Dry yeast recommendation to make a Pilsner type beer?

[TBKCO]

Hello everyone, does anyone have a good dry yeast recommendation to brew a Pilsner type dry extract beer with Hallertau hops? My fermenter does not fit in my refrigerator so it’s going to have to ferment around 75-76°.. thanks in advance everyone

 

[Gnomebrewer]

75 to 76 is probably too high for anything clean (except maybe kveiks). Look in to building a swamp cooler - if you can get down to the mid 60's, W34/70 is reported to work nicely.
Have a read of the warm fermented lager thread
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/warm-fermented-lager-thread.592169/

 

[BruceH]

I'd try 34/70 or S189. I've made decent tasting beer (not outstanding but drinkable) with S189 in the high 60's to low 70's prior to having a fermentation chamber.

I think S189 is a little better at higher temps but mid 70's is pushing it. Interested in what you use and how it turns out.

 

[Robert65]

Don't forget that fermentation generates heat, so you'll easily be running 8°F higher than ambient. If ambient is in the mid 70s, actual fermentation temperature will be well into the 80s. No yeast, lager or ale, is going to yield good results under those conditions. Consider some kind of temperature control, if only the swamp cooler idea mentioned above.

 

[brewbama]

“Dry” and “extract” can be an issue as well. It certainly depends on the source of the extract and I imagine it could happen. But you might have difficulty getting an extract beer FG low enough to be considered “dry”.

I agree you will need to be able to get to and maintain at least mid 60(s)*F for most Ales and warm fermented Lagers. Waiting until Winter might be a solution if temp controls are out of reach.

 

[BruceH]

@Miraculix has done quite a bit of experimentation with this subject. Here is the thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/the-lazy-german-raw-warm-fermented-pilsener.638088/

 

[SanPancho]

Theres always the diy swamp cooler method- put carboy in a keg bucket, fill it up with water halfway, put an old t shirt on the carboy that wicks the water upwards, and a fan blowing on the carboy to provide the evap cooling.

S189 or 34/70 are my favs for warm lager.

Otherwise use a kveik. Check the milk the funk wiki, theres some that are super clean at room temp. You just gotta get your hands on some. Folks will share dried yeast if you look around.

 

[Miraculix]

You don't need low fermentation temperatures if you use the correct lager yeast. My favourite is mj 54 California lager, but it might take a bit longer to reach fg, just because this yeast tends to get a bit slow at the end. It produces very clean lager at room temperature.

Same goes for wlp800, but this one does not take as long as 54 to finish. So if you want to use liquid yeast, go for wlp800, otherwise mangrove Jack will also do.

 

[Steveruch]

“Dry” and “extract” can be an issue as well. It certainly depends on the source of the extract and I imagine it could happen. But you might have difficulty getting an extract beer FG low enough to be considered “dry”.

I recently did an extract with specialty grains brown ale that nottingham got down to 1.007.
nottingham is also supposed to be able to do a decent pseudo lager.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I recently did an extract with specialty grains brown ale that nottingham got down to 1.007.
nottingham is also supposed to be able to do a decent pseudo lager.

Nottingham will make a good lager if kept at 52 degrees F. Not quite what the OP is after.

 

[Smellyglove]

If fermenting at 23C then I'd just skip the whole "make a lager" aspect, and use an ale yeast and call it what it is, an ale.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The term "Lager" means "Store". Generally this is assumed to mean cold storage. The term should not (in my opinion at least) be associated with yeast. The seams are coming appart as to the distinction between yeast classifications anyway. Pilsner Urquell yeast is now classified as an Ale yeast.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

The term "Lager" means "Store". Generally this is assumed to mean cold storage. The term should not (in my opinion at least) be associated with yeast. The seams are coming appart as to the distinction between yeast classifications anyway. Pilsner Urquell yeast is now classified as an Ale yeast.

And California V Ale yeast (WLP051) is now classified as a lager yeast (Saccharomyces pastorianus).

 

[Gnomebrewer]

“Dry” and “extract” can be an issue as well. It certainly depends on the source of the extract and I imagine it could happen. But you might have difficulty getting an extract beer FG low enough to be considered “dry”.

I read 'Pilsner type dry extract beer' as a pilsner made with dry extract. It looks like you're reading it as an extract pilsner that is dry (low FG), which is perfectly valid with an often ambiguous language! Maybe the OP can clarify? I know it's not popular with many homebrewers, but adding a small amount of dextrose or (gasp) table sugar, can help with getting a lower FG in extract beers.

 

[Robert65]

Silver and Gnome,

Urquell used to use a multi-cell pitching yeast. At one time up to 6 strains, down to 3 by the 80s. In the 90s when they went to a single strain, pure culture, the one yeast they chose to keep was, indeed, the one cerevisiae in the mix. Many of the US brewers may trace back to the two Siebel-banked strains from the two Ballantine plants, where they appear to have made their ales with a pastorianus strain (probable ancestor of 051 IIRC) and their lagers with a cerevisiae (probable ancestor of Chico.) The recent genome studies show a significant number of yeasts used for lager are cerevisiae, and a smaller but notable number the other way around. Also, there are so many methods available to manipulate the process to elicit different characters from yeast...

Upshot, I have my own proposal for how to classify lager or ale. I call it the "quack like a duck" method. It doesn't matter what yeast you use, what temperature or pressure or speed you ferment at, or how or even if you age it. If it smells like a lager, tastes like a lager, it's a lager. If not, it's not. How's that?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I have my own proposal for how to classify lager or ale. I call it the "quack like a duck" method. It doesn't matter what yeast you use, what temperature or pressure or speed you ferment at, or how or even if you age it. If it smells like a lager, tastes like a lager, it's a lager. If not, it's not. How's that?

I'd say it's the perfect definition.

 

[brewbama]

I recently did an extract with specialty grains brown ale that nottingham got down to 1.007.
nottingham is also supposed to be able to do a decent pseudo lager.

That’s awesome. Though it’s been years, I don’t recall being as successful in my extract beers.

If fermenting at 23C then I'd just skip the whole "make a lager" aspect, and use an ale yeast and call it what it is, an ale.

What about obergäriges lagerbier (top-fermented lager beer)? Hmmm, Germans acknowledge top fermented lagers so it can’t be the yeast. Americans made lagers with 6 row and corn or rice. ...because the only requirement for a “lager” is cold storage. Ferm temp, yeast, grist....nothing else is required to call it a lager.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Because the only requirement for a “lager” is cold storage. Ferm temp, yeast, grist....nothing else is required to call it a lager.

So if an IPA sits in the fridge for a couple of weeks it becomes an IPL?

I prefer the quack like a duck definition.

 

[brewbama]

Well, as indicated above, Pilsner Urquel is fermented with ale yeast and it is the baseline lager. So...why not?!?!

 

[Gnomebrewer]

So...why not?!?!

Because it 'Baaaas' like a sheep.

 

[duelerx]

Which country defines what makes it an ale or a lager?, or even using the classification of ales and lagers. Germans are fine calling their Kölsch lagers.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

As with all things beer-style related, too often it comes down to what the BJCP decides.

 

[duelerx]

As with all things beer-style related, too often it comes down to what the BJCP decides.

Glad the BJCP is a style guideline for homebrewing competitions and not a worldwide specification.

 

[Kickass]

Silver and Gnome,

Urquell used to use a multi-cell pitching yeast. At one time up to 6 strains, down to 3 by the 80s. In the 90s when they went to a single strain, pure culture, the one yeast they chose to keep was, indeed, the one cerevisiae in the mix. Many of the US brewers may trace back to the two Siebel-banked strains from the two Ballantine plants, where they appear to have made their ales with a pastorianus strain (probable ancestor of 051 IIRC) and their lagers with a cerevisiae (probable ancestor of Chico.) The recent genome studies show a significant number of yeasts used for lager are cerevisiae, and a smaller but notable number the other way around. Also, there are so many methods available to manipulate the process to elicit different characters from yeast...

Upshot, I have my own proposal for how to classify lager or ale. I call it the "quack like a duck" method. It doesn't matter what yeast you use, what temperature or pressure or speed you ferment at, or how or even if you age it. If it smells like a lager, tastes like a lager, it's a lager. If not, it's not. How's that?

Incredibly fascinating! I don’t even know what’s real anymore. Yeast gnome studies really force one to question conventional wisdom.

 

[Vale71]

Well, as indicated above, Pilsner Urquel is fermented with ale yeast and it is the baseline lager. So...why not?!?!

Is there a source for this? I keep seeing posts about this but cannot find any source and at least Wyeast is still classifying its H-strain (allegedly one of the original Urquell strains) yeast as pastorianus.

 

[Vale71]

Upshot, I have my own proposal for how to classify lager or ale. I call it the "quack like a duck" method. It doesn't matter what yeast you use, what temperature or pressure or speed you ferment at, or how or even if you age it. If it smells like a lager, tastes like a lager, it's a lager. If not, it's not. How's that?

It's brilliant. Now please define "smells like a lager, tastes like a lager" and your work is complete...

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Is there a source for this? I keep seeing posts about this but cannot find any source and at least Wyeast is still classifying its H-strain (allegedly one of the original Urquell strains) yeast as pastorianus.

It is from the ale yeast genome studies categorized as seen in this link:

http://beer.suregork.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Brewing_yeast_family_tree_nov_2018_v11.pdf

WLP-800 appears in about the 7 o'clock region.

 

[Vale71]

I'm afraid there is a fundamental misunderstanding here. WLP800 is not classified as an ale strain neither in the paper you linked to or in any other paper. What the document you linked to is telling us is that WLP800 has genetic affinities to several other strains. This however has nothing to do with its being either pastorianus or cerevisiae. Since the consesus is that pastorianus is the result of hybridsation of a cerevisiae strain it is not only possible but actually inevitable that WLP800 while being pastorianus will have a cerevisiae ancestor dating back to before the hybridisation event. Since the Urquell strain is allegedly the first pastorianus strain it's to be expected that it will have the greatest genetic affinity to current ale strains with which it might share that ancestor from before the hybridisation event.

 

[Miraculix]

The term "Lager" means "Store". Generally this is assumed to mean cold storage. The term should not (in my opinion at least) be associated with yeast. The seams are coming appart as to the distinction between yeast classifications anyway. Pilsner Urquell yeast is now classified as an Ale yeast.

Kölsch was treated the same way all the time and never was called a lager, the yeast being the distinctive difference.

On the other hand, some lager yeasts did actually show up as ale yeasts during genetic tests (wlp800) and some yeasts seem to share genes from both sides.

So it is blurry.

I would say, the most important thing is the final result and there are good candidates from both sides, lager and ale (and kveik) that can get you a decent lager beer at room temperature.

 

[ebbelwoi]

To the OP: I've made some pretty good dry lager-like beer fermented very warm (80s-90s F) with this dry kveik: https://www.etsy.com/listing/701029002/kveik-isolate-lager-like-dry-dried?ref=shop_home_active_5

The seller is also a HBT user.

 

[Robert65]

I'm afraid there is a fundamental misunderstanding here. WLP800 is not classified as an ale strain neither in the paper you linked to or in any other paper. What the document you linked to is telling us is that WLP800 has genetic affinities to several other strains. This however has nothing to do with its being either pastorianus or cerevisiae. Since the consesus is that pastorianus is the result of hybridsation of a cerevisiae strain it is not only possible but actually inevitable that WLP800 while being pastorianus will have a cerevisiae ancestor dating back to before the hybridisation event. Since the Urquell strain is allegedly the first pastorianus strain it's to be expected that it will have the greatest genetic affinity to current ale strains with which it might share that ancestor from before the hybridisation event.

The dendrograph and other data in the papers are clearly stated only to include cerevisiae strains. It is noted that many yeasts used to make lager are unexpectedly found to be cerevisiae strains. Urquell H is cerevisiae. It is also true that all pastorianus contains genetic material from cerevisiae as it is hybrid, with some strains, apparently type Saaz, containing more than type Frohberg. But the conventional classifications of ale and lager yeasts, while phenotypically accurate, do not always align as expected with genomic classification. All that should matter to the practical brewer is phenotype.

 

[hottpeper13]

I've been doing different fermentations with the 2 Kveiks, Hornindal and Voss. We made a Vienna Lager with Voss. Pitched a 1L starter at 68* let it free rise to 86* in 1 day(Freaken Wow). Here's the cool thing about it, on day 14 we kegged it and on day 28 we served it and it was clean and malty. Call it what you want,I just say it's tastey.

 

[duelerx]

Is there a source for this? I keep seeing posts about this but cannot find any source and at least Wyeast is still classifying its H-strain (allegedly one of the original Urquell strains) yeast as pastorianus.

I'm afraid there is a fundamental misunderstanding here. WLP800 is not classified as an ale strain neither in the paper you linked to or in any other paper. What the document you linked to is telling us is that WLP800 has genetic affinities to several other strains. This however has nothing to do with its being either pastorianus or cerevisiae. Since the consesus is that pastorianus is the result of hybridsation of a cerevisiae strain it is not only possible but actually inevitable that WLP800 while being pastorianus will have a cerevisiae ancestor dating back to before the hybridisation event. Since the Urquell strain is allegedly the first pastorianus strain it's to be expected that it will have the greatest genetic affinity to current ale strains with which it might share that ancestor from before the hybridisation event.

This is the paper.

 

[duelerx]

Kölsch was treated the same way all the time and never was called a lager, the yeast being the distinctive difference.

Not true.

 

[Robert65]

And Vale71, none of the strains in the Urquell mixed culture was ever claimed to be the first pastorianus. The hybridization events occurred several centuries prior to the mythical smuggling of Bavarian yeast to Pilsen; and the first isolated, pure cultures of what is now designated pastorianus were of course Hansen's at Carlsberg.

 

[Vale71]

The dendrograph and other data in the papers are clearly stated only to include cerevisiae strains. It is noted that many yeasts used to make lager are unexpectedly found to be cerevisiae strains. Urquell H is cerevisiae. It is also true that all pastorianus contains genetic material from cerevisiae as it is hybrid, with some strains, apparently type Saaz, containing more than type Frohberg. But the conventional classifications of ale and lager yeasts, while phenotypically accurate, do not always align as expected with genomic classification. All that should matter to the practical brewer is phenotype.

You are right, the study clearly indicates that only S. cerevisiae strains were selected. But on the other hand no official matching of codes with commercial strains was made in the papers and the identifications used in the dendogram are only the result of indeterminate guesswork by the author, which IMHO completely disqualifies any conclusion drawn from it. For all we know, what is identified as WLP800 could very well be any other Kölsch of German Ale strain not even necessarily originating from White Labs. All the paper's author says about this strain is that it is used to make a "lager" which again brings us back to the vague nature of the concept.

 

[Miraculix]

Not true.

Sorry Mate, but he doesn't give any supportive evidence. He actually proves himself wrong by writing the German part, unfortunately he seems not to speak German, so let me translate it.

Point one on his list, lagerähnliches bitterbier would be what kölsch falls into, which means "bitter beer which is mimicking a lager" or "bitter beer close to a lager".

I think he is a bit pissed about the whole ale/not ale thing he is pushing, and therefore gets a bit all over the place.

 

[duelerx]

Sorry Mate, but he doesn't give any supportive evidence. He actually proves himself wrong by writing the German part, unfortunately he seems not to speak German, so let me translate it.

Point one on his list, lagerähnliches bitterbier would be what kölsch falls into, which means "bitter beer which is mimicking a lager" or "bitter beer close to a lager".

I think he is a bit pissed about the whole ale/not ale thing he is pushing, and therefore gets a bit all over the place.

Read again he gives the sources just right there.

Here are the sources just in case:

"Gose Häppchen:100 Jahre Gosenschenke Ohne Bedenken", 1999, pages 13 - 63
"Die Geschichte der Gose" Otto Kröber, 1912.
"Die Biere Deutschlands" Höllhuber & Kaul, 1988, pages 342 - 344.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

To get back on track...

Hello everyone, does anyone have a good dry yeast recommendation to brew a Pilsner type dry extract beer with Hallertau hops? My fermenter does not fit in my refrigerator so it’s going to have to ferment around 75-76°.. thanks in advance everyone

That temp is a little bit too warm, accept for kveik strains. You can manage this by using a swamp cooler for the first 3-4 days. Various “clean fermenting” yeast will work and you can lager (cold store) your beers once they have carbed if you are bottle priming.

 

[mediant]

This is the paper.

It says nothing about WLP800 being classified as cerevisae. They use the term "ale" regarding clades as a synonym of brewing yeast. For instance, they list WLP862 belonging to "ale" clade, only to mention later that "the genome of WLP862 clearly classifies it as lager yeast (S. pastorianus)"
On the other hand, here WLP800 is clearly said to be among "lager brewing strains, belonging to the species Saccharomyces pastorianus"