Clone Beer Dog Fish Head - Midas Touch

[azoteman213]

I did mine a bit differently. I added the muscat grape juice at flameout. I was concerned about the sterility since it was given to me by the owner of my LHBS in a glass bottle, so that is part of the reason for adding it in the boil but also because I was following the Brew Your Own recipe. I also added the saffron in the last 15 mins of the boil & added the honey at flameout. It tastes great so far but I'm letting it age in the keg for a while, maybe a month or so. I don't have the ability to cold crash so I had to just be patient & let the yeast drop out of suspension naturally.

After doing some more research, I will do it differently next time, much more similar to this technique. I read the article someone posted a link for on this thread where one of the Dogfish brewers said they add saffron in the fermentor for aroma more than flavor. I'm wondering how I'm going to do that..whether to boil it in a little water or just soak it in 95% ethanol for a few days to sanitize it. Also, I just listened to an old podcast interview of Sam Calagione on The Brewing Network where he says they add the honey during the whirlpool above 180 degrees. Since I'm not able to do a whirlpool since I use an immersion chiller, I think I will cook it in a pot on the stove for 45-60 mins around 180 since that's how long professional breweries typically whirlpool. Sam also says they add the muscat grape juice a couple of days into the fermentation. So next time I'll also get one of the sterile cans of muscat grape juice to do that.

Saffron is used in food as well and I read that when a recipe calls for it you can add it to water and let it soak for two hours, or you can used heated water and leave it for 20 minutes and then rub it on whatever you are cooking. You could boil it in a little water and add the water and the saffron to the fermentation vessel, although I do not know if that would be any different than adding it at flame-out (except maybe you avoid having the aroma carried out by the CO2 during fermentation). Your 95% alcohol (or bourbon, or vodka, etc.) doesn't sound like a bad idea since people do it with oak or other additives. I wonder if anyone has had experience adding the saffron directly in the fermentation vessel without issues. At first I was nervous about adding raw honey directly into the fermentation vessel, but after reading about mead makers not boiling there honey and having fine results, I decided to try it. It turned out with a nice honey aroma. I did find one bottle with a black ring around the neck, but haven't seen it on the other bottles so hopefully it was just the one bottle. So far it taste pretty good. Time will tell. Good luck experimenting!

 

[zimmerj81]

In my opinion, it just isn't worth the risk of at least sanitizing stuff before adding it to the wort/beer. From what I understand, honey can act as a vessel for wild yeast or even bacteria. I would at least pasteurize it by holding it at a temp of around 170-180 for 45-60 mins. I wouldn't actually boil it since I believe that denatures it to a degree. One would hope that the yeast in the fermentor will dominate & prevent any other contaminants from growing, but in my opinion, not taking the proper precautions means it's only going to be a matter of time before something goes wrong. Murphy's Law.

 

[sathrovarr]

I can't find any Muscat grape juice concentrate, can I use regular grape juice instead? and lower the water I'm adding to the wort? If so, then how much juice should I add that will match the same sugar amounts?

 

[lurch]

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/...ape-concentrate/alexander-s-muscat-46-oz.html

Although when I brewed I used Alexander's Gewurztraminer it's a little spicer than Muskat and it turned out fantastic!

 

[sathrovarr]

northern brewer don't ship to my country

 

[lurch]

northern brewer don't ship to my country

Yet your profile says New York?

 

[sathrovarr]

Yet your profile says New York?

Point taken. I've edited it.

 

[zimmerj81]

I can't find any Muscat grape juice concentrate, can I use regular grape juice instead? and lower the water I'm adding to the wort? If so, then how much juice should I add that will match the same sugar amounts?

Do you have any homebrew stores near you that also sell winemaking ingredients? I would ask if they can get any. Mine gets it in like twice a year or so.

 

[sathrovarr]

Do you have any homebrew stores near you that also sell winemaking ingredients? I would ask if they can get any. Mine gets it in like twice a year or so.

I've checked all of the wine-making stores but they don't sell it.
But I saw on this recipe: http://www.mrbeer.com/product-exec/product_id/965/nm/King_s_Nectar that they use not concentrated grape juice which I can find in a lot of supermarkets here.

 

[zimmerj81]

I've checked all of the wine-making stores but they don't sell it.
But I saw on this recipe: http://www.mrbeer.com/product-exec/product_id/965/nm/King_s_Nectar that they use not concentrated grape juice which I can find in a lot of supermarkets here.

Yeah, make sure it says "not from concentrate" but I would consider reducing it by half or so by cooking it in a pot on the stove. That will reduce the volume, concentrate the sugars, and sanitize it all in 1 shot.

 

[sathrovarr]

Yeah, make sure it says "not from concentrate" but I would consider reducing it by half or so by cooking it in a pot on the stove. That will reduce the volume, concentrate the sugars, and sanitize it all in 1 shot.

Yeah thats a good idea. Do you know what is the volume of the Alexander's Muscat?
And another question - I bought saffron but I think the threads are shorter than normal, does anybody knows how much saffron this recipe calls for in milligrams? Or maybe in teaspoons?

 

[zimmerj81]

Yeah thats a good idea. Do you know what is the volume of the Alexander's Muscat?
And another question - I bought saffron but I think the threads are shorter than normal, does anybody knows how much saffron this recipe calls for in milligrams? Or maybe in teaspoons?

The volume of Alexander's is 46oz. As far as the saffron goes, I'm pretty sure I used a 1/2 teaspoon. I'd have to check my brew notes to be certain. I wouldn't recommend going by weight as your food scale isn't accurate enough for accurately weighing mg's.

 

[sathrovarr]

The volume of Alexander's is 46oz. As far as the saffron goes, I'm pretty sure I used a 1/2 teaspoon. I'd have to check my brew notes to be certain. I wouldn't recommend going by weight as your food scale isn't accurate enough for accurately weighing mg's.

Oh, I thought ounce is used only as a mass unit... Thanks.
Are you sure half a teaspoon is enough? Because on Mr. Beer's recipe (which is very similar) they are using half a teaspoon for only 2 gallons and this recipe is for 5.

 

[zimmerj81]

Oh, I thought ounce is used only as a mass unit... Thanks.
Are you sure half a teaspoon is enough? Because on Mr. Beer's recipe (which is very similar) they are using half a teaspoon for only 2 gallons and this recipe is for 5.

Northern Brewer said 46oz..pretty sure it meant 46 fluid oz. I checked & I only used 1/2 teaspoon of saffron. A little bit goes a long way. I used mine in the boil & I definitely noticed a color contribution. However, I either read in the article posted in this thread from a Dogfish Head brewer or on a Brewing Network show featuring Sam Calagione that they only use the saffron after primary fermentation for its aroma.

 

[azoteman213]

Hello fellow homebrewers! Just to give an update. I bottled this beer on June 7. I was having carbonation issues (i.e. beer not carbonated after a 3 weeks). I started rousing the bottles every now and then and last week when I opened the bottle it finally had some head and some bubble nucleation on the bottle of my wine glass. I do not know if it was the rousing or just the amount of time it has been in the bottle. When it was flat it was good, kind of like drinking still mead or wine, but did not feel like beer. Now that it is carbonated I feel the flavor has improved and I finally feel like I am drinking a beer. If you bottle condition this beer, please be patient and you will be rewarded. I am just sorry I am down to my last bottles (I probably should have used only 12oz bottles instead of both bombers and 12oz). Hopefully I still have a bottle left a month form now so I can taste it with more carbonation. I crash cooled my last batch and added the same amount of priming sugar and still got carbonation in two weeks. I am no yeast expert, but I am blaming the higher alcohol content for the slow carbonation (I guess the yeasteas can get drunk too) Good luck with to all those that will brew this and those who are still aging some bottles. And if patience fails, there is always kegging. Happy brewing

This is how I did a 5 gallon all grain batch. I brewed it on April 18. I used 13 pounds of pale malt and mashed at 148F (I was worried about attenuation). I added .50 oz of Simcoe at 60 minutes and the 10 threads of saffron at flameout but did not add the honey in the boil. The O.G was 1.061. On the third day of fermentation I added ~2 pounds of mesquite honey (some was left int he bottom of the jar so it is less than that) and the 32 oz of Muscat grape juice concentrate. With this addition and the assumption of 2 pounds of honey I calculated 1.092 OG using beer smith to calculate the gravity of the honey (14 points) and I used the brix to caclulate the amount of sugar added (1.89lb sugar = 1.017 points)*.

I pitched a 2L starter of Wyeast 1056 and fermented between 18C and 19C for the first few days then dialed it in to 18.5C and 19C for the remainder of the fermentation. I transferred to secondary on June 7 and crash cooled it between 3C and 5C until today when I bottled it. The F.G. was 1.006. It had a noticeable honey aroma so I am looking forward to tasting it and sharing the results in a couple of weeks.

I wish all of you happy brewing and I hope you can enjoy your brews soon!

azoteman213

*To calculate the gravity contribution of the Muscat grape juice in a 5 gallon batch:

Since Brix is sugar as a percent by weight (or mass if you want to be accurate), it is important to note the weight (or mass) of Muscate grape juice being added and not the volume.

Can of Muscat grape juice contains 4lb

(32fl.oz/46fl.oz) * 4lb = 2.78lb

Since it is a (wt/wt%) you could use the pounds directly to find out the amount of sugar being added:

2.78lb * 0.68 = 1.89lbs of sugar

If you use BeerSmith and input this amount of sugar it should give you a S.G of 1.017

 

[RachmaelBenApplebaum]

IMHO, i'd skip it. although i haven't had the original, haven't tried mine (with a hint more than what the recipe calls for), nor have i tried it without. So, i can't compare the outcome. Doesn't seem like it does much though.

After having a good amount of the commercial stuff the saffron definitely isn't for taste, but color, and the weird hard-on producing satisfaction of trying to replicate a brew from ancient times.

 

[ThaBrewFather06]

I just read every post on this thread!!!!! This beer is amazing from DFH I will defiantly be trying this brew in the near future. Does anyone know how long it needs to carbonate in bottles before it gets right?

 

[ThaBrewFather06]

After having a good amount of the commercial stuff the saffron definitely isn't for taste, but color, and the weird hard-on producing satisfaction of trying to replicate a brew from ancient times.[/QUOTE]

I can't wait for this epic brew

 

[ThaBrewFather06]

This costs 15$ per 4 PK to buyi think I can duplicate it for 50$ for 5 gal.

 

[mmjguerrilla]

This costs 15$ per 4 PK to buyi think I can duplicate it for 50$ for 5 gal.

It's on bro. We're making still as soon as your red sky ale is done!

 

[ThaBrewFather06]

Currently waiting to bottle this. Can't wait

 

[ThaBrewFather06]

Tasted and moved to secondary today after 12 days. Tasted awesome and had a gravity reading of 1.012 after an OG of 1.080 the ABV is 9.1% and it is super smooth.

 

[Revvy]

This thread popping up for the first time in awhile made me pick some of the original up on the way home, and made me want to brew this. I haven't had this probably since whenever I last posted in this thread...So it's all your faults.

 

[cygnus2048]

Tasted and moved to secondary today after 12 days. Tasted awesome and had a gravity reading of 1.012 after an OG of 1.080 the ABV is 9.1% and it is super smooth.

I think you'll find that your ABV is higher than you think. Don't forget that the OG does not include the muscat concentrate. From information I found it should add about 17pts in 5gal. Including this your ABV calculations yield a value around 11%. Your results seems similar to mine. If the FG would be around 1.026 as the book states, we'd be right around the 9% range.

Someday I will try this again but not until I have a detailed attack plan on how to stop the FG at 1.026. To still be able to bottle condition the choices are limited. Maybe do an all-grain version with a high mash temp? Now that I keg I'm leaning towards cold-crashing when it hits the 1.026 range then racking off the yeast to the keg. This may be overly sweet though... Guess only way to tell is to keep tweaking until perfected. Good luck!

 

[ThaBrewFather06]

I made this recipe different than it is on here, me and my buddy couldn't find muscat grape juice so we steeped our grains And added Pilsen light LME and added liberty hops at 60 min and continually added Nelson Sauvin hops for the last 15 min. It gave it the wine like fruity taste without the grape juice. It's not finished but it tastes really good right now. I think it's really close to the store bought but I'm not opening my last bottle till I'm ready to compare. i think it's gonna be pretty spot on even without the juice the ABV is dead on, and the taste is dangerously good even without being carbonated.

 

[horsepackage]

Brewfather what exactly is the recipe u followed without the juice? .. I'm having issues finding that juice as well... thank you

 

[fizgig]

I am thinking of making this, I found a few sources:

http://home-brewing.northernbrewer.com/brewbeer/Muscat-Concentrate

http://www.barleynvine.com/1060.html

http://www.cellar-homebrew.com/store/product.php?productid=1071&cat=0&page=1

 

[ThaBrewFather06]

http://www.brewmasterswarehouse.com/recipe/821123ed/

 

[ThaBrewFather06]

I compared my brew to the DFH and its defiantly missing the grape concentrate but it is still a great low IBU beer and I'm defiantly going to make it again.

 

[Proboscidea]

I made a 3-gallon batch of this, and it's fermenting at Day 6 right now. A couple of learnings so far:

1) Didn't want to spring for Alexander's Muscat concentrate, so I looked for a grocery stores equivalent. Ta-da: Welch's White Grape Juice concentrate, available in some stores (got mine in Safeway). White, not purple, because of the color. We'll see how it turns out. It may be a bit more "grape"-y than using muscat concentrate, and if does turn out grape-o-rama-riffic, perhaps scale back next time.

2) Added the grape juice concentrate on Day 5. This made the krausen go crazy. Like, the 3-gallon batch in a 5-gallon bucket is touching the lid today (Day 6). So, be prepared for that to happen maybe. I'm using US-05 BTW.

3) Didn't add saffron. The recipe's small amount won't affect the taste one way or another. And the beer is already yellow, so ... meh. Although if we're futzing with the recipe anyway, and want the beer to be yellow-yellow instead of beer-tan-yellow, some may wish to consider turmeric as a cheaper alternative, if you already have some lying around from Indian cooking, for example. Warning, though: it does have a more assertive flavor than saffron. Sort of mustard-rutabaga-ish. Since I already altered the grape juice component, I didn't screw with adding turmeric here. Too many variables.

We'll see how it turns out.

 

[ThaBrewFather06]

I made a 3-gallon batch of this, and it's fermenting at Day 6 right now. A couple of learnings so far:

1) Didn't want to spring for Alexander's Muscat concentrate, so I looked for a grocery stores equivalent. Ta-da: Welch's White Grape Juice concentrate, available in some stores (got mine in Safeway). White, not purple, because of the color. We'll see how it turns out. It may be a bit more "grape"-y than using muscat concentrate, and if does turn out grape-o-rama-riffic, perhaps scale back next time.

2) Added the grape juice concentrate on Day 5. This made the krausen go crazy. Like, the 3-gallon batch in a 5-gallon bucket is touching the lid today (Day 6). So, be prepared for that to happen maybe. I'm using US-05 BTW.

3) Didn't add saffron. The recipe's small amount won't affect the taste one way or another. And the beer is already yellow, so ... meh. Although if we're futzing with the recipe anyway, and want the beer to be yellow-yellow instead of beer-tan-yellow, some may wish to consider turmeric as a cheaper alternative, if you already have some lying around from Indian cooking, for example. Warning, though: it does have a more assertive flavor than saffron. Sort of mustard-rutabaga-ish. Since I already altered the grape juice component, I didn't screw with adding turmeric here. Too many variables.

We'll see how it turns out.

I really feel that the saffron adds quiet a bit of flavor. I have had recipe both ways and there is a BIG difference in the taste. I feel this is the one thing you cannot leave out, it is NOT just for color.

 

[Revvy]

I really feel that the saffron adds quiet a bit of flavor. I have had recipe both ways and there is a BIG difference in the taste. I feel this is the one thing you cannot leave out, it is NOT just for color.

I'm Spanish, I grew up with Saffron in my dishes. I agree whole heartedly that there is a distinct flavor to it, even in the tiniest amount.

People use some common sense here, it's not the MOST EXPENSIVE AND PRIZED SPICE ON THE PLANET just because it lends a pretty color to things...If it were just color, there's other cheaper alternatives.

It lends a subtle earthiness to dishes, you only need a little because it is pretty potent.

I love it "A few springs can't add much to things, so I left it out..."IN COOKING we only add a few strands to things, you DON'T Need to dump pounds of this stuff. It's not like some cheap artificial flavoring agent that folks dump willy nilly. It's not something you hamfistedly use in things, used with discretion and subtlety.....

 

[Proboscidea]

I hear ya. But at the same time, a few sprigs costs a million berjillion dollars, and El Cheapo here wants to see if that expense can be circumvented.

Personally, I'm not looking to make a clone. I'm much too crappy of a brewer to ever hope anything will taste like the stuff it's supposed to, even with the right ingredients. But if it tastes good in general -- if the grocery store white grape juice is not cloying, if it tastes okay without the saffron, if it's balanced and drinkable -- then I'm happy. I like the grape-ness in DFH's brew (interesting & unique), so if mine comes out tasting okay (not a clone, but not vomit-inducing either), I think it would be a semi-valuable data point to share my substitutions & results for the benefit of the more, ahem, "frugal" brewers here. If it turns out barfy, I'll be honest and say so. But on the other hand, if it does turn out barfy, it's probably my technique and/or the grocery store grape juice as opposed to the lack of saffron. I can't wait to try it, though! Yum.

 

[RachmaelBenApplebaum]

If you're ever for a lack of ingredients you'd be surprised how cheap stuff is on amazon as far as bulk/rare spices are concerned. Happy Brewing.

 

[ThaBrewFather06]

I hear ya. But at the same time, a few sprigs costs a million berjillion dollars, and El Cheapo here wants to see if that expense can be circumvented.

Personally, I'm not looking to make a clone. I'm much too crappy of a brewer to ever hope anything will taste like the stuff it's supposed to, even with the right ingredients. But if it tastes good in general -- if the grocery store white grape juice is not cloying, if it tastes okay without the saffron, if it's balanced and drinkable -- then I'm happy. I like the grape-ness in DFH's brew (interesting & unique), so if mine comes out tasting okay (not a clone, but not vomit-inducing either), I think it would be a semi-valuable data point to share my substitutions & results for the benefit of the more, ahem, "frugal" brewers here. If it turns out barfy, I'll be honest and say so. But on the other hand, if it does turn out barfy, it's probably my technique and/or the grocery store grape juice as opposed to the lack of saffron. I can't wait to try it, though! Yum.

Trader joes has enough for four five gallon batches for 8$ . That's 2$ per batch. Not so expensive.

 

[Revvy]

Trader joes has enough for four five gallon batches for 8$ . That's 2$ per batch. Not so expensive.

And you know...it's very good to actually cook with the rest.

 

[planetb]

I am about to make this, Any suggestions on what light malt extract to use? Also what type of Clove Honey would someone suggest? My local store has a store brand for $3.99 a pound..

 

[GluStick]

Hey all, i went ahead and brewed this recipe up about a week ago now. It seems to be doing well in the primary fermenter. I followed the recipe exactly and i have high hopes for this one, probably because it was so expensive to brew :smack: But again, i have high hopes. There has been no crazy krausen or anything yet like i have read about. This is but my third brew that ive done, im a noob still but i have a good teacher that is always in touch. I have never had the commercial brew, but i have heard good things and am excited to try the finished product.

 

[SmCranf]

Let me say that having this as my first beer on tap is both wonderful and dangerous at the same time

Thanks to everyone for the recipe and tweaks!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[phyllobeddo]

I brewed the BYO version of this, kinda. The batch was All Grain, the juice was muscadine juice and I did not use saffron. 2.5 gallon batch. OG 1077 FG 1010, not taking into account the muscadine juice, which was added about 32 hours after I noticed active fermentation. I have no idea what that did to the ABV, which calculates to be 8.8%. I bottled the batch today after about five weeks in the primary. Smells like wine. Tastes pretty good so far. I'll give it several weeks in the bottle. The Wyeast 3787 Trappist HG really comes through in the flavor profile. The honey seems to have fermented out, although there's a hint of it in there.

5 lb 2 row
5 g Willamette 60 min
5 g Willamette 15 min
3 tsp yeast nutrient 10 min
1/4 tablet Whirlfloc 5 min
1.5 lb honey at flameout

Primary
23 oz Muscadine juice added at the 32nd hour of fermentation.

Mashed at 154 for 60 minutes

Fermentation was crazy. Even though this was a 2.5 gallon batch, Krausen hit the 5 gallon mark in a 6 gallon Better bottle!