Does a failure to 'mash out' potentially lead to thinner beer?

[Silver_Is_Money]

If one foregoes the mash-out step (wherein emzymes are denatured), and goes directly to the run-off step instead, will the inevitable lower temperatures experienced within the collection kettle re-kindle Beta-Amylase activity and chop up many of the less fermentable sugars formed by Alpha-Amylase, thus making for a highly fermentable wort which may potentially result in a thinner beer?

 

[Big Monk]

If one foregoes the mash-out step (wherein emzymes are denatured), and goes directly to the run-off step instead, will the inevitable lower temperatures experienced within the collection kettle re-kindle Beta-Amylase activity and chop up many of the less fermentable sugars formed by Alpha-Amylase, thus making for a highly fermentable wort which may potentially result in a thinner beer?

Short answer? No. Especially considering that you are (or should be) already heating to boil temps.

 

[RM-MN]

Beta amylase is quickly denatured at typical mash temperatures so it shouldn't have much effect at the end of the mash period. Couple that with heating toward boil and the answer is no.

 

[Big Monk]

Beta amylase is quickly denatured at typical mash temperatures so it shouldn't have much effect at the end of the mash period. Couple that with heating toward boil and the answer is no.

Bingo Bango.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

So even if one mashes for 60 minutes at 149 degrees F. most of B-Amylase is denatured. That's good to know.

Then mash-out is primarily intended to denature A-Amylase, correct?

Since I mash in a cooler, I have not been mashing out. And I have not fired up the kettle to heat toward the boil step until all run-off is already completed (this being the area of my concern leading to this thread). I'm doing no-sparge mashing.

 

[Big Monk]

So even if one mashes for 60 minutes at 149 degrees F. most of B-Amylase is denatured. That's good to know.

Then mash-out is primarily intended to denature A-Amylase, correct?

Since I mash in a cooler, I have not been mashing out. And I have not fired up the kettle to heat toward the boil step until all run-off is already completed (this being the area of my concern leading to this thread). I'm doing no-sparge mashing.

I personally don't care about denaturing enzymes. I hold a mashout for 10-15 minutes at 172 for foam.

 

[Bobby_M]

And I have not fired up the kettle to heat toward the boil step until all run-off is already completed (this being the area of my concern leading to this thread).

You can save some time by not waiting.

 

[Dland]

^^^Like he said, I turn on BK during fly sparge to save time, used to wait until a few gallons were is so it would not scald, now I've gone electric I have to wait for 4 or 5 gallons in to cover heat element.

 

[couchsending]

I personally don't care about denaturing enzymes. I hold a mashout for 10-15 minutes at 172 for foam.

You mean 162?

 

[Big Monk]

You mean 162?

No. 171-172.

162 is my alpha rest temperature.

 

[brewbama]

I use 170.6 for foam.

 

[couchsending]

Where are you guys reading any info about 170-172 for foam? Everything I’ve ever read in any brewing textbook says 158-162

 

[Big Monk]

Where are you guys reading any info about 170-172 for foam? Everything I’ve ever read in any brewing textbook says 158-162

I'd have to dig for specific references but if my memory serves me right you could find info in Version 5 of Kunze's text (Chapter 3), Narziss's text, Bamforth's "Freshness" and Foam texts, plus any papers that talk about the promotion of Glycoprotiens.

 

[couchsending]

I'd have to dig for specific references but if my memory serves me right you could find info in Version 5 of Kunze's text (Chapter 3), Narziss's text, Bamforth's "Freshness" and Foam texts, plus any papers that talk about the promotion of Glycoprotiens.

If you could I’d appreciate it... I own a few of those books and have never seen that number.. I’ll look too

I was under the impression that the foam aiding glycoproteins were formed from 160-162.

 

[Dland]

Just wondering, I know what foam is, but what are you accomplishing by doing mash outs for foam? So you can skim it off, head retention in beer, or some other brewing subtlety I have missed?

 

[day_trippr]

I believe "foam", in this context, relates to "head" and "head retention"...

Cheers!

 

[Big Monk]

If you could I’d appreciate it... I own a few of those books and have never seen that number.. I’ll look too

I was under the impression that the foam aiding glycoproteins were formed from 160-162.

That’s the alpha rest. Not the only one but an ideal value per the German texts.

I’ll have to do some digging.

 

[Dland]

I believe "foam", in this context", relates to "head" and "head retention"...

Cheers!

Thanks, in that case I get good foam by running sparge water on the hot side, so the mash usually does get up to mid 160'sF near the end, and usually sparge takes around 45 mins. I try to stay below 170F to avoid tannens.

The science and chemistry involved is fascinating though, ....makes interesting reading.

I believe a hearty boil also helps with the foam.

 

[mabrungard]

High temperature is certainly not a cause. If that were true, every decocted beer would be a tannic mess.

 

[Dland]

High temperature is certainly not a cause. If that were true, every decocted beer would be a tannic mess.

So the oft stated"keep mash below 170F to avoid tannens" is just another one of those homebrew forum myths? Actually, I wouldn't be surprised at this point.

 

[couchsending]

That’s the alpha rest. Not the only one but an ideal value per the German texts.

I’ll have to do some digging.

I understand it’s the alpha rest but it also is the quoted rest for glycoprotein formation... it happens to be 72c, maybe some confusion there??? I’ll do some more digging as well but I swear I’ve never read 172 anywhere.

 

[couchsending]

Thanks, in that case I get good foam by running sparge water on the hot side, so the mash usually does get up to mid 160'sF near the end, and usually sparge takes around 45 mins. I try to stay below 170F to avoid tannens.

The science and chemistry involved is fascinating though, ....makes interesting reading.

I believe a hearty boil also helps with the foam.

Here’s a good summary on some of the variables affecting foam... a hearty boil can actually be detrimental. While I sometimes take what these guys say with a grain of salt they are very well read...
http://www.********************/uncategorized/foam/

 

[joegbeer]

Related: Does failure to mashout change the pre-boil gravity?

 

[couchsending]

Related: Does failure to mashout change the pre-boil gravity?

Shouldn’t

 

[Big Monk]

I understand it’s the alpha rest but it also is the quoted rest for glycoprotein formation... it happens to be 72c, maybe some confusion there??? I’ll do some more digging as well but I swear I’ve never read 172 anywhere.

Right. My confusion was that you get glycoprotein formation between 72-78 so you catch quite a bit during the alpha rest and then some on the way up to and including the MO step.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Soulshine2]

So even if one mashes for 60 minutes at 149 degrees F. most of B-Amylase is denatured. That's good to know.

Then mash-out is primarily intended to denature A-Amylase, correct?

Since I mash in a cooler, I have not been mashing out. And I have not fired up the kettle to heat toward the boil step until all run-off is already completed (this being the area of my concern leading to this thread). I'm doing no-sparge mashing.

I dont do a "mashout" ,BUT most of the premeasured AG kits I buy usually come with written instruction for a pre-calculated step mash temps and an alternate single mash infusion temp to hit ,target gravities ,volumes ,hop schedules and such that have been proven in the company brew houses in order for the home brewer consumer to achieve a beer similar to what was intended. Mashouts have usually been in the 170*F range for a few minutes.
What I do- I also use a cooler mash tun , and as I batch sparge I run it to my BK and keep it on a low to med temp (I run an electric rig) as I continue to sparge to preboil volume...Just makes my heat to boil time a little quicker.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

High temperature is certainly not a cause. If that were true, every decocted beer would be a tannic mess.

Completely agree.
I suspect that IF there is a temperature aspect to excessive tannin extraction, it is due to temperature-driven pH shifts.

 

[Miraculix]

From personal experience I can say that the foam of my beers, even very low og beers around 1.025, has improved immensely regarding head retention and foam stability since I incorporated a 77.5c (172f) 15min mashout step. Haven't witnessed any detrimental aspects of this step.

 

[mabrungard]

Related: Does failure to mashout change the pre-boil gravity?

Definitely does!

I always mashout since I brew on a RIMS and its easy to perform a mashout step. I routinely see a 1 to 2 Brix increase in wort gravity after the mashout.

Is mashout necessary? No. But it’s worthwhile when its easy.

Regarding thinner beer, I hadn’t thought about that before. Given that a proper mashout does add some gravity, I guess that some of that extract does add components that aid head production. Looking back, my beers always produce good head.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

A Brulosophy Exbeeriment carefully Vorlaufed one beer before run-off and totally skipped the Vorlauf and went straight to run-off with an identical batch. All sorts of hull and grist yuckies thereby went into one batch intentionally before the boil, and I believe they may have even tossed in an extra handful of the grist residue yuckies for good measure. As I recall, no tannins were formed during the subsequent boil for either batch, and the 44 strong taste test panel could not statistically distinguish between the two beers. And finally, when only those among the panel who correctly picked the odd beer out were asked which beer they preferred most, it was about 2:1 in favor of the beer that was never Vorlaufed to set the filter bed prior to run-off.

Since mashing out at 172 degrees does not make tannins, and boiling hulls and grist doesn't either, that leaves only run-off pH as the culprit.

 

[mabrungard]

Since mashing out at 172 degrees does not make tannins, and boiling hulls and grist doesn't either, that leaves only run-off pH as the culprit.

Um, no! The other culprit is the osmolality of the solution. When the wort gravity is high, the ability to draw tannins and silicates out of the grain and husk bits is very low. As the wort gravity gets lower, the tannins and silicates are drawn into solution by the increased osmotic stress. Think of the sugars as pushing back on the tannins and silicates in the various grain and husk cells, keeping them in their cells. When the sugars have been depleted (low gravity condition), those components can make their way out of the cells.

 

[couchsending]

Definitely does!

I always mashout since I brew on a RIMS and its easy to perform a mashout step. I routinely see a 1 to 2 Brix increase in wort gravity after the mashout.

Is mashout necessary? No. But it’s worthwhile when its easy.

Regarding thinner beer, I hadn’t thought about that before. Given that a proper mashout does add some gravity, I guess that some of that extract does add components that aid head production. Looking back, my beers always produce good head.

Martin do you think that’s due to the fact that the viscosity of the wort is going down so you’re getting better flow through the grain bed? I don’t mash out but will do a 20-30 minute rest at 162 and definitely see an increase in gravity by the end of that rest.

 

[Vale71]

Martin do you think that’s due to the fact that the viscosity of the wort is going down so you’re getting better flow through the grain bed? I don’t mash out but will do a 20-30 minute rest at 162 and definitely see an increase in gravity by the end of that rest.

I think it's more related to the fact that solubility increases with temperature, so extraction efficiency could be increased by higher mashout temps.

 

[Vale71]

As I recall, no tannins were formed during the subsequent boil for either batch, and the 44 strong taste test panel could not statistically distinguish between the two beers.

Considering that Brülosophy can only measure gravity, PH and temperature I think we can regard any statements such as "no tannins were formed" as totally unsubstantiated. As for the taste panel having many members, that's surely no guarantee of quality of results. If I were to randomly pick 44 people in the street and conduct a taste test with them I think we could regard the results as completely worthless.

 

[Vale71]

I'd have to dig for specific references but if my memory serves me right you could find info in Version 5 of Kunze's text (Chapter 3), Narziss's text, Bamforth's "Freshness" and Foam texts, plus any papers that talk about the promotion of Glycoprotiens.

I wasn't sure myself so I just checked. As a matter of fact Narziß quotes a rest at 70-72°C (that would be 158-162°C) with a duration between 60 and 90 minutes as favorable for increased head retention through the formation of glycoproteins. 75-75°C is just quoted as a mashout step with no mention of any effect on head retention.

 

[Vale71]

So the oft stated"keep mash below 170F to avoid tannens" is just another one of those homebrew forum myths? Actually, I wouldn't be surprised at this point.

I can assure you that sparge water temperature is managed very carefully in commercial operations for this very reason, so it's definitely not a myth.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Considering that Brülosophy can only measure gravity, PH and temperature I think we can regard any statements such as "no tannins were formed" as totally unsubstantiated.

Correct! I should have stated it more properly such that there were likely no greater level of tannins (specifically such as would be detected and perceived negatively) generated by either batch. What I find most interesting of all is that among only those who (correctly, or by random luck) claimed to have tasted a difference, the preference went a significant 2:1 for the batch most likely perceived by all to wind up negatively off in taste due to poor procedure. If in fact the no Vorlauf batch had more tannins, they must have been perceived positively.

 

[Vale71]

Um, no! The other culprit is the osmolality of the solution. When the wort gravity is high, the ability to draw tannins and silicates out of the grain and husk bits is very low. As the wort gravity gets lower, the tannins and silicates are drawn into solution by the increased osmotic stress. Think of the sugars as pushing back on the tannins and silicates in the various grain and husk cells, keeping them in their cells. When the sugars have been depleted (low gravity condition), those components can make their way out of the cells.

Spot on, although there is still definitely an increase in tannin extraction with decoction but that is generally perceived to be beneficial as it contributes to the "grainy" taste that one is usually aiming for when choosing to do decoction. In commercial operations if one does want to completely avoid increasing tannin extraction but still do one or more decoction steps there is a special process called "Kubessa Verfahren" that requires separating the husks from the grist via very sophisticated mills. The husks are then not added to the mash until all the decoction steps have been performed, possibly as late as mashout.

 

[Vale71]

If in fact the no Vorlauf batch had more tannins, they must have been perceived positively.

I think as with anything else in beer or in food in general that the dosage is what makes the difference between being perceived as "blech" rather than "I want more of that!".
Tannins aren't bad per se, for one without them tea would really only be (to quote Sheldon Cooper) "leaf soup".

 

[madscientist451]

If one foregoes the mash-out step.... result in a thinner beer?

If you are running off a 20BBL batch, maybe, it takes time to run that much liquid out. But I think the real reason is economy, when you are trying to make a profit, every bit of sugar extraction=profits.
On the homebrew level does it make a difference? I doubt it, but I usually add hot water for the mashout anyway (when I'm not doing BIAB).