Dry hopping

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DarrellQ

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Out of concern for introducing oxygen, I've been reluctant to dry hop so far, even though some recipes have called for it. I have believed the beers to be very good and hoppy enough, but I guess I don't know what I could be missing as far as additional aroma. Is dry hopping even necessary? If so, what are some good techniques for doing so? Add to primary? Rack to secondary and then add? I do use a corny keg, so should I dry hop when kegging? Appreciate your input!
 
Dry hopping is a very different flavor that boiled hops. You get a similar aroma to sticking your nose in a bag of freshly opened hops. I've dry hopped a good 80% of the beers I've ever made (because I am a hop head to be honest), and never had an issue with O2. Everyone in the homebrew community freaks out over oxygenation, but unless you're planning on keeping that beer around for months then you're probably never going to tell a difference (so long as you follow best practices). You don't have to rack to a secondary. Throw in the hops once primary fermentation has stopped for 2-5 days (I find 2 days at 60-65*f gets the best result for me). Some people dry hop in the keg, but I've personally not tried this method out of fear of clogging things up.
 
IMHO certain beers are just "bleh" without dryhopping. IPAs and Pales especially. I wouldn't fret about oxidation while adding hops into your fermenter (unless it's a NEIPA), there are many more dangerous opportunities such as packaging. I've seen professional brewers dryhop from buckets on a scissor lift to reach 30 BBL conicals. I've started doing what the above post say though, I don't worry waiting until the fermentation is completed and usually add the dryhops day 2-3 after fermentation stops.
 
Dry hopping is a very different flavor that boiled hops. You get a similar aroma to sticking your nose in a bag of freshly opened hops. I've dry hopped a good 80% of the beers I've ever made (because I am a hop head to be honest), and never had an issue with O2. Everyone in the homebrew community freaks out over oxygenation, but unless you're planning on keeping that beer around for months then you're probably never going to tell a difference (so long as you follow best practices). You don't have to rack to a secondary. Throw in the hops once primary fermentation has stopped for 2-5 days (I find 2 days at 60-65*f gets the best result for me). Some people dry hop in the keg, but I've personally not tried this method out of fear of clogging things up.
I'll try that. Do you throw them in loose or in a bag?
 
I am new to the brewing scene myself, but from what I have read/seen, most people throw the hops in loose and I am following that route. Currently on day 9 of my process and have dry hopped into the primary. Will be cold crashing tomorrow for a couple days then into the keg!
 
Everyone in the homebrew community freaks out over oxygenation, but unless you're planning on keeping that beer around for months then you're probably never going to tell a difference (so long as you follow best practices).
In my experience, homebrewers usually cannot tell the difference because they simply have no way of making a direct comparison and not because oxidation is not a big issue. If you do make the jump to spunding and closed transfers you will actually have a chance to see for yourself what a huge impact that has on beer quality, even more so with heavily dry-hopped beers.
 
I strongly believe that those who say they’ve never had any issue with oxidation is only because they’ve never had a beer turn brown on them. But when your beer changes color, it is an extreme case. Oxidation is a progressive issue and starts with dulling the brightness of the hops and malt flavors and aroma. As @Vale71 said, when you start close transferring into purged kegs and/or spunding, you will see a big change in the quality of your recipes.

As @Hammy71 mentioned, packaging is typically the greatest introduction of oxygen in the process, that said you still want to be quick and careful when dryhopping.
 
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fwiw, unless O2 ingress is minimized to the point of prevention, cold-crashing in a fermenter can be highly problematic in the end...

Cheers!

Interesting.

I have a new plastic fermenter (clear, thin plastic with a spigot). Should I rack from my fermenter to the keg and let it cold crash off of CO2 for a couple of days before connecting to gas? I have heard of airlocks/bungs being sucked in to fermenters during cold crashing.
 
I dry-hop by alcoholic infusion.
Take some vodka at 40%, put your hop pellets (I have only tried with pellets) into it, smell and check the extraction. More than 3 hours and you will begin extracting clorophill and tannins, 3 hours is probably OK, or 2.

After extraction filter the hop debris and add the aromatized alcohol to the beer at the moment of bottling when you add the sugar.

I do this because that not only doesn't add any risk of infection or oxygenation to my normal procedure, but also allows me to decide (by nose) the level of hop extraction. Besides, it gives me ample freedom regarding the choice of the bottling day. If you dry-hop in the fermenter you should stick to your bottling schedule because the longer the permanence of the pellets in your beer, the deeper the extraction, which again IMHO creates the risk of extractions of unwanted substances (resins, chlorophill, tannins). You probably only want the essential oils from your hop when you dry-hop, which forces you to bottle on a certain day.

YMMV.
 
I put the hops in a purge 4-5 times and then drop em in.
When I cold crash it's already on 10lbs carbonating AND crashing.
 

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I ferment in a corney usually 3 gal batches. Here is what I do:
Put my dry hops in a nylon bag, with one of those magnetic nylon stir plate rods. I dump my wort and yeast into my fermenter, and stick the hop bag to the lid with the magnet. When I’m ready to dry hop I give my corney a little jar to dislodge the magnet. Hops drop into the beer and I transfer a couple days later. If you use a purged serving keg your beer doesn’t see O2 until you put it in a glass.
 
I dry-hop by alcoholic infusion.
Take some vodka at 40%, put your hop pellets (I have only tried with pellets) into it, smell and check the extraction. More than 3 hours and you will begin extracting clorophill and tannins, 3 hours is probably OK, or 2.

After extraction filter the hop debris and add the aromatized alcohol to the beer at the moment of bottling when you add the sugar.

I do this because that not only doesn't add any risk of infection or oxygenation to my normal procedure, but also allows me to decide (by nose) the level of hop extraction. Besides, it gives me ample freedom regarding the choice of the bottling day. If you dry-hop in the fermenter you should stick to your bottling schedule because the longer the permanence of the pellets in your beer, the deeper the extraction, which again IMHO creates the risk of extractions of unwanted substances (resins, chlorophill, tannins). You probably only want the essential oils from your hop when you dry-hop, which forces you to bottle on a certain day.

YMMV.
This can still add oxidation. Especially if you shake the vodka with the hops in it, the vodka will be absorbing oxygen and then you’ll be adding it to the beer which can still oxidize it.
 
This can still add oxidation. Especially if you shake the vodka with the hops in it, the vodka will be absorbing oxygen and then you’ll be adding it to the beer which can still oxidize it.

Maybe, but as I do it at the moment of priming the beer, I consider this to be included in the oxygen intake that the beer would have already undergone during the bottling procedure.

Just because I am beginning being more attentive (more paranoid? ;) ) regarding oxidation, I have just bought some ascorbic acid and, when I do priming in the basket (which is also when I do dry-hopping) I will add a little quantity of it to contrast oxidation.
 
I was a fan of dry hopping in my beginnings, now I'm not sure any more if dry hopping really brings an added value to me as a homebrewer compared to the risks.

- Dry hopping will introduce enzymes into my beer, splitting up the longer sugar chains and making new sugar available to my yeast, causing a re-fermentation (also called hop creep). This has already resulted in foam exploding beers in my case, and also it will remove some of the body. Specially for the beers I have mashed in at a higher temp to keep more body... this will be ruined by dry hopping and make my beer
dry. I haven't really found a method against this problem yet...

- There is also the issue of hop burn which I have experienced in most of my dry-hopped beers, they taste like old black tea bags during two weeks after bottling or even longer. I've also had it when cold crashing the beer before adding the dry hops and lowering the dry hop quantities will not eliminate this risk completely and it's such an ugly taste.

I've seen on youtube channels that pretty good hoppy results are made with massive quantities of whirlpool hops at 70-80°C / 160-175°F as high as 200g / 0.5 pounds on a 5-gallon / 20l batch. I will try this next time without all the time consuming and risky dry hopping process...

Any experience with putting all your hops into whirlpool, leaving none for dry-hopping?
 
I strongly believe that those who say they’ve never had any issue with oxidation is only because they’ve never had a beer turn brown on them. But when your beer changes color, it is an extreme case. Oxidation is a progressive issue and starts with dulling the brightness of the hops and malt flavors and aroma. As @Vale71 said, when you start close transferring into purged kegs and/or spunding, you will see a big change in the quality of your recipes.

^^ agree 100% and I will never stop saying it to people who ask this sort of question.

IMO, dry-hopping is not necessary to make pales and IPAs that are tasty, but it is almost essential to get that burst of delicate fruity aroma.

I say "delicate" because in my experience, that is exactly what it is, in the sense that the slightest mis-handling of the beer (especially on the cold side after fermentation, during packaging, etc.) will turn those dry hops from a wonderful enhancement to a "rough edge" on the beer.

For years I've been doing this thing where I split 10gal batches of pale ales into 2 fermentors, and only put dry hops in one of them. I also sometimes use different yeasts. The idea is to get 2 slightly different beers from one batch, for some variety on my taps. Before I got a process in order whereby the fermentors never get opened until I have to clean them, there was not a single brew - out of a few dozen - where the dry hopped version was better than the non-dry-hopped version. Not a single one. And it has nothing to do with me not liking hops; it has everything to do with dissolved oxygen turning those dry hops from a lovely citrusy aroma to a dull, harsh aftertaste. YMMV, but after all this first hand experience, nobody is going to convince me that oxygen doesn't have a profound effect on hoppy beers.
 
- Dry hopping will introduce enzymes into my beer, splitting up the longer sugar chains and making new sugar available to my yeast, causing a re-fermentation (also called hop creep). This has already resulted in foam exploding beers in my case, and also it will remove some of the body.

I haven't really found a method against this problem yet...

[...]

Any experience with putting all your hops into whirlpool, leaving none for dry-hopping?

In order to avoid the re-fermentation, maybe a possibility could be to store your beer cold (something like 14°C, or less) so that the refermentation caused by the enzymes, which is probably temperature-dependent, is slowed down enough to allow you to drink a mature beer without explosions and other problems.

It seems to me that putting hops into whirlpool will avoid the oxygenation problems but not the "hop creep" because you are introducing non-deactivated enzymes into your wort in any case.
 
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I think dry hopping and then hopping in keg gives a much more significant hop flavor than you get any other way. I was never happy with how quickly the dry hops faded when bottling though - I got to a point where I gave up on bottling really hoppy beer. Even the keg hop presence diminishes and evolves over time but the window where it is in peak condition is quite a bit wider.

An interesting comparison between the effects of whirlpool hops and dry hops:

https://brulosophy.com/2016/02/29/hop-stand-vs-dry-hop-exbeeriment-results/
 
I dry-hop by alcoholic infusion.
Take some vodka at 40%, put your hop pellets (I have only tried with pellets) into it, smell and check the extraction. More than 3 hours and you will begin extracting clorophill and tannins, 3 hours is probably OK, or 2.

After extraction filter the hop debris and add the aromatized alcohol to the beer at the moment of bottling when you add the sugar.

I do this because that not only doesn't add any risk of infection or oxygenation to my normal procedure, but also allows me to decide (by nose) the level of hop extraction. Besides, it gives me ample freedom regarding the choice of the bottling day. If you dry-hop in the fermenter you should stick to your bottling schedule because the longer the permanence of the pellets in your beer, the deeper the extraction, which again IMHO creates the risk of extractions of unwanted substances (resins, chlorophill, tannins). You probably only want the essential oils from your hop when you dry-hop, which forces you to bottle on a certain day.

YMMV.
That's nice. I am trying something like this with high proof alcohol, 95%. 1g/50ml. 5 hours is enough. More than this, still good, but it extracts a lot o of "green" taste. Chlorophyll, probably. Also gets bitterness too, non-isomerased alpha acids and other resins. Direct in the beer or anything alse, produce a strong ooze effect, that doesn't seems to fade away. I bottled some beer, in the same way you do. 2, 4 and 6 ml each one, for 600 ml, at priming.
I'm worried about head retention, because the direct adition made the foam disappear. Have you ever had this issue? How does it worked for you?
 
That's nice. I am trying something like this with high proof alcohol, 95%. 1g/50ml. 5 hours is enough. More than this, still good, but it extracts a lot o of "green" taste. Chlorophyll, probably. Also gets bitterness too, non-isomerased alpha acids and other resins. Direct in the beer or anything alse, produce a strong ooze effect, that doesn't seems to fade away. I bottled some beer, in the same way you do. 2, 4 and 6 ml each one, for 600 ml, at priming.
I'm worried about head retention, because the direct adition made the foam disappear. Have you ever had this issue? How does it worked for you?

I have always used "grappa strenght" for this kind of dry hopping, and never passed the 3-hours mark. The idea is extracting the most volatile essential oils, leaving all the rest behind.
Did not have head retention problems, but I must also say that I am not very attentive to this aspect.

The reason why I don't use 95% strenght is that I find it impossible to judge extraction "by nose", the alcohol vapours being too offensive. At 40% one can have an idea of the progress of the extraction.
 
T
I have always used "grappa strenght" for this kind of dry hopping, and never passed the 3-hours mark. The idea is extracting the most volatile essential oils, leaving all the rest behind.
Did not have head retention problems, but I must also say that I am not very attentive to this aspect.

The reason why I don't use 95% strenght is that I find it impossible to judge extraction "by nose", the alcohol vapours being too offensive. At 40% one can have an idea of the progress of the extraction.
Thanks for the reply.
That's right, until you don't dilute it, smells only like ethanol. Hard to know.
My first try was with polaris, added bitterness and a lot of flavour in a commercial pilsener, straight to the pint. Recently, I brewed an brown IPA and added the hop tincture at bottling, like i said before. It should be ready in the next weekend. I shall post the results here.
 
I am considering buying a separate distiller for the extraction of essential oils, hydrosols and such. When I buy it, I think it might be interesting to experiment with some hop essence. Although I have to study the matter further, I suppose that by distillation (either in alcoholic vapour or in water vapour) one can extract only the essential oils, leaving the bitter resins in the kettle. That might be a way to add hop aroma without exceeding with the bitterness.
 
I love brewing NEIPAs too but always had problems with the aroma fading and the beer eventually darkening. About a year ago I decided to change my process on these type beers and the difference was dramatic. They now hold that aroma much longer and keep that yellow/orange glow. I know it is impossible to eliminate 100% oxygen from the process but these are the changes I made that really made a huge difference in my NEIPAs.
1) Only primary fermentation - no racking to secondary.
2) Built a CO2 purge-able dry-hopper similar to NewJersey's a few posts up and add my dry hops through that.
3) During coldcrash, I use a cask breather. This device allows Co2 in at atmospheric pressure during the crash. This prevents suckback and does not carbonate the beer.
4) Prior to kegging I completely fill the keg with starsan and push it out with Co2 and then closed transfer the beer. (only kegs, no bottling)

Using these steps I think I am preventing as much oxygen contact as I possibly can and the difference is night and day.
 
As I wrote above, I tested the hop tincture. I crack open the first bottle today. It had an persistent hazeness, but the foam was ok. A lot of aroma and flavour, better than dry hopping. A little bit more bitterness than the control beer (no tincture), but in overall, it was awesome.
 
As I wrote above, I tested the hop tincture. I crack open the first bottle today. It had an persistent hazeness, but the foam was ok. A lot of aroma and flavour, better than dry hopping. A little bit more bitterness than the control beer (no tincture), but in overall, it was awesome.
How are you scaling it so that you can definitely say the tincture was better than dryhoping?

What dryhoping rate was it compared to and what was the volume of the beer you dryhoped?

How’d you create the tincture-how much hops and what volume of spirit? How did you add it and what was the volume of beer did you add it to?
 
Well, there's some information in the discussion above. But, anyway. I had dry hoped before. 25 g of Polaris and 25 g of challenger, in 23 L of beer, if I recall correctly. Not even close to the tincture, that I made with 1 g of polaris and 50 mL of 95% grain alcohol. I added only 2 ml in a 600 ml bottle, at bottling, and there was a considerable difference.
 
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Well, there's some information in the discussion above. But, anyway. I had dry hoped before. 25 g of Polaris and 25 g of challenger, in 23 L of beer, if I recall correctly. Not even close to the tincture, that I made with 1 g of polaris and 50 mL of 95% grain alcohol. I added only 2 ml in a 600 ml bottle, at bottling, and there was a considerable difference.

Follow me on my math to see if I’m missing anything here

Dryhop math
23 L = 23,000 ml

50 g / 23,000 ml = 0.00217 g/ml hopping rate

Bottled tincture
1g / 50 ml = 0.02 g/ml

Then you used 2 ml so added 0.04 grams to you bottles. But it would now get diluted when added to the bottle.

0.04 g / 600 ml = 0.00006 g/ml hopping rate
____________________________________

So your dryhoped bottles would end up having 1.3 grams per bottle (0.00217 x 600)

And the tincture bottles would what 0.04 grams per bottle. I can’t personally see how this could possibly produce more of a hop character.

But this will all change if the tincture beer was from the same batch with that dryhop and then you just added tincture to one of those beers. If so, of course it had more flavor because your adding more hops to that bottle. Those bottles now have 1.34 grams per bottles

That said it’s only a 3% increase in hops which is interesting that you anecdotally believe it had a massive impact. I wonder if you did a blind triangular test with some friends if they could distinguish the difference
 
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Follow me on my math to see if I’m missing anything here

Dryhop math
23 L = 23,000 ml

50 g / 23,000 ml = 0.00217 g/ml hopping rate

Bottled tincture
1g / 50 ml = 0.02 g/ml

Then you used 2 ml so added 0.04 grams to you bottles. But it would now get diluted when added to the bottle.

0.04 g / 600 ml = 0.00006 g/ml hopping rate
____________________________________

So your dryhoped bottles would end up having 1.3 grams per bottle (0.00217 x 600)

And the tincture bottles would what 0.04 grams per bottle. I can’t personally see how this could possibly produce more of a hop character.

But this will all change if the tincture beer was from the same batch with that dryhop and then you just added tincture to one of those beers. If so, of course it had more flavor because your adding more hops to that bottle. Those bottles now have 1.34 grams per bottles

That said it’s only a 3% increase in hops which is interesting that you anecdotally believe it had a massive impact. I wonder if you did a blind triangular test with some friends if they could distinguish the difference
Water is a polar substance. Even a mixture, like beer, of water and 5-8% of ethanol still a strong polar solvent. Essential oils and soft resins, like polyphenols, alpha and beta acids are apolar, and their solubility in water is minimal. Because of this we boil hops, to isomerize AA, and turn them a little more soluble in water.
Ethanol molecules are polar in one end and apolar in the other. So it solubilize the essencial oils and the resins of hops, and still miscible with water. There is an article that describes the extraction by ethanol. They used 1/15 proportion in a more complex extract operation, and achivied around 90% of efficiency. I used 1/50. Probably got close to they results.
The main difference between the dry hopping method and the extract addition, is the polarity of the medium. Only a small quantity of essential oils solubilize in beer, the other components just don't. While all apolar substances of hops solubilize in ethanol.
When the extract is added to the beer at bottling, it produces a ouzo effect, because of the solubilization of the mixture of ethanol and hops compounds. So, all that has been extracted will be in the final beer. 1 g of Polaris has 4-5 % of oil, 16% aa 5% ba. It's near 200 mg of bitter substances. Divide by 50 mL. It's 4 mg/mL. For 2 mL, 8 mg. In 600 mL beer, it would be like 13 IBU addition, or 13m g/L. And it doesn't completely explain how bitter it turns the beer. Maybe the polyphenols does.
Refer to the essential oils, 5 mg, means 0,1 mg/mL. 2 ml, 0,2 mg. In 600 mL, 0,33 mg/L As a reference, many oil compounds of hops have threshold limits ranging from 0,010 mg/L to 0,100 mg/L. Considering that, it should be detectable in my experiment.
The aroma and flavour of this specific hop is mint like. And it really shows up. I didn't try a triangle test. What I have done is open both beers and served to an friend and to my wife, and asked what they think about. My wife prefers the extract beer. My friend the original. Visually, they look like the same to my, but the mint notes was very distinct, as well the bitterness.
So, why don't you give a try and do something like this. It's nice to do experiments sometimes. That's what fascinated me about homebrewing, in the first place.
 

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Much of the aroma compounds in hops don’t need to be extracted through high levels of alcohol. Elevated Alcohol levels can easily be a solvent and speed up the process but its not necessary.

http://scottjanish.com/what-we-know-about-dry-hopping
Scroll down to contact time. If you want more info on the matter follow the link to the shellhammer study. It definitively found that the extraction of most prevalent compounds occurs within the first 24 hours.

also note that the best of the best breweries making hoppy beers are using pelletes or co2/cryogenic extracted concentrates.
 
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I was a fan of dry hopping in my beginnings, now I'm not sure any more if dry hopping really brings an added value to me as a homebrewer compared to the risks.

- Dry hopping will introduce enzymes into my beer, splitting up the longer sugar chains and making new sugar available to my yeast, causing a re-fermentation (also called hop creep). This has already resulted in foam exploding beers in my case, and also it will remove some of the body. Specially for the beers I have mashed in at a higher temp to keep more body... this will be ruined by dry hopping and make my beer
dry. I haven't really found a method against this problem yet...

- There is also the issue of hop burn which I have experienced in most of my dry-hopped beers, they taste like old black tea bags during two weeks after bottling or even longer. I've also had it when cold crashing the beer before adding the dry hops and lowering the dry hop quantities will not eliminate this risk completely and it's such an ugly taste.

I've seen on youtube channels that pretty good hoppy results are made with massive quantities of whirlpool hops at 70-80°C / 160-175°F as high as 200g / 0.5 pounds on a 5-gallon / 20l batch. I will try this next time without all the time consuming and risky dry hopping process...

Any experience with putting all your hops into whirlpool, leaving none for dry-hopping?
Yes, dry hopping brings a unique fresh flavour that cannot be accessed through whirlpool or late additions.

I go the other route, I skip all late additions, do only bittering and the rest is done via dry hopping. Best results for me so far.

Unless I want a beer specifically not to be dry hopped, then I might add a five minute addition. But only for very few beers.

All my American beers get the bittering and dry hop only routine.
 
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I think my next experiment with low oxidation dry hopping will be to dry hop in sanitized muslim bags tied off with small diameter fishing line suspended from the top of my fermenter. At the appropriate time I will simply crack open the fermenter slightly to lower the bag into the beer with the string and repressurize the fermenter with CO2 (purging it a couple times). This will allow me to repeat this to raise the bag out of the beer when called for by the recipe and use more than 1 dry hop addition if needed.
 
I think my next experiment with low oxidation dry hopping will be to dry hop in sanitized muslim bags tied off with small diameter fishing line suspended from the top of my fermenter. At the appropriate time I will simply crack open the fermenter slightly to lower the bag into the beer with the string and repressurize the fermenter with CO2 (purging it a couple times). This will allow me to repeat this to raise the bag out of the beer when called for by the recipe and use more than 1 dry hop addition if needed.

I've seen some people use magnets to secure their hop bag to the top of the fermenter so they didn't have to open it up at all.
 
I've seen some people use magnets to secure their hop bag to the top of the fermenter so they didn't have to open it up at all.

i have tried the magnet trick and it worked ok but it doesn’t allow one to remove the dry hops from the beer after an interval. It also is more complicated to add a second dry hopping addition without more magnets. I am hoping the fishing line method would solve these problems.
 
i have tried the magnet trick and it worked ok but it doesn’t allow one to remove the dry hops from the beer after an interval. It also is more complicated to add a second dry hopping addition without more magnets. I am hoping the fishing line method would solve these problems.

Thinking about it, one might have a thin string tied to the hop bag, and getting out of the fermenter through the bubbler. The string is sanitized just as the hop bag.

When the moment of dry hopping comes, the hop bag is let fall into the beer (either with the string, or with the magnet trick),

When the moment of removal of the hop bag comes, just "fish it" with the string which is attached to it and raise it above the beer level.

The fermenter is never opened and one can decide both the soaking moment and the lifting moment.
 
I recently rigged up a way of dropping a hop bag in and lifting out without opening the fermenter. It was a bit of a last minute thing, (my first NEIPA and I hadn't realised the potential for oxidation until I started reading forums like this). So I used a t-piece pushed into my bung, with string coming out the top and the side port of the t-piece going off to my blow off tube. I then pushed a bit of tube onto the t-piece with a tube clamp so I could lock the string in place until it was time to drop the bag in. I discovered I had CO2 leaking past the string/tube clamp arrangement so I used an ear plug to plug the tube. It looked a bit odd but it worked and it allowed me to lift the bag, drain a bit then drop it back in again.

hopbagdropper.jpg


I have what may be a better solution now though, although I haven't tested it.

I got some small bungs and I've drilled a string sized hole through one of them and fed the string through. I will then drill a small hole in the lid of my fermenter for the bung or maybe use the bung in the end of the t-piece. I am hoping that the bung/string will be gas tight enough. I intend on using a small clamp on the string above the bung until its ready to drop in.

The bungs I got are rubber but I think a silicone one would be better. It also occurred to me that with the large bung I have I could probably drill a small hole through it to one side and bypass the small bung / t-piece thing all together. I might get a spare bung before I try that though.


hopbagdropper_v2.jpg
 

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