Dry yeast manufacturers… could you please up the 11g packet size?

[TestTickle]

I feel like people who frequently make starters, are by and large just busybodies who really enjoy the science behind brewing, and just always have to have something going on in their little laboratories. From my experience, there is virtually no reason to make a starter for 95%of the beers most are brewing, and the money saved is minimal in the grand scheme of things. If you enjoy doing it, knock yourself out, but it’s usually overkill IMO.

I can assure you that next to cleaning, making starters is probably my least favorite part of brewing.

 

[Ogilthorpe2]

I can assure you that next to cleaning, making starters is probably my least favorite part of brewing.

So you create more cleaning for yourself by making starters instead of just spending an extra 5-6 bucks? In my feeble mind making a starter is just one more (unnecessary) opportunity for something to go wrong. Unless you’re consistently making very high gravity beer, I just don’t see the cost/benefit advantages.

 

[Steveruch]

Depends on what you're brewing. When I need more than 11.5 grams, but less than 23 for a British ale I'll add a 6 gram pack of Muntons to the S-04.

 

[TestTickle]

So you create more cleaning for yourself by making starters instead of just spending an extra 5-6 bucks? In my feeble mind making a starter is just one more (unnecessary) opportunity for something to go wrong. Unless you’re consistently making very high gravity beer, I just don’t see the cost/benefit advantages.

Let me clarify first of all that I am referring to liquid yeast, not dry. I never have and would never make a starter with dry yeast unless I was desperate. At $10 (or more) per pack of liquid yeast, there is definitely some savings with liquid yeast starters. Plus, I overbuild starters and save yeast for the next starter. Added up over the course of a year, even considering the cost of DME, there is a benefit. Plus, I've always got yeast when I need it instead of depending on the LBHS having it in stock, ordering it in hot summer months, etc.

With this said, I use dry yeast about 75% of the time.

 

[MaxStout]

Unfortunately, it comes down to a predictable business decision aimed at maximising profits and stuffing shareholders, not encouraging home brewers to pitch at decent rates. The same thing with liquid/wet yeast suppliers, to be fair, but not so harsh here, because a starter needs to be made when using wet yeast. What's annoying is dry yeast manufacturers sell the marketing spiel about how convenient ADY is compared to wet yeast then sell home brewers stingy pack sizes barely sufficient for fermenting a half batch. It's a bit devious, if we're misled to compare the price of one pack dry yeast vs one pack of wet yeast. They should accept they're mis-selling their product, double the standard homebrew pack size and compromise on price.

I don't know what percentage market share is comprised of home brewers, but I suspect it's tiny compared to their commercial accounts. We don't have enough juice to encourage them to change package size, and they are content to sell us multiple 11g packs.

 

[eric19312]

Plus, I've always got yeast when I need it instead of depending on the LBHS having it in stock, ordering it in hot summer months, etc.

this flexibility is why all of my brewing over last few years has been dry yeast or re-used yeast.

I always have enough packs of dry yeast on hand to brew a batch should the opportunity arise. When I used to use liquid yeast I needed to plan brew day pretty accurately about a week out, especially if it was going to be a multistep starter... With the dry yeast if the weather is fantastic and dogs talk me into going to the beach instead of brewing it's no big deal, I can always brew next weekend without worrying about how to maintain my ready to go starter. Similarly if weekend plans changed on Saturday afternoon and Sunday suddenly turns into a brewday, no problem, ingredients are ready let's brew!

Also the reusing yeast thing...I frequently will brew and keg on same day (I harvest the yeast mid process, after fermentation is done, before dry hopping). This lets me manage the kegging and fermentor cleaning process during mash/lauter/boil a brew day. When I keg I test the beer, gravity...did I hit expected attenuation? taste...any off flavors indicating possible infection or stressed fermentation? If I see any issues I won't reuse the yeast, it is a game day decision made just a few hours before pitching.

 

[McMullan]

I don't know what percentage market share is comprised of home brewers, but I suspect it's tiny compared to their commercial accounts. We don't have enough juice to encourage them to change package size, and they are content to sell us multiple 11g packs.

True, the general market for dry yeast is huge, a multi-billion $ global industry, but I do think the homebrew market has grown massively too. It's probably bigger than the craft brewing market. Not something any relevant business would want to shy away from.

 

[McMullan]

Right, so ignoring our ability, as AG brewers, to knock up a little starter wort and our willingness, or not, to plan some minutes prepping a starter, going back to the OP, are some people here actually saying they wouldn't prefer to have more yeast in a standard sized home-brew pack of dry yeast? Not even for the same price as existing home-brew packs? I find it a little bit annoying, because I çan get a box of 5 X 12.5g dry baker's yeast for less than half the price of one pack of dry brewer's yeast. Practically, there's not really any difference for the manufacturers, apart from the sales price, of course.

Edit: Sorry, I think dry yeast manufacturers can afford to be generous enough to sell standard homebrew packs that are 'one size fits all'. At least for a standard batch of 5ish gallons, regardless of OG. If a home brewer chooses to pitch less that's his choice. I reckon the first dry yeast manufacturer to adopt this better model is going to be at a serious competitive advantage

 

[TestTickle]

this flexibility is why all of my brewing over last few years has been dry yeast or re-used yeast.

I always have enough packs of dry yeast on hand to brew a batch should the opportunity arise. When I used to use liquid yeast I needed to plan brew day pretty accurately about a week out, especially if it was going to be a multistep starter... With the dry yeast if the weather is fantastic and dogs talk me into going to the beach instead of brewing it's no big deal, I can always brew next weekend without worrying about how to maintain my ready to go starter. Similarly if weekend plans changed on Saturday afternoon and Sunday suddenly turns into a brewday, no problem, ingredients are ready let's brew!

Also the reusing yeast thing...I frequently will brew and keg on same day (I harvest the yeast mid process, after fermentation is done, before dry hopping). This lets me manage the kegging and fermentor cleaning process during mash/lauter/boil a brew day. When I keg I test the beer, gravity...did I hit expected attenuation? taste...any off flavors indicating possible infection or stressed fermentation? If I see any issues I won't reuse the yeast, it is a game day decision made just a few hours before pitching.

I use dry yeast when I can, but unfortunately, even as far as dry yeast has come in quality and variety over the years, there sometimes is just no substitute for a particular liquid yeast.

 

[eric19312]

Practically, there's not really any difference for the manufacturers, apart from the sales price, of course.

How do you know this is true?
- Is the process for manufacturing dry brewers yeast exactly the same as for bread yeast? Identical ingredients, manufacturing scale and quality control?
- Is the cost of marketing a unit of baker's yeast the same as for brewers yeast? Seem to me brewers are pretty demanding customers.
- How many different strains of baker's yeast does a yeast manufacturer need to maintain? How much investment into development of new strains?

And if we are going to compare yeast prices between brewers and bread why not ask why liquid brewers yeast is so dang expensive? Liquid bread yeast used to be a thing in the 19th century but was replaced by fresh cake yeast. Fresh cake yeast for home market appears to be about 2x the price of active dry yeast from same manufacturer, likely due to packaging and shipping (cold chain rapidly perishable product). Still a 2oz block (600 billion cells!) of fresh compressed bread yeast is just $4.50 at Whole Paycheck...

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I feel like people who frequently make starters, are by and large just busybodies who really enjoy the science behind brewing, and just always have to have something going on in their little laboratories. From my experience, there is virtually no reason to make a starter for 95%of the beers most are brewing, and the money saved is minimal in the grand scheme of things. If you enjoy doing it, knock yourself out, but it’s usually overkill IMO.

I am sure people say the same thing about people that use fermentation temperature control, or adjust their water chemistry/pH, or do closed keg transfers, etc. I am not sure if you are talking about dry yeast or liquid yeast or 100B cell liquid yeast vs 200B cell liquid yeast. In my mind, fermentation is the most critical stage to making good beer. There are a number of factors in play, but pitching an adequate amount of healthy yeast is one of them. A 3 month old pack of White Labs or Wyeast will often ferment out fine (often after a long lag) and this is especially true if the wort is well oxygenated and using temperature control. There is often a good chance that fermentation will take an extra week, or you won't hit the attenuation target, or you won't have enough healthy yeast to clean up off flavors.

I don't make a lot of starters myself. I get around this by making 2.5 gallon batches, or using dry yeast, or harvesting and repitching yeast. Making a starter with a pack of Wyeast or White Labs is a very simple step towards consistently making better beer.

 

[hotbeer]

I guess one can imagine all sorts of terrible things happening when that tiny 11 gram pack of dry yeast is opened and not used immediately. I doubt it's anywhere near what imaginations allowed to run rampant have one believe.

I just cut the top off, measure out what I need and then push the air out of the packet and fold some shipping tape over the top to seal it. Then back in the fridge it goes.

Since I only brew less than a 5 quarts at a time, a packet last me several batches and the last batch it is used in ferments just as quick as the first batch did. Though with smaller batches I'm brewing more often so that pack doesn't last for longer than 2 months.

 

[McMullan]

How do you know this is true?
- Is the process for manufacturing dry brewers yeast exactly the same as for bread yeast? Identical ingredients, manufacturing scale and quality control?
- Is the cost of marketing a unit of baker's yeast the same as for brewers yeast? Seem to me brewers are pretty demanding customers.
- How many different strains of baker's yeast does a yeast manufacturer need to maintain? How much investment into development of new strains?

And if we are going to compare yeast prices between brewers and bread why not ask why liquid brewers yeast is so dang expensive? Liquid bread yeast used to be a thing in the 19th century but was replaced by fresh cake yeast. Fresh cake yeast for home market appears to be about 2x the price of active dry yeast from same manufacturer, likely due to packaging and shipping (cold chain rapidly perishable product). Still a 2oz block (600 billion cells!) of fresh compressed bread yeast is just $4.50 at Whole Paycheck...

Yes, practically the same thing. In the 19th century, brewer's yeast (from breweries) was used by bakers generally. It wasn't until the early 20th century that specified baker's yeast became commercially available. Even today many bakers prefer fresh yeast, which costs a bit more and has a much shorter shelf life.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Rabbit hole:

Did you ever play around with under pitching Belle Saison as mentioned in that thread?

 

[dmtaylor]

Did you ever play around with under pitching Belle Saison as mentioned in that thread?

I have only used Belle Saison one time, and it was years ago so I don't recall the pitch rate. What I can tell you is that it won a gold or silver in competition (I don't remember which, I want to say silver?).

 

[Ogilthorpe2]

FTR, I believe Omega upped the amount of yeast in their standard home brew packs by 50%. Of course the price went up commensurately.

 

[MaxStout]

My brew club buddy buys the 500g bricks, stores in a sealed Quart canning jar, and dips out what he wants for each batch

I'm half tempted to do that, though 500g is probably more than I'd use by its use-by date. I brew a lot of British styles, so S-04 could be my mainstay for many of those. I use that yeast the most often, with US-05 in 2nd place. I could easily go through a chunk of a brick in the 2-3 years I'd have. Maybe find another brewer nearby to split a brick.

I see it on Amazon for $77 a brick, which works out to about 15 cents a gram or $1.77 for the equivalent to a 11.5g packet. At that rate I could pitch 2.5 times that for the cost of a single packet.

Keeping it sterile all that time with repeated opening of the jar and scooping would be my concern.

 

[soccerdad]

I'm half tempted to do that, though 500g is probably more than I'd use by its use-by date. I brew a lot of British styles, so S-04 could be my mainstay for many of those. I use that yeast the most often, with US-05 in 2nd place. I could easily go through a chunk of a brick in the 2-3 years I'd have. Maybe find another brewer nearby to split a brick.

I see it on Amazon for $77 a brick, which works out to about 15 cents a gram or $1.77 for the equivalent to a 11.5g packet. At that rate I could pitch 2.5 times that for the cost of a single packet.

Keeping it sterile all that time with repeated opening of the jar and scooping would be my concern.

Gary has one of those sealers (seal a meal?) that pulls a seal on a mason jar. He keeps it in the freezer, dips with a sanitized teaspoon, and seals it back up. He is gentle with the lid and re-uses it. He might keep the yeast in the fridge. He does hops that way too, and keeps those in the freezer.

 

[McMullan]

FTR, I believe Omega upped the amount of yeast in their standard home brew packs by 50%. Of course the price went up commensurately.

Unless you can get the packs at their freshest I don’t think this model works for wet yeast, due to the high cell death rate. A starter remains necessary. I’m not paying extra for that, which is one of the reasons I don’t use Omega Yeast. If anything I’d like to see much smaller (and cheaper) wet yeast packs, because we need to culture them up at home anyway. So my preferred model for wet yeast suppliers is very different. I’d be happy with less than 11g for a tenth of the price. So it looks like both dry and wet manufacturers need to reevaluate their model for home brewers.

 

[bwible]

I mean, I'd like more yeast too if the cost is the same, but liquid or dry, if you're brewing a higher OG beer you're gonna need more packets or a starter

But who gives you more of anything for the same price? Manufacturers have 2 ways to cut costs and increase profits - raise the price or give you less for the same price

 

[jtgoral]

This is my way of dealing with the pitch rate.

I have 2L flask and 6 x 1qt Bell's jars. I add 105g of DME to each jar and fill up with water. Then I water can those jars for 10 minutes when it starts to boil. The same way of water canning as when making fruit jams. I have now solution for 6 starters. For me it is 4 months of making beers.

To make the starter I get one cold jar content to the flask, shake it until it is full of foam and empty one yeast packet into it. Then I close it with an airlock. I stir the flask couple times during next 24 hours. I brew on the next day. My fermentation starts in ~6 hours.

 

[McMullan]

Another way of looking at it, as the customer, is who wants to sell me something for a fair price? Again, I can get high quality dry baker's yeast for a fraction of a dry brewer's yeast, even though thery're essentially the same thing, biologically and practically.

Edit: I bake bread with the baker's yeast, in case anyone wondered.

 

[bwible]

I don’t know why people insist they have to make a starter with liquid yeast. All the companies advertise pitchabe yeast. I always try to get several uses out of one pack. I brew light to dark, weak to strong - same way beer judges judge beer. If my first beer is in the 1.040 range I’m good. Then I pitch subsequent beers onto the built up yeast cake from the previous beer.

 

[soccerdad]

Both Mauribrew (Australia) and Apex Cultures (Sweden) are selling 500g bricks in the US for around $66.00. So if you have a way to safely store and dole out on a per brew basis, you could be using dry yeast for between $1.50 and $3.00 per 5 gallon batch.
Maybe not a great situation for individual brewers, but I could see brew clubs benefiting from it.

Edit - My guess is that both mentioned above are a repackage of someone else's yeast. Cellar Science too. But I have nothing to back that up. Just a bunch of hunch.

 

[TestTickle]

I don’t know why people insist they have to make a starter with liquid yeast. All the companies advertise pitchabe yeast. I always try to get several uses out of one pack. I brew light to dark, weak to strong - same way beer judges judge beer. If my first beer is in the 1.040 range I’m good. Then I pitch subsequent beers onto the built up yeast cake from the previous beer.

Well call me crazy, but I'm not going to rack an IPA onto a Hefeweizen yeast cake or a porter onto Saison yeast.

 

[McMullan]

Apex Cultures culture and package their own yeasts. Probably similar strains as other manufacturers. I think they were supposed to culture and package kveiks a few years back, but the contract talks failed. Wannabe kveik barons had expectations of becoming billionaires flogging peasant cultures. Repackagers are small time and best avoided - could be as bad as a numpty with a teaspoon, a box of sealable packets and an eBay account. Reputable suppliers without production facilities, e.g., branded homebrew kit suppliers, are going to contract out production to one or two of many production plants around the world. It doesn't matter whether it's brewer's yeast, baker's yeast or a yeast specified as a nutrient supplement for pig feed, etc. You'll find some pretty slick marketing spiel with some of the big firms. They'll present a dozen good reasons why you should buy from them. A dozen benefits associated with active dry yeast generally, not really anything special they claim to do. It's all marketing.

 

[TestTickle]

Keeping it sterile all that time with repeated opening of the jar and scooping would be my concern.

That was my concern as well, but I have found dry yeast to be so robust that with a reasonable cleanliness, sanitation and storage routine, it's a lot harder to screw it up than we think.

 

[McMullan]

Well call me crazy, but I'm not going to rack an IPA onto a Hefeweizen yeast cake or a porter onto Saison yeast.

I don't think anyone expects you to either. To get the most (the best) out of any yeast it pays to repitch at last a few times. There's no substitute for repitching the best yeast possible at no cost.

 

[TestTickle]

I don't think anyone expects you to either. To get the most (the best) out of any yeast it pays to repitch at last a few times. There's no substitute for repitching the best yeast possible at no cost.

Oh I know and understand that. The comment was directed at those who question why anyone wastes time making starters. What may be ideal for some brewers is not ideal for others.

 

[VikeMan]

Regarding repitching... The price can't be beat. And very often, it's convenient. But viability and vitality isn't as good as a fresh pitch of commercially produced yeast. Breweries who repitch are compensating for that with the sheer volume of yeast repitched (i.e. very high pitch rates). White Labs and Wyeast can make a healthier pitch than our fermenters can, because they are purposefully culturing yeast rather than making beer.