Dry yeast recommendation to make a Pilsner type beer?

[Robert65]

I'm afraid there is a fundamental misunderstanding here. WLP800 is not classified as an ale strain neither in the paper you linked to or in any other paper. What the document you linked to is telling us is that WLP800 has genetic affinities to several other strains. This however has nothing to do with its being either pastorianus or cerevisiae. Since the consesus is that pastorianus is the result of hybridsation of a cerevisiae strain it is not only possible but actually inevitable that WLP800 while being pastorianus will have a cerevisiae ancestor dating back to before the hybridisation event. Since the Urquell strain is allegedly the first pastorianus strain it's to be expected that it will have the greatest genetic affinity to current ale strains with which it might share that ancestor from before the hybridisation event.

The dendrograph and other data in the papers are clearly stated only to include cerevisiae strains. It is noted that many yeasts used to make lager are unexpectedly found to be cerevisiae strains. Urquell H is cerevisiae. It is also true that all pastorianus contains genetic material from cerevisiae as it is hybrid, with some strains, apparently type Saaz, containing more than type Frohberg. But the conventional classifications of ale and lager yeasts, while phenotypically accurate, do not always align as expected with genomic classification. All that should matter to the practical brewer is phenotype.

 

[hottpeper13]

I've been doing different fermentations with the 2 Kveiks, Hornindal and Voss. We made a Vienna Lager with Voss. Pitched a 1L starter at 68* let it free rise to 86* in 1 day(Freaken Wow). Here's the cool thing about it, on day 14 we kegged it and on day 28 we served it and it was clean and malty. Call it what you want,I just say it's tastey.

 

[duelerx]

Is there a source for this? I keep seeing posts about this but cannot find any source and at least Wyeast is still classifying its H-strain (allegedly one of the original Urquell strains) yeast as pastorianus.

I'm afraid there is a fundamental misunderstanding here. WLP800 is not classified as an ale strain neither in the paper you linked to or in any other paper. What the document you linked to is telling us is that WLP800 has genetic affinities to several other strains. This however has nothing to do with its being either pastorianus or cerevisiae. Since the consesus is that pastorianus is the result of hybridsation of a cerevisiae strain it is not only possible but actually inevitable that WLP800 while being pastorianus will have a cerevisiae ancestor dating back to before the hybridisation event. Since the Urquell strain is allegedly the first pastorianus strain it's to be expected that it will have the greatest genetic affinity to current ale strains with which it might share that ancestor from before the hybridisation event.

This is the paper.

 

[duelerx]

Kölsch was treated the same way all the time and never was called a lager, the yeast being the distinctive difference.

Not true.

 

[Robert65]

And Vale71, none of the strains in the Urquell mixed culture was ever claimed to be the first pastorianus. The hybridization events occurred several centuries prior to the mythical smuggling of Bavarian yeast to Pilsen; and the first isolated, pure cultures of what is now designated pastorianus were of course Hansen's at Carlsberg.

 

[Vale71]

The dendrograph and other data in the papers are clearly stated only to include cerevisiae strains. It is noted that many yeasts used to make lager are unexpectedly found to be cerevisiae strains. Urquell H is cerevisiae. It is also true that all pastorianus contains genetic material from cerevisiae as it is hybrid, with some strains, apparently type Saaz, containing more than type Frohberg. But the conventional classifications of ale and lager yeasts, while phenotypically accurate, do not always align as expected with genomic classification. All that should matter to the practical brewer is phenotype.

You are right, the study clearly indicates that only S. cerevisiae strains were selected. But on the other hand no official matching of codes with commercial strains was made in the papers and the identifications used in the dendogram are only the result of indeterminate guesswork by the author, which IMHO completely disqualifies any conclusion drawn from it. For all we know, what is identified as WLP800 could very well be any other Kölsch of German Ale strain not even necessarily originating from White Labs. All the paper's author says about this strain is that it is used to make a "lager" which again brings us back to the vague nature of the concept.

 

[Miraculix]

Not true.

Sorry Mate, but he doesn't give any supportive evidence. He actually proves himself wrong by writing the German part, unfortunately he seems not to speak German, so let me translate it.

Point one on his list, lagerähnliches bitterbier would be what kölsch falls into, which means "bitter beer which is mimicking a lager" or "bitter beer close to a lager".

I think he is a bit pissed about the whole ale/not ale thing he is pushing, and therefore gets a bit all over the place.

 

[duelerx]

Sorry Mate, but he doesn't give any supportive evidence. He actually proves himself wrong by writing the German part, unfortunately he seems not to speak German, so let me translate it.

Point one on his list, lagerähnliches bitterbier would be what kölsch falls into, which means "bitter beer which is mimicking a lager" or "bitter beer close to a lager".

I think he is a bit pissed about the whole ale/not ale thing he is pushing, and therefore gets a bit all over the place.

Read again he gives the sources just right there.

Here are the sources just in case:

"Gose Häppchen:100 Jahre Gosenschenke Ohne Bedenken", 1999, pages 13 - 63
"Die Geschichte der Gose" Otto Kröber, 1912.
"Die Biere Deutschlands" Höllhuber & Kaul, 1988, pages 342 - 344.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

To get back on track...

Hello everyone, does anyone have a good dry yeast recommendation to brew a Pilsner type dry extract beer with Hallertau hops? My fermenter does not fit in my refrigerator so it’s going to have to ferment around 75-76°.. thanks in advance everyone

That temp is a little bit too warm, accept for kveik strains. You can manage this by using a swamp cooler for the first 3-4 days. Various “clean fermenting” yeast will work and you can lager (cold store) your beers once they have carbed if you are bottle priming.

 

[mediant]

This is the paper.

It says nothing about WLP800 being classified as cerevisae. They use the term "ale" regarding clades as a synonym of brewing yeast. For instance, they list WLP862 belonging to "ale" clade, only to mention later that "the genome of WLP862 clearly classifies it as lager yeast (S. pastorianus)"
On the other hand, here WLP800 is clearly said to be among "lager brewing strains, belonging to the species Saccharomyces pastorianus"

 

[Miraculix]

Read again he gives the sources just right there.

Here are the sources just in case:

"Gose Häppchen:100 Jahre Gosenschenke Ohne Bedenken", 1999, pages 13 - 63
"Die Geschichte der Gose" Otto Kröber, 1912.
"Die Biere Deutschlands" Höllhuber & Kaul, 1988, pages 342 - 344.

So what? I don't get what you are trying to prove with this.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Maybe a mod could split off all the WLP800 discussion to another thread and leave this one to discussion of dry lager yeasts (whether they're pastorianus or not doesn't really matter)?

 

[passedpawn]

Maybe a mod could split off all the WLP800 discussion to another thread and leave this one to discussion of dry lager yeasts (whether they're pastorianus or not doesn't really matter)?

OP asked for yeasts to use for a warm-fermented pilsner. In fact, OP never mentioned lager. It's all relevant I think. I see a TON of chatter about ale vs lager in here, no wonder the OP never came back.

Best answers would probably point him to the numerous warm-fermented-pilsner threads that are active right now. Just a thought.