brewhouse.