Dry Hopping : Hops and yeast at the beginning of fermentation ......

[Barão]

I have obtained excelentt results ....without racking ...without purging with CO2 ... 7 days of Fermentation ...3 days of cold crashing ..and botting

Most homebrewers’ first reaction to this is that it is not as efficient as dry-hopping in secondary. The theory is that dry-hopping in primary allows carbon dioxide bubbles to carry off the aroma compounds from the beer.

The aroma compounds from hops are contained in the hop oils, which are not volatile enough to be carried off by CO2 bubbles. The only reason they dissipate in the boil is because they are, well, boiled. This process is being experimented with some at the homebrew and commercial brewing levels

Has anyone tried ?

 

[sibelman]

The earliest I've dry hopped is just after peak fermentation. Many here have worried that hop aroma pouring out of air locks and blow-off tubes means less aroma (and flavor?) in the beer.

Given the strong aroma, there's at least some loss, notwithstanding the volatility of oils. Some aromatics found in hops apparently have greater volatility than others. Perhaps the loss isn't large?

 

[Barão]

The earliest I've dry hopped is just after peak fermentation. Many here have worried that hop aroma pouring out of air locks and blow-off tubes means less aroma (and flavor?) in the beer.

Given the strong aroma, there's at least some loss, notwithstanding the volatility of oils. Some aromatics found in hops apparently have greater volatility than others. Perhaps the loss isn't large?

..... OK....I mean adding it right after cooling...along with the yeast

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Has anyone tried [pitch yeast and add hops at the same time] ?

The MoreBeer Flash Brewing™ kits do this - yeast, hop extract (for bittering), and T90 hops (for aroma/flavor) are pitched at the same time. I've brewed two of the kits and the beers were good. I didn't get "grassy" flavors from either batch.

A split batch using one of the kits (or equivalent ingredients / processes) could be a quick way to approximate any aroma/flavor losses/differences. Split the kit into two. For the 1st batch, follow the recipe. For the 2nd batch, add the T90 pellet hops as a dry hop. Or maybe split the kit into 4: use the kit yeast and another dry yeast strain. I suspect that results will be both yeast strain and hop variety specific.

 

[worlddivides]

For about 6 years or so I did what basically everyone does and dry hopped after fermentation ended, but after reading about dry hopping at yeast pitch, I did two IPAs in a row (not side by side), the first one I did dry hopping after fermentation ended and the second one I added the dry hops at yeast pitch. The one that was dry hopped at yeast pitch had just as much aroma as the one that was dry pitched "traditionally." Since then, I've done quite a few beers like this and the only one that had more aromatics than the ones dry hopped at yeast pitch was one that was keg hopped with a pretty large hop charge in the keg, but that one constantly had hops in contact with the beer, so it's not exactly a fair comparison. I still have done dry hopping at different points, and I plan to do dry hopping in the middle of fermentation for a hazy IPA, but the purpose of these isn't for more aromatics. Like Barao, I've always found the idea that fermentation drives off aromatics to sound kind of suspicious.

 

[day_trippr]

Like Barao, I've always found the idea that fermentation drives off aromatics to sound kind of suspicious

[shrug] If one can smell dry hops from outside the fermentor, aromatics are clearly being lost. It ain't rocket surgery...

Cheers!

 

[worlddivides]

[shrug] If one can smell dry hops from outside the fermentor, aromatics are clearly being lost. It ain't rocket surgery...

Cheers!

I can smell bread being cooked in an oven, but it doesn't smell any less aromatic when it's done cooking. I don't see how being able to smell something means that eventually that smell is going to be gone or lessened. Or if it is lessened as a result, it's just not enough to really be noticeable.

 

[day_trippr]

How could you smell the aromatics if they weren't being shed in the first place? And if they are being shed, how can you believe the source isn't losing them?

Cheers!

 

[worlddivides]

How could you smell the aromatics if they weren't being shed in the first place? And if they are being shed, how can you believe the source isn't losing them?

Cheers!

That kind of assumes that being able to smell something means that the source of the smell is going away. And I suppose to some extent, that might be true, but I can tell zero difference in aroma between both finished products, so even if being able to smell something means it's losing the source of that smell, it's going to take such a long time to lose it to a point that I can notice that it essentially doesn't matter. If it is losing aromatics, it's clearly not losing enough of them to tell a difference.

My understanding is that hop oils volatize at boiling temperatures, hence why the longer you boil hops the less aroma they have. This is one of the reasons why whirlpooling and hop stands are a thing. These temperatures are under boiling, so those aromatics are not volatized but are preserved in the wort. But these are temps around 150F to 180F, which are way higher than the fermentation temps of mid 40s (for lagers) to mid 70s (for ales). And if fermentation could volatize hop oils, wouldn't that undo all the whirlpooling done? All of the oils that the wort absorbed from whirlpooling or hop stands would just get blown off from fermentation.

 

[mac_1103]

That kind of assumes that being able to smell something means that the source of the smell is going away

What else could one possibly assume? You smell things because the odorants are literally entering your nose. So they are by definition no longer in the source.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Another 'data point' (link) that suggests adding hops at the start of the fermentation won't "ruin the beer"

too lazy, won't click (the link)?

• 34 in the Pale Ale category at a NHC regional with a Flash Brewing™ kit.

 

[worlddivides]

What else could one possibly assume? You smell things because the odorants are literally entering your nose. So they are by definition no longer in the source.

I'm not even sure how to begin in responding to that... That's like assuming that if you leave a musty house for long enough, it won't smell musty anymore because the mustiness will dissipate and you'll just have an odorless environment. That's not how smells work. Now, yes, the same smell won't last forever because things change form, but smelling a rose doesn't mean that the act of smelling it is getting rid of the smell of that rose. Hell, even dried roses still smell like roses, just in a slightly different form. And hops do change form over time, though usually not on the scale that a regular fermentation takes place. And most importantly, like I said, I can tell literally zero difference in aroma between a beer dry hopped at yeast pitch and one hopped after fermentation ends. Also like I said, if the specific act of fermentation, specifically CO2 offgassing, got rid of aromas, why would you even bother doing late hop additions in the boil or whirlpooling? All those aromatics you put so much work into putting into your beer would just be blown away due to the CO2 of fermentation. Or is there some "magic" of whirlpooling that protects them at 175F that doesn't protect dry hops at 66F where you'd assume they'd be much more likely to not volatize?

 

[day_trippr]

Wow.

 

[sibelman]

not enough to really be noticeable.

I can tell literally zero difference

Perhaps the loss isn't large?

Some changes in brewing and fermenting process make a big difference. Others make a small or imperceptible difference. It's a perception issue, not a thought problem.

For my part, the question @Barão asked, and the responses @worlddivides added, encourage me to try the (simpler!) process of dry hopping at yeast pitch. Surely there is some loss, as @day_trippr and @mac_1103 emphasize. But given some anecdotal evidence that it's a modest loss (that makes the fermentation chamber smell wonderful!), one could simply add a bit more dry hops to compensate.

 

[mac_1103]

smelling a rose doesn't mean that the act of smelling it is getting rid of the smell of that rose

No it doesn't. The rose is getting rid of its own smell at a constant rate whether you smell it or not. If it wasn't giving up the odorants, then you would not smell anything. That's how smelling stuff works, whether you want to believe it or not.

Getting back to dry hopping, if the vessel you do it in is vented during the process then you are going to lose some aroma. The hops are not some kind of inexhaustible perfect point source of aromatic compounds. Hopping rates have to account for the inevitable losses.

 

[Bramling Cross]

I'm not even sure how to begin in responding to that... That's like assuming that if you leave a musty house for long enough, it won't smell musty anymore because the mustiness will dissipate and you'll just have an odorless environment. That's not how smells work. Now, yes, the same smell won't last forever because things change form, but smelling a rose doesn't mean that the act of smelling it is getting rid of the smell of that rose. Hell, even dried roses still smell like roses, just in a slightly different form. And hops do change form over time, though usually not on the scale that a regular fermentation takes place. And most importantly, like I said, I can tell literally zero difference in aroma between a beer dry hopped at yeast pitch and one hopped after fermentation ends. Also like I said, if the specific act of fermentation, specifically CO2 offgassing, got rid of aromas, why would you even bother doing late hop additions in the boil or whirlpooling? All those aromatics you put so much work into putting into your beer would just be blown away due to the CO2 of fermentation. Or is there some "magic" of whirlpooling that protects them at 175F that doesn't protect dry hops at 66F where you'd assume they'd be much more likely to not volatize?

You smell something because a molecule has interfaced with the olfactory neurons in your schnozola. When that molecule is in your schnozola it is not also in your beer. I do applaud your championing of Aristotelian hylomorphism, though.

The important thing is that it sounds like you're getting enough hop compounds into the finished beer--and that's what matters. I personally prefer to dry hop in a dedicated hopping keg before transferring into a serving keg. When I pour the rare N. American Pale Ale or IPA that I brew, it always stinks up the kitchen. That always bums me out because those molecules are in my schnozola, not my beer.

Edit: having thought about this a bit more since posting, whether you're dumping your hops in with your yeast, or using hyper-modern techniques like me, there's no getting around the "wasted molecules up the schnozola" problem. You're going to lose molecules no matter what you do. I suppose, like most things in homebrewing, it comes down to whether or not you're happy with the beer in your glass.

 

[mac_1103]

Aristotelian hylomorphism

Not in the top 1,000 on the list of things I expected to read on HBT today.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Not in the top 1,000 on the list of things I expected to read on HBT today.

I had my chance, however tenuous, and I had to grasp it.

 

[sibelman]

I had my chance, however tenuous, and I had to grasp it.

Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,
Goethe was fond of his dram, and
René Descartes was a drunken fart,
"I drink therefore I am."

- Monty Python's Flying Circus

 

[worlddivides]

You smell something because a molecule has interfaced with the olfactory neurons in your schnozola. When that molecule is in your schnozola it is not also in your beer. I do applaud your championing of Aristotelian hylomorphism, though.

The important thing is that it sounds like you're getting enough hop compounds into the finished beer--and that's what matters. I personally prefer to dry hop in a dedicated hopping keg before transferring into a serving keg. When I pour the rare N. American Pale Ale or IPA that I brew, it always stinks up the kitchen. That always bums me out because those molecules are in my schnozola, not my beer.

Definitely. And it might partially be a function of me using a large enough amount of dry hops that, even if a certain amount of oils are lost in fermentation that might not be lost after fermentation, it's just not enough for my to perceive (but it might be measurable through scientific tests). Timing of dry hopping (both when the dry hops are added and for how long they're added) does make a difference, but I perceive no difference in aroma or flavor intensity. On the other hand, though, I do perceive a pretty big difference between regular dry hopping and keg hopping, but I think that's largely due to just having the hops constantly in contact with the beer (which I normally only get from gravity samples).

 

[worlddivides]

Getting back to dry hopping, if the vessel you do it in is vented during the process then you are going to lose some aroma. The hops are not some kind of inexhaustible perfect point source of aromatic compounds. Hopping rates have to account for the inevitable losses.

I wasn't claiming that hops have unending amounts of aromatic compounds or that hops (or grains or yeast) are going to maintain the same aroma (or taste for that matter) indefinitely. But I am claiming that dry hopping at yeast pitch or high krausen (both resulting in the hops being in contact with the wort while CO2 is being produced and released) does not result in a perceptible difference in aroma. That said, I can only account for my own palate, and maybe mine isn't as refined as others'.

 

[homebrudoc]

How could you smell the aromatics if they weren't being shed in the first place? And if they are being shed, how can you believe the source isn't losing them?

Cheers!

Just a thought out of left field......maybe those aromatics are so poorly soluble that losing a boatload into the atmosphere doesn't affect what small amount quickly goes into solution and is then detected in the final beer. Just a thought
homebrudoc

 

[Barão]

It is immediately after adding the yeast... there is a yeast lag phase... up to 12 hours... there is no volatilization of oils... there are no CO2 bubbles... the aromas are not perceived
There is no racking... there is no presence of oxygen... there is no need for purging with CO2

 

[HM-2]

But I am claiming that dry hopping at yeast pitch or high krausen (both resulting in the hops being in contact with the wort while CO2 is being produced and released) does not result in a perceptible difference in aroma.

I think it depends entirely on the beer you're brewing. If you're lobbing an ounce or two into a pilsner or an English ale then I can fully believe you won't notice a huge difference, but try that with a hazy DIPA hopped at 20g/L and it's going to be very "not good".

 

[sibelman]

going to be very "not good".

I understand that NEIPAs demand maximum hop aroma and flavor. But have you tried the method you reject? (I note that it eliminates any oxygen concern from the dry hopping process.)

 

[mac_1103]

there is no volatilization of oils... there are no CO2 bubbles... the aromas are not perceived

All of these things do in fact happen once fermentation starts. It may or may not matter, but it is unavoidable.

 

[Gozie Boy]

This discussion smells a bit fishy. Wait ... hmmm, no it doesn't!

 

[HM-2]

I understand that NEIPAs demand maximum hop aroma and flavor. But have you tried the method you reject? (I note that it eliminates any oxygen concern from the dry hopping process.)

Have I tried dry hopping at yeast pitch? Yes, in various styles.

For a very DH heavy hazy or really any heavily hopped beer, your biggest issue has going to be extreme over-extraction of grassy and vegetal flavours from having the beer on masses of hops for like 10 days.

 

[Whisky River]

It is immediately after adding the yeast... there is a yeast lag phase... up to 12 hours... there is no volatilization of oils... there are no CO2 bubbles... the aromas are not perceived
There is no racking... there is no presence of oxygen... there is no need for purging with CO2

I would have thought that during the lag phase there would be oxygen present both in the oxygenated wort and in the headspace of the fermenter. Not that I personally think it matters much in the end.

 

[mac_1103]

This discussion smells a bit fishy.

Check the date on those hops.

 

[Barão]

I would have thought that during the lag phase there would be oxygen present both in the oxygenated wort and in the headspace of the fermenter. Not that I personally think it matters much in the end.

Read it right...I said there is no transfer...there is no oxygen

 

[Whisky River]

Read it right...I said there is no transfer...there is no oxygen

I will happily read it right if you write it correctly. I would suggest working on sentence structure and punctuation to start with.

 

[worlddivides]

I think it depends entirely on the beer you're brewing. If you're lobbing an ounce or two into a pilsner or an English ale then I can fully believe you won't notice a huge difference, but try that with a hazy DIPA hopped at 20g/L and it's going to be very "not good".

You say that, but hazy IPAs are the specific style where hops are added at high krausen. Granted, not yeast pitch, but with all the West Coast IPAs, English IPAs, and so on that I made for years, I added the dry hops according to the common practice of after fermentation had completely stopped. With hazy IPAs, dry hops are most commonly added in the middle of fermentation when CO2 is still pouring out of the airlock (and then sometimes again either near the end of fermentation of after fermentation ends). I imagine people who believe that aromatic oils are being blown off by pitching at high krausen feel it's a fair tradeoff for biotransformation and what some believe helps contribute to the characteristic haze. And often hazy IPAs do this in a way that the hops are only in contact with the beer for 2-3 days or so (sometimes with one charge for 2-3 days, then removed, then another charge for 2-3 days, then removed), but the beer would still have absorbed the oils that are believed that CO2 blows off (meaning those oils would keep getting blown out of the airlock after the dry hops are removed).

I will mention, though, that I've never added hops at yeast pitch for a hazy IPA, partially because adding hops at high krausen does seem to be one of the characteristic parts of the style, so I have only made the comparisons for more standard American IPAs.

I've never experienced grassy or vegetal flavors from dry hopping, but I've also never gone to as excessive lengths as 20g/L (and I definitely can imagine grassy or vegetal flavors resulting from an extensive length of time using that much dry hops), and I also tend to transfer from fermenter to keg faster on hop-forward beers than on other styles.

 

[Barão]

I will happily read it right if you write it correctly. I would suggest working on sentence structure and punctuation to start with.

I still have a lot to learn... 28 years of beer....rsrsrsrs

 

[Whisky River]

I still have a lot to learn... 28 years of beer....rsrsrsrs

We all do. I like your idea here. I’ll give dry hopping right at yeast pitch a try. Who doesn’t want a way to make the process smoother and minimize oxygenation.

 

[Indian_villager]

This is going to be one of those incredibly hard to debate things. To shake this out you'd need a well defined side by side experiment. This is where I see a lot of homebrew debates go sideways, everyone's flavor perception varies, and what may work with Hop A may not work as well with Hop B. See survivables chart. Some hops contain a higher amount of higher boiling compounds so they will naturally have a lower partial pressure of those aromatic compounds at ferm temp in the headspace of the fermenter, therfore are not getting blown out as bad by the co2 flow from fermentation. There are some where the oils have a higher content of more volatile compounds so you will lose more at ferm temperature. Just remember that when you are not at the boiling point of the aromatic does not mean that the mass flux of the aromatic out of the wort =0. Then there is the added variable of reactivity between certain hop compounds and certain yeasts to release compounds that have a perceptible flavor/aroma impact.

OP, I'm glad you found a process you like. I hope your beers continue to be tasty! The rest of you can Tiger Balm your nips and go make a beer you enjoy.

https://www.yakimachief.com/media/wysiwyg/Survivable-Compounds-CY2023-Poster.pdf

 

[worlddivides]

^That's extremely interesting. It's also interesting because my most recent beer that I dry hopped at yeast pitch contains mainly hops in the "high survivability" side (such as Centennial), whereas my most recent beer with hops on the "low survivability" side (such as Amarillo) used them at flameout (at the very end of the kettle, but with none of them used in dry hopping). I'd have to actually do a test with one beer dry-hopping at yeast pitch Centennial, Ekuanot, and Idaho 7 and then another beer dry-hopping at yeast pitch Amarillo, Willamette, and Cascade to see if (and how much) of an impact it has on my perception of dry-hopped aroma and flavor between the two.

 

[HM-2]

You say that, but hazy IPAs are the specific style where hops are added at high krausen.

Many commercial Hazy brewers have moved away from high krausen dry hopping in the last couple of years.

Where it's used, high krausen dry hops are usually comparatively small (25-50% of the size of post-fermentation dry hops), and will usually favour cryo/LupuLN2 and other hop products without (or with only minimal) green matter for precisely this reason.

Professional brewers also have the advantage of being able to easily dump trub and used hop matter, which only a minority of homebrewers can do, and which obviously minimises contact times.

I don't really buy the notion of "all the flavour blowing out of the airlock", though you doubtlessly do lose some to atmospheric off-gassing.

You can usually accomplish the same or very similar biotransformation outcomes from the residual beta acids from large sub-80°C whirlpools, which is probably why many hazy brewers (that are frequently whirlpooling in excess of 15g/L) see limited returns on high krausen DHs.



FWIW I high krausen DH some of my hazy beers, but don't do so universally, and although I can (sometimes) taste a difference I don't think it's a) hugely impactful and b) necessarily a hallmark of the style. I frequently hop in excess of 15g/L and have gone as high as 26g/L accounting for higher utilisation rates for Cryo etc.

 

[CyberFox]

Now THIS is the type of thread I like to see! I actually posted about this exact subject not too long ago on here. Some had success dry hopping at yeast pitch and others didn't. There isn't really a concrete answer one way or the other.

One question I have is just how much aroma would escape? For example, if I dry hopped at yeast pitch with 12 ounces of hops, would the result be equivalent to dry hopping with something like 10 ounces of hops after fermentation? Pretty hard to tell!

I really like the idea of dry hopping at yeast pitch because it's an easy way to prevent oxidation and have hop creep run its course. Then again, the aroma might be blown out through the airlock, the hop oils might cling to and drop with the yeast, and it might cause grassy flavors...but it also might not! It would be awesome to see some proper experiments on this.

It also makes me wonder how dry hopping at yeast pitch might change the fermentation schedule. I might try dry hopping at yeast pitch, cold crashing on day 10, then kegging on day 13. If it turns out grassy with low aroma, then I have my answer.

 

[Indian_villager]

Anybody friends with analytical chemists? Or have a GC laying around?