does all grain beer taste better than extract? or is it just an experience thing?

[unionrdr]

My point exactly,45-70. By the way,if you actually have a 45=70 Sharps,I'd dearly LOVE to shoot it sometime! Damn,I love black powder! I have a TC arms 50 cal hawken that gets 100 grains of 3fg pyrodex & a saboted 200g jacketed hollow point. Same muzzel velocity as a thirty odd six.

 

[Jon73]

All grain is better. I brewed my last extract batch about 2 months ago and, at least to me, it was terrible in comparison. I chucked my malt jar and have vowed to never brew with extract again. Except for the dme I keep for making starters. But that's it.

 

[45_70sharps]

That is not to say that you can’t make a bad all-grain beer. I made two this past year that I did not like.

As long as you are willing to try new things. Come up with a from scratch recipe just to see how things taste, you will continue to get a batch or two that you aren't crazy about.
It's all part of experimenting.

Not to mention that there are extra steps that can be messed up.
Neighbor stops by for a drink while you are brewing and you loose concentration for a bit..... Stuff happens.

 

[Jayhem]

How long does all grain take from start to pinching the yeast? From what i understand its takes a lot longer than extract? How much longer?

It about doubles the time required to brew if you count the time it takes to mill the grain, heat strike water and wait for a 60 minute mash and then 10-15 minutes sparge.

My AG brews taste better than any extra kits I've made but my process has also improved since I switched to AG.

 

[45_70sharps]

My point exactly,45-70. By the way,if you actually have a 45=70 Sharps,I'd dearly LOVE to shoot it sometime! Damn,I love black powder! I have a TC arms 50 cal hawken that gets 100 grains of 3fg pyrodex & a saboted 200g jacketed hollow point. Same muzzel velocity as a thirty odd six.

I've got one! Might not be worth the cost of the trip out to Washington for you though.
I've also got an original 1884 Trapdoor in 45-70. The sharps is strong and can shoot smokeless, do it in the trapdoor and you will have metal sticking out of your forehead!
I've got a 54 caliber front stuffer also. I only use real blackpowder in it. No pyrodex. It's a caplock but I'm going to be getting a flintlock in the next year. I had one in the past but I didn't know squat. It was cheap and I've since learned quite a bit that would make it more fun to shoot and speed up the lock time a LOT.
I also use non sabot, non jacketed bullets only. You have to in the old stuff, and I like the primitive nature of the modern copies.

 

[unionrdr]

I need a conical short rammer for my 50. The hornady hollow pointd need it,but dang them sabots are tight. I learned how to make paper cartridges too. Rolling block rifles can use those. The early ones anyway.But the Spencer carbine is mt hands down favvy for a future buy. I saw a 56 cal one at Fort Larned in KS with this lil unifirm my then 10 year old brother could've worn. And that lil kid stood behind that cannon?! It was like a brass 12 guage comparitively. We need to go shootin sometime. I have been wanting 5to finish fixin my lil tuner to go out to the west coast again...might be fun. Home brews & black powder,yowza!

 

[JPKDetroit]

The reason that all grain seems to be held on a pedestal is because home brewers like slow, DIY type ****. It's that simple.
It's not "better". It's cheaper. It's a little more complicated. It helps new brewers understand different tastes and processes better.
Is some store bought beer "better" than some of my home brews? Probably
Is it more fun driving to the store than brewing? Not for me

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah,that's basically it,jp. As near as I can say,partial mash/AG is cleaner. Better than a well done extract? No,just cleaner. Idk if this makes any sense,but that's as near as I can describe the difference.

 

[BetterSense]

I do extract, but I also do BIAB all-grain.

1) Generally speaking, you can make just about any beer from extract and either a partial mash or steeping grains. I've made plenty of great tasting beer this way.

This is true. However, I find that by the time I waste 30 minutes of time steeping specialty grains, I could have just done a BIAB mash. It's essentially the same operation. I also find that when I take the time to do a partial mash, it takes just as long as a full mash except I'm paying extra for extract to make up the base malt, which is substituting relatively expensive extract for the cheapest part of a cheap grain bill, with no time savings.

On the whole, extract saves me about an hour (which I can spend reading a book or surfing HBT anyway), but costs me a few extra bucks per batch and limits what I can do. It's a good tradeoff for certain styles. I never mash grain for wheat beers, and I'm about to give it up for IPAs.

For apartment dwellers and people who don't have big kettles (yet), extract begins to look more favorable.

 

[the_trout]

Good process makes good beer.
Bad process makes bad beer.

Your choice of ingrediants, whether extract, grain or some combination of both is secondary.

 

[mccullpl]

I was reading 'Brewing Classic Styles' last night (got it for Christmas), and was comparing the recipes to the NB kits I've been making for the last 10 months, and had a bit of an 'a-ha' moment. Please call me out if I'm full of, as I am no expert! I was looking at the NB German Alt, that turned out quite well, but had that extract taste. I've noticed this taste even more pronounced in the two different browns I had brewed too, but not in any of the pale ales. I assumed since the hops are the star of the show in the pales, it masked the extract flavor. Anyway, I noticed that the browns and the alt all used dark extract, whereas every recipe in the book used a very light extract for the base, and much more steeping grain for color and flavor. I'm guessing that is the key to making nice, clean extract beers, but just my theory. I'd love to hear if anyone has an opinion on this...

 

[Shooter]

For apartment dwellers and people who don't have big kettles (yet), extract begins to look more favorable.

Or stove top partials, the five pound partial method I use, Deathbrewer's method, saves me a lot of time in equipment setup and take down versus AG. I can do it using only my five gallon kettle and a paint strainer bag. I sparge the grains in two gallons of water in a bucket for an additional ten minutes and done. Also, I fly sparge with my AG setup, so that adds more time.

Personally, I'm kind of happy to be doing a little bit of everything. It lets me choose the method I have the time and patience for on any given brew day.

 

[masterfool101]

Utilizing late extract additions is also a real important tool, I think, to have in your arsenal if you are an extract brewer. One of the owners of my local shop is an extract brewer, her husband brews AG, and she makes some of the best danged beers I've ever tasted!

This comment caught my eye . .. as this is true of MY LHBS, too. Of course, I glance over at your profile, and sure enough, we live in the same town. I assume you're talking Jade over at HopTech . .. and yes she does!

Given that I'm in Hayward, too, we should probably get together and do a brew one of these days!

 

[Shooter]

I was reading 'Brewing Classic Styles' last night (got it for Christmas), and was comparing the recipes to the NB kits I've been making for the last 10 months, and had a bit of an 'a-ha' moment. Please call me out if I'm full of, as I am no expert! I was looking at the NB German Alt, that turned out quite well, but had that extract taste. I've noticed this taste even more pronounced in the two different browns I had brewed too, but not in any of the pale ales. I assumed since the hops are the star of the show in the pales, it masked the extract flavor. Anyway, I noticed that the browns and the alt all used dark extract, whereas every recipe in the book used a very light extract for the base, and much more steeping grain for color and flavor. I'm guessing that is the key to making nice, clean extract beers, but just my theory. I'd love to hear if anyone has an opinion on this...

In general, I think most people develop extract recipes around light DME and/or LME and then get the colors and flavors from steeping grains. There are certain grains that require mashing. However, the recent availability of rye and munich extracts, along with wheat extract, does open up more possibilities. I would be more hesitant to brew with a darker liquid extract because I would be concerned about the turn over rate/freshness of the extract. Most shops of any size seem to turn out light LME at a good pace as it tends to be a base for a lot of recipes.

 

[Shooter]

This comment caught my eye . .. as this is true of MY LHBS, too. Of course, I glance over at your profile, and sure enough, we live in the same town. I assume you're talking Jade over at HopTech . .. and yes she does!

Given that I'm in Hayward, too, we should probably get together and do a brew one of these days!

Yes, I'm talking about Jade and Roberto at HopTech.

I remember at last year's NCHF when Mike "Tasty" McDole was trying one of her beers and his comment was, "Jade, if I could make an extract batch like this I might not be doing all-grain as much!" She just knows the tricks and what needs to happen to make a good quality extract brew.

Always glad to see other Hayward brewers. Have you been to the meetings or belong to any of the local clubs? If you've ever gone to a Mad Zymurgists meetings we've undoubtedly already met...since I'm kind of required to go to them.

 

[masterfool101]

Yes, I'm talking about Jade and Roberto at HopTech.
Always glad to see other Hayward brewers. Have you been to the meetings or belong to any of the local clubs? If you've ever gone to a Mad Zymurgists meetings we've undoubtedly already met...since I'm kind of required to go to them.

Never been to a meeting or joined a club. Have a few friends that brew . . . we get together a bunch. . .but nothing formal. PM me some of the details for those "Mad Zymurgists", and maybe I'll look into it! Sounds like my kind of crowd!

 

[Shooter]

Never been to a meeting or joined a club. Have a few friends that brew . . . we get together a bunch. . .but nothing formal. PM me some of the details for those "Mad Zymurgists", and maybe I'll look into it! Sounds like my kind of crowd!

I'll shoot you some details. Jade and Roberto are both members BTW.

 

[Echoloc8]

I've personally found that my extract brews were more hit or miss than my all-grain brews. I've been AG-only (except for starters and gravity corrections) since the middle of last year, and the quality of my beers has gone way, way up.

With extract (especially liquid), you're at the mercy of the turnover in your LHBS when it comes to freshness, but I don't think that's the whole story. I tend to think of extract/partial-mash brews as "quickies," and as a result I likely don't pay the complete attention to temps, times, etc. that I would with an AG brew.

Now that I think about it, my perception has been that with all-grain you either get it all right or it all can go way wrong, but of course that's only partially true, and hardly moreso than with extract. AG just has more "moving parts," and as such there's more to go wrong.

I may have to make another extract/steep batch one of these days and try extra-hard to hit all the marks. I betcha I'll be surprised.

-Rich

 

[cinderbike]

I was a BIAB brewer from the get-go (I skipped extract), but I will say that when I moved to a full AG system last year it forced me to pay more attention to my processes. I'd concur about it being more about the brewer than the ingredients. I just don't think you have many brewers with little experience doing all grain and so it skews the results.

 

[BreezyBrew]

I'd also like to add that for me, there was a difference. The flavors in the malt of all grain are much more distinct and the flavors seem to be ready much quicker. I'd have to let extract beers sit a lot longer for the flavor to reach its potential.

One of the biggest differences for me was the actual kit formulation. I popped my cherry on a Rye Pale Ale kit where the OG was 1.042. Back then I didn't know what a weak and thin beer that can produce to a novice. I was a bit disappointed. Personally, unless you market the beer as a "light" beer, it shouldn't be anywhere under 1.050. Even then I like to add ingredients to get the body up if it's not a wheat beer.

Lastly, I will say that there's more areas to mess up in all grain, i.e. volume amounts. But once you get three or 4 brews under your belt, it becomes second nature.

 

[peterj]

One of the biggest differences for me was the actual kit formulation. I popped my cherry on a Rye Pale Ale kit where the OG was 1.042. Back then I didn't know what a weak and thin beer that can produce to a novice. I was a bit disappointed. Personally, unless you market the beer as a "light" beer, it shouldn't be anywhere under 1.050. Even then I like to add ingredients to get the body up if it's not a wheat beer.

Just because a beer is under 1.050 OG doesn't mean it's a thin "light" beer. There are plenty of expamples of full flavor beers that can have OGs in the 1.030s even. Dry Stout, Scotch Ale (60/- or 70/-), Mild Ale, and Ordinary Bitter just to name a few. I will say though that I would expect a Rye Pale Ale to have an OG closer to 1.050 than 1.042. I can see how that would be a little thin and weak for that style.

And in response to the thread title, having started with extract and going to all grain, I would say all grain is definitely better. It just produces an overall higher quality beer, and you have more control over your finished product.

 

[Mozart]

First, based on what I've read (I've never brewed AG myself, so feel free to take what follows for what you believe it's worth), the process is more important, and dwarfs whatever difference one gets from ingredient quality, assuming one is starting with a quality extract. Are your sanitization practices good? Are you able to control your fermentation temperature? Did you properly oxidize the wort pre-fermentation? Inadvertently oxidize post-fermentation? Are you getting a good, rolling boil to drive off DMS? How quickly did you chill the wort to pitching temperature? Did you pitch the right amount of healthy yeast?

I'd think any of the above factors can drive the quality of the finished product to a much greater extent than differences in ingredients.

Assuming that one has a good process, one will make good beer either way. If one has a process that could use substantial improvement, one is going to produce sub-par beer either way too.

With a good process, I think it comes down to a personal choice, as opposed to one or the other being objectively 'better'.

Once a brewer has established a good or at least decent process, I think which is better depends on the brewer, how appealing brewing 'from scratch' is to him or her, just in and of itself, and with regard to the additional flexibility in ingredient choices -- balanced against the additional time and equipment it takes.

 

[MuddyCreek]

Well, I started with Extracts, largely LMEs but I very rarely if ever simply used the extract kit as sold. I always added hops or some kind of specialty steep because from the get-go I wanted my beers to be somewhat original. (That lead to quite a few horrible mistakes while I was learning...)

I think All-Grain gives you an opportunity to better understand subtle processes and points in making your beer and consistently producing a specific characteristic or flavor. With AG you start to learn what happens when you add an extra half pound of crystal. Anyone can throw together a bunch of grains in different measures and come up with beer. With time and experience you begin to understand what those grains are doing specifically to the final product.

So ya, I guess I kind of agree it's a DIY thing. But it's also a sense of pride, knowing that you've made a decent and reproducible beer from scratch and you even understood why it turned out as it did. I suppose it's a bit like algebra or chemistry (ya, I went there...) Some people are happy just knowing the formula. They can do the problem and get the right answer but they have no idea why the math works out. Other folks actually understand the MATH. They understand the fundamental crap that goes underneath and therefore they have a much broader base and ultimately can do more complicated and useful problems because they aren't merely tied to the formulae and minor variations.

 

[Magic8Ball]

IMHO AG is NOT better than extract. With AG you have a larger pallet in which to "paint" with. With AG you are in control of what grains go into the mash and how the mash is performed (Same for BIAB). With Extract you are hiring someone else to do that for you. In using extract you compromise: having fewer grain options, you spend less time to brewing, spend no money on mashing equipment however you do spend more money on the product vs AG.

I like AG brewing when I have the time to do it. I still extract brew and will BIAB too. Its all good.

 

[MMJfan]

I started out doing extract and had no experience whatsoever with AG brewing. The extract beers I was making were pretty damn good... Or so I thought.

Over the winter I got into AG doing BIAB and I was amazed at how much better my beers were turning out. I was even converting recipes I used for extract brewing to AG and the difference was pretty significant which kind of surprised me. I was of the opinion that there was no way that AG could be THAT much better than the quality beers I was making doing extract. Well, I was wrong...

Anyways, I won't be going back to extract brewing. BIAB gives me the flexibility and quality of AG and the convenience of extract brewing (although it does add about an hour or so to my brew day compared to when I was extract brewing). So to me, AG is a no brainer...

 

[unionrdr]

I've made some good beers AE,but partial mash BIAB is a bit better so far as being cleaner tasting with a bit better definition. On the other hand,there have been some process improvements since I was AE brewing. With a tweak or two from the new process,I think my AE beers would be better.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I'll start with this... I have had, made and judged some exceptional extract beers. There is a cat. 23 going to finals at the NHC this year that is all extract and outfvckingstanding beer. No, not mine, a friend's who is a whizz at extract brewing. I made some great beers using extract once I learned a few tricks; late extract adds, little to no LME, don't be afraid of simple sugars if you want a dry beer, mash a li'l base malt if you can, etc. But I made just as many, if not more beers where I could definitely taste the extract twang. I've also come across quite a few beers like that while judging. Obvious twang, likely from older LME and or boiling the extract too long. For me, extract was hit or miss, even when the process was quality.

As an AG brewer, I'll be the first to say that I've made some pretty gross beers but in general the quality is much better. At this point, unless my recipe is flawed or I arf something up royally, my home brews are amazing. I attribute most of the improvement to better equipment and most of all better ingredients; i.e. not using stale or maillarded up extracts. But also to the process; an AG brewer needs to pay attention to things like water chem., temperatures and procedures that don't come into play with LME/DME beers. Lastly, and this is generally speaking, AG brewers tend to have more experience, and thus are more likely to produce quality beers time in and time out.

Moral: You can make great beer using both (all three?) methods. That said, AG will bring out your entire potential as a brewer and that's something that extract simply cannot do.

 

[KepowOb]

I'll start with this... I have had, made and judged some exceptional extract beers. There is a cat. 23 going to finals at the NHC this year that is all extract and outfvckingstanding beer. No, not mine, a friend's who is a whizz at extract brewing. I made some great beers using extract once I learned a few tricks; late extract adds, little to no LME, don't be afraid of simple sugars if you want a dry beer, mash a li'l base malt if you can, etc. But I made just as many, if not more beers where I could definitely taste the extract twang. I've also come across quite a few beers like that while judging. Obvious twang, likely from older LME and or boiling the extract too long. For me, extract was hit or miss, even when the process was quality.

Care to expand of the little to no LME part? I'm just getting into brewing and I'm going with extracts to start. My first two kits have been DME only, but it wasn't on purpose, just ended up that way. What is it (apart from the LME being old) that would be reason to avoid it?

 

[Malty_Dog]

It very well may be psychological, but there seems to be something better, more smooth and flavorful, about my AG (and even PM) over steeping grains/extract brews. My PMs are typically still pretty large mashes with as little extract as possible, preferably dry. I also really enjoy the mashing process.

But obviously people are making great extract-only brews, so its all good.

 

[evrose]

I made some great beers using extract once I learned a few tricks; late extract adds, little to no LME, don't be afraid of simple sugars if you want a dry beer, mash a li'l base malt if you can

AH HA!!!!

<jumps off couch and manically points finger at computer screen>

You just said "MASH"! So you're saying that the best way to brew extract is to not brew all extract. Gotcha!

(But seriously, I have no dog in this... some of the best brews I've done have been extract. My BIAB brews have ranged from awesome to undrinkable mistakes. Extract is a LOT easier to achieve a baseline of consistency with. It's more forgiving.)

Ultimately, it's all beer...