Dry yeast manufacturers… could you please up the 11g packet size?

[bwible]

Well call me crazy, but I'm not going to rack an IPA onto a Hefeweizen yeast cake or a porter onto Saison yeast.

Oh absolutely. Hefeweizen is the one strain I can’t really find a second style to use it for. Its really a one trick pony. I don’t do Saison or anything Belgian.

But yeah, I did just split a 1056 into 2 starters. Well first, I had to do a starter because the pack was out of date. Second I plan to make 6 beers out of it. All 3 gallon batches. So far I’ve made an Irish Red followed by 2 stouts. The other starter I split off is going into a Centennial Blonde followed by a pale ale then an IPA. So yeah, I didn’t want the dark grains from the stout in the American beers and I didn’t want the hops from the American beers in the Irish Red or the stouts. Stuff like this is understandable. But I don’t usually make 6 beers out of 1 yeast.

Since I’m also doing 3 gallon batches, I rarely do a starter unless the pack is out of date or something.

 

[bwible]

Regarding repitching... The price can't be beat. And very often, it's convenient. But viability and vitality isn't as good as a fresh pitch of commercially produced yeast. Commercial breweries who repitch are compensating for that with the sheer volume of yeast repitched (i.e. very high pitch rates). White Labs and Wyeast can make a healthier pitch than our fermenters can, because they are purposefully culturing yeast rather than making beer.

I wonder what they do different to culture yeast as opposed to making beer? Do they not use hops or something? I know when I do make starters I usually don’t add hops to the starter. Though I know some people do. But I’d think if the intent is to grow yeast in a beer medium (which seems to be how they are all packaged) wouldn’t they end up with some kind of drinkable product at the end? Unless they just throw it away.

 

[VikeMan]

I wonder what they do different to culture yeast as opposed to making beer?

No hops. Low-ish gravity "wort." Added Nutrients. Strict Oxygen control.

But I’d think if the intent is to grow yeast in a beer medium (which seems to be how they are all packaged) wouldn’t they end up with some kind of drinkable product at the end? Unless they just throw it away.

Alcohol is produced. "Drinkable" is subjective. I don't know what any of the yeast manufacturers do with the alcohol produced, but I'd bet a paycheck nobody is drinking it.

 

[MaxStout]

Alcohol is produced. "Drinkable" is subjective. I don't know what any of the yeast manufacturers do with the alcohol produced, but I'd bet a paycheck nobody is drinking it.

When I visited White Labs' tasting room a few years ago, I saw lots of test batches on tap, but nothing called "yeast production dregs."

 

[odie]

I'll just "pitch" this out here...

I've never pitched more than a single 11g packet. I do an RIS that starts WELL over 1.100 and finishes north of 13% ABV on a single US-05 packet.

I now buy the 500g bricks but measure out no more than a single packet amount per batch.

 

[bracconiere]

15 cents a gram or $1.77 for the equivalent to a 11.5g packet.

in the words of vanilla ice, "if yeast was beer yeast, i'd sell it by the gram" i can buy a 2lb brick of active dry for $15? explain?

 

[Bassman2003]

I don’t know why people insist they have to make a starter with liquid yeast. All the companies advertise pitchabe yeast. I always try to get several uses out of one pack. I brew light to dark, weak to strong - same way beer judges judge beer. If my first beer is in the 1.040 range I’m good. Then I pitch subsequent beers onto the built up yeast cake from the previous beer.

I will only speak for myself, but from experience, the lag times from direct pitching WL vials have often been 30 hours+ Also getting fresh yeast is often difficult. If you want convenience, do things the easier way. Just know others do more for real reasons as that has been proven to be the best way for performance etc... Read up on yeast and the main theme is pitch a lot of healthy active cells. The best way to achieve this is to make a starter or pitch multiple packs.

As CascadeBrewer already stated, fermentation and yeast management is where it all happens. Not the place to skimp imho. But that is just for my brewing and no worries for others' to go a different path.

 

[VikeMan]

A few people have mentioned pitching at relatively low rates, but always getting full attenuation anyway. In my experience, you have to underpitch pretty severely to noticeably impact attenuation. IMO, flavor is the reason to pay attention to pitch rates, and pitch accordingly, to style and personal preference.

 

[MaxStout]

in the words of vanilla ice, "if yeast was beer yeast, i'd sell it by the gram" i can buy a 2lb brick of active dry for $15? explain?

Yeast mfrs know they can charge much more for brewer's yeast. It's what the market can bear. Bread yeast, OTOH, would never fetch $4/packet in the grocery stores.

 

[bwible]

I'll just "pitch" this out here...

I've never pitched more than a single 11g packet. I do an RIS that starts WELL over 1.100 and finishes north of 13% ABV on a single US-05 packet.

I now buy the 500g bricks but measure out no more than a single packet amount per batch.

I just did a RIS yesterday that’s fermenting away. Before that I did an Irish Red then a Dry Stout (planning ahead for St. Patty’s Day) and the RIS was the 3rd use of that yeast cake which was pretty well built up by then. Thats how I approach the big beers. When I do a barleywine I will do at least a pale ale first, maybe a pale ale then an IPA. With a barleywine I’m not worried about carrying over any hops.

For English beers I’ll do a Bitter or Best Bitter into an English Pale Ale. Mild seems to be the rub because its weaker but also darker. And I haven’t made one for awhile. But if I was going to do those 3, I would probably go Bitter then Mild then English Pale Ale. Or Mild into a Porter works. Re-using yeast is all about planning the beers the yeast can make and making them in a good order that makes sense.

 

[bwible]

Yeast mfrs know they can charge much more for brewer's yeast. It's what the market can bear. Bread yeast, OTOH, would never fetch $4/packet in the grocery stores.

But I know some people here are also part of the homemade pizza thread

 

[MaxStout]

But I know some people here are also part of the homemade pizza thread

Not to mention a few who brew with bread yeast. There was someone this morning who posted that they prefer that yeast for mead.

If they like the taste, more power to 'em.

 

[dmtaylor]

A few people have mentioned pitching at relatively low rates, but always getting full attenuation anyway. In my experience, you have to underpitch pretty severely to noticeably impact attenuation. IMO, flavor is the reason to pay attention to pitch rates, and pitch accordingly, to style and personal preference.

I hypothesize that the only reason attenuation could be impacted by an underpitch is... that the pitch never really took off, and instead you've had some other unintended contaminant perform the fermentation for you. But if pitching healthy yeast, even if it's an underpitch, all other variables being the same, you should get the same attenuation no matter what.

 

[odie]

A few people have mentioned pitching at relatively low rates, but always getting full attenuation anyway.

that's cause yeast does what yeast does...eats sugar and multiplies...oh, and leaves us with this lovely thing called alcohol...

the smallest pitch is gonna do it's thing...eat and reproduce...

 

[odie]

I hypothesize that the only reason attenuation could be impacted by an underpitch is... that the pitch never really took off, and instead you've had some other unintended contaminant perform the fermentation for you. But if pitching healthy yeast, even if it's an underpitch, all other variables being the same, you should get the same attenuation no matter what.

bingo...I believe this is the only thing that matters with pitch rate...you want the desirable yeast to dominate...dominate early...

so, the better your cleanliness, sanitation, fermenter sealing, etc...the smaller pitch you can safely do...

If your methods are sloppy...then pitch large to have any chance at a decent beer.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

When I visited White Labs' tasting room a few years ago, I saw lots of test batches on tap, but nothing called "yeast production dregs."

I have to believe that the test batches they put on tap are completely separate from how they propagate yeast. A while back I read through the patent regarding White Labs "Pure Pitch" packaging (I don't have a link to it now). They have an interesting system where they ferment in a large "plastic" bladder and then seal up individual compartments of different sizes for different pitches. I also suspect during fermentation there is a lot of oxygen introduced to keep the yeast healthy and reproducing, likely without any hops.

Regarding repitching... The price can't be beat. And very often, it's convenient.

This was my strategy for a few years. It works really well if you are using 2-3 core strains and brewing often. It also helps if you mix in some lower gravity and non-dry hopped batched in the mix. I am pretty sure I got 12 or more batches out of a $8 pack of WLP001. In 2021 my focus was on using dry yeast. Both methods have advantages and disadvantages for me. Also, while dry yeast is "cheap", a dozen packs of US-05 adds up in cost, and some of the Lallemand yeasts sell locally for $7 per pack.

Yeast mfrs know they can charge much more for brewer's yeast. It's what the market can bear. Bread yeast, OTOH, would never fetch $4/packet in the grocery stores.

I am curious about the production cost differences between beer yeast and bread yeast. For the most part, bread yeast just needs to produce CO2, then any contamination is kill off during the baking process. I am not sure if maintaining pure single strain cultures matter much either. Where beer yeast has much higher standards.

 

[Protos]

[SQUEAKY VOICE ON]Oh no please! Don't do shifting to 20 g packets!.. We Little-Guys-Brewing-Little-5L/1.5G-Batches are very against that... We divide our 10g sachets up for 4 brews and every time we reseal the sachet we are nervous about it getting contaminated. If the sachets are 20 g, we'll need to reseal them 7 times which will make us even more nervous![SQUEAKY VOICE OFF]

 

[McMullan]

So have we made any progress arriving at some kind of consensus re the OP's valid, in my view, point about bigger standard homebrew packs of dry yeast, for a standard 5 gallon batch? I like to pitch at a high rate to control the yeast profile, which, for me, produces a better balanced beer. And if I'm using dry yeast these days it's because I'm brewing a lager, which requires at least two packs. A pack for half a standard batch seems to be a bit of a con.

 

[McMullan]

[SQUEAKY VOICE ON]Oh no please! Don't do shifting to 20 g packets!.. We Little-Guys-Brewing-Little-5L/1.5G-Batches are very against that... We divide our 10g sachets up for 4 brews and every time we reseal the sachet we are nervous about it getting contaminated. If the sachets are 20 g, we'll need to reseal them 7 times which will make us even more nervous![SQUEAKY VOICE OFF]

You can group buy a 20g pack.

 

[Protos]

How insensitive, Mr McMullan!
It's exactly the same as the Big Guys always ask us "Why don't you brew a group 25L batch???".

 

[dmtaylor]

So have we made any progress arriving at some kind of consensus re the OP's valid, in my view, point about bigger standard homebrew packs of dry yeast, for a standard 5 gallon batch? I like to pitch at a high rate to control the yeast profile, which, for me, produces a better balanced beer. And if I'm using dry yeast these days it's because I'm brewing a lager, which requires at least two packs. A pack for half a standard batch seems to be a bit of a con.

Given that we are all idiots, I would say that neither have we reached consensus, nor should we necessarily aim to do so.

 

[TestTickle]

81 posts....oops, 82 posts later and we have made no progress? Damn, this hobby is time consuming as hell.

 

[Protos]

Surely it's not because we're idiots Rather it's because smart guys in yeast-producing labs thoroughly calculated how much a dry yeast sachet should contain. Probably, by hiring market analytics for good money. I don't think the 10g standard has been chosen just arbitrarily.

 

[VikeMan]

bingo...I believe this is the only thing that matters with pitch rate...you want the desirable yeast to dominate...dominate early...

At the risk of beating a dead horse, pitch rates also affect ester and fusel levels. So outcompeting bugs can't be the only reason pich rate matters, unless ester and fusel levels don't matter.

 

[tracer bullet]

If I make a 1.060 pale ale, 5 gallons worth, I want to buy a yeast pack that's able to be pitched and walk away from. It can be up to a month old. And has the cells they have determined are needed to do the job. Dry or liquid.

If I make a smaller batch I can divvy the pack up if needed. If I make an Imperial I will pitch 2 packs or make a starter. But I'd like the average beer, if there is such a thing, to need 1 pack and that be that.

If we're talking dry yeast, I can't say if that's more or less than 11 grams. We, and probably the manufacturers, might never agree on it.

 

[Beermeister32]

Many products, probably yeast too, have intersecting sales slopes based on numer of units sold vs packaging size for example. The point of intersection tells you about where your profitability is highest and what the best packaging size is. There are a lot of other costs than just the material in the pack as well.

So the sweet spot where the slopes meet is where you are making money. Make something bigger or smaller it may not be as profitable, as it will affect sales volume. A slightly bigger pack, desired by home brewers, could drop the sales volume of the product in half for example as people order less, negatively affecting profitability. Make a smaller pack, people go elsewhere for more value in a bigger pack. Quite a balancing act.

 

[Brewdog80]

Temp does way more than yeast pitch rate which does nothing for esters ... But pitch rate does keep bacteria from taking as quick a hold. I made starters for years and only pitched liquid. But last 2 of 4 beers have been dry Nottingham and have worked great. Yes, liquid and starter kicks beer off in 4 to 6 hours that you can obviously observe, and dry without starter (obviously shouldn't) takes 12 to 20.

 

[VikeMan]

Temp does way more than yeast pitch rate which does nothing for esters ...

Temperature is one factor affecting ester production. Oxygen, Wort Gravity, and Pitch Rate are others. There are more. That pitch rate affects esters is commonly accepted brewing science. If you're going to keep saying that pitch rate doesn't affect esters, please provide proof, because the burden is on you.

 

[kartracer2]

And now for something completely different.
Maybe make a 5 or 6g. package in the popular flavors along with the 11g presently offered.
Reasoning; 1) It would suit small batch brewers better. 2) It would also be a multiplier in pitch rates, better than say, a 22g package.
Yes I know, packaging cost would probably negate any perceived or actual savings.
Just wanting too keep the pot stirred.
Cheers,
Joel B.

 

[bracconiere]

And now for something completely different.
Maybe make a 5 or 6g. package in the popular flavors along with the 11g presently offered.
Reasoning; 1) It would suit small batch brewers better. 2) It would also be a multiplier in pitch rates, better than say, a 22g package.
Yes I know, packaging cost would probably negate any perceived or actual savings.
Just wanting too keep the pot stirred.
Cheers,
Joel B.

now you went and did it!!! i am so going to order this now!!

https://labelpeelers.com/liquor-mak...1w-8e02PEWycyL3d4IBcZkUw05WpYC-xoC8F0QAvD_BwE

18 cents a 11g packet! Who's your DADY! if it floccs good i'm sold!


edit: at that price, i'll probably make health smoothies with it too!