Does a failure to 'mash out' potentially lead to thinner beer?

[mabrungard]

Since mashing out at 172 degrees does not make tannins, and boiling hulls and grist doesn't either, that leaves only run-off pH as the culprit.

Um, no! The other culprit is the osmolality of the solution. When the wort gravity is high, the ability to draw tannins and silicates out of the grain and husk bits is very low. As the wort gravity gets lower, the tannins and silicates are drawn into solution by the increased osmotic stress. Think of the sugars as pushing back on the tannins and silicates in the various grain and husk cells, keeping them in their cells. When the sugars have been depleted (low gravity condition), those components can make their way out of the cells.

 

[couchsending]

Definitely does!

I always mashout since I brew on a RIMS and its easy to perform a mashout step. I routinely see a 1 to 2 Brix increase in wort gravity after the mashout.

Is mashout necessary? No. But it’s worthwhile when its easy.

Regarding thinner beer, I hadn’t thought about that before. Given that a proper mashout does add some gravity, I guess that some of that extract does add components that aid head production. Looking back, my beers always produce good head.

Martin do you think that’s due to the fact that the viscosity of the wort is going down so you’re getting better flow through the grain bed? I don’t mash out but will do a 20-30 minute rest at 162 and definitely see an increase in gravity by the end of that rest.

 

[Vale71]

Martin do you think that’s due to the fact that the viscosity of the wort is going down so you’re getting better flow through the grain bed? I don’t mash out but will do a 20-30 minute rest at 162 and definitely see an increase in gravity by the end of that rest.

I think it's more related to the fact that solubility increases with temperature, so extraction efficiency could be increased by higher mashout temps.

 

[Vale71]

As I recall, no tannins were formed during the subsequent boil for either batch, and the 44 strong taste test panel could not statistically distinguish between the two beers.

Considering that Brülosophy can only measure gravity, PH and temperature I think we can regard any statements such as "no tannins were formed" as totally unsubstantiated. As for the taste panel having many members, that's surely no guarantee of quality of results. If I were to randomly pick 44 people in the street and conduct a taste test with them I think we could regard the results as completely worthless.

 

[Vale71]

I'd have to dig for specific references but if my memory serves me right you could find info in Version 5 of Kunze's text (Chapter 3), Narziss's text, Bamforth's "Freshness" and Foam texts, plus any papers that talk about the promotion of Glycoprotiens.

I wasn't sure myself so I just checked. As a matter of fact Narziß quotes a rest at 70-72°C (that would be 158-162°C) with a duration between 60 and 90 minutes as favorable for increased head retention through the formation of glycoproteins. 75-75°C is just quoted as a mashout step with no mention of any effect on head retention.

 

[Vale71]

So the oft stated"keep mash below 170F to avoid tannens" is just another one of those homebrew forum myths? Actually, I wouldn't be surprised at this point.

I can assure you that sparge water temperature is managed very carefully in commercial operations for this very reason, so it's definitely not a myth.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Considering that Brülosophy can only measure gravity, PH and temperature I think we can regard any statements such as "no tannins were formed" as totally unsubstantiated.

Correct! I should have stated it more properly such that there were likely no greater level of tannins (specifically such as would be detected and perceived negatively) generated by either batch. What I find most interesting of all is that among only those who (correctly, or by random luck) claimed to have tasted a difference, the preference went a significant 2:1 for the batch most likely perceived by all to wind up negatively off in taste due to poor procedure. If in fact the no Vorlauf batch had more tannins, they must have been perceived positively.

 

[Vale71]

Um, no! The other culprit is the osmolality of the solution. When the wort gravity is high, the ability to draw tannins and silicates out of the grain and husk bits is very low. As the wort gravity gets lower, the tannins and silicates are drawn into solution by the increased osmotic stress. Think of the sugars as pushing back on the tannins and silicates in the various grain and husk cells, keeping them in their cells. When the sugars have been depleted (low gravity condition), those components can make their way out of the cells.

Spot on, although there is still definitely an increase in tannin extraction with decoction but that is generally perceived to be beneficial as it contributes to the "grainy" taste that one is usually aiming for when choosing to do decoction. In commercial operations if one does want to completely avoid increasing tannin extraction but still do one or more decoction steps there is a special process called "Kubessa Verfahren" that requires separating the husks from the grist via very sophisticated mills. The husks are then not added to the mash until all the decoction steps have been performed, possibly as late as mashout.

 

[Vale71]

If in fact the no Vorlauf batch had more tannins, they must have been perceived positively.

I think as with anything else in beer or in food in general that the dosage is what makes the difference between being perceived as "blech" rather than "I want more of that!".
Tannins aren't bad per se, for one without them tea would really only be (to quote Sheldon Cooper) "leaf soup".

 

[madscientist451]

If one foregoes the mash-out step.... result in a thinner beer?

If you are running off a 20BBL batch, maybe, it takes time to run that much liquid out. But I think the real reason is economy, when you are trying to make a profit, every bit of sugar extraction=profits.
On the homebrew level does it make a difference? I doubt it, but I usually add hot water for the mashout anyway (when I'm not doing BIAB).

 

[mabrungard]

Considering that Brülosophy can only measure gravity, PH and temperature I think we can regard any statements such as "no tannins were formed" as totally unsubstantiated. As for the taste panel having many members, that's surely no guarantee of quality of results. If I were to randomly pick 44 people in the street and conduct a taste test with them I think we could regard the results as completely worthless.

While I really like and appreciate the guys at Brulosophy, the methodology is truly flawed and would NEVER be used in a true taste panel. Having someone who is untrained and unaware of whatever 'fault' or 'improvement' they are supposed to discern, is not going to be capable of producing a valid assessment. Worthless or nearly worthless is a good assessment of the 'testing' results.

Regarding the fact that lower gravity wort has lower viscosity, I don't see how that is going to produce the known increase in tannins and silicate. I still believe its the osmosis effects.

 

[dgently]

Brulosophy seems to be analysing general beer drinking(will this affect how it is received at a party).

I don't see hho knowing the variable invalidates the fact the one can pick out the difference,(although confirmation bias couls make you assume they all taste the sane) I don't really care if only one third of people can tell the difference, some taste thresholds vary morw than others amongst people.
I personally am more interested if there are individuals who can consistenly find the odd beer out, since that would mean there is a detectable difference).

 

[joegbeer]

Definitely does!

I always mashout since I brew on a RIMS and its easy to perform a mashout step. I routinely see a 1 to 2 Brix increase in wort gravity after the mashout.

Is mashout necessary? No. But it’s worthwhile when its easy.

Regarding thinner beer, I hadn’t thought about that before. Given that a proper mashout does add some gravity, I guess that some of that extract does add components that aid head production. Looking back, my beers always produce good head.

Appreciate your thoughts and feedback on this. I was looking to confirm with others what I had observed...

I started seeing my pre-boil gravity numbers slip a bit and was trying to figure out my efficiency problem. I've done a number of things and one was going back to doing a mash out. I've seen my efficiencies improve.

I think it's more related to the fact that solubility increases with temperature, so extraction efficiency could be increased by higher mashout temps.

This is what I'm thinking as well.

 

[cire]

I have only rarely conducted a so called "mash out". Only occasionally do I mash for less than 90 minutes and frequently longer for darker beers. For maximum extraction, sparging takes up to 2 hours, but such beers are never thin. Such will be achieved by a combination of low temperature and longer duration.

Alpha amylase is usually present in excess quantity for our mashing needs. They withstand higher temperatures than beta and can convert malt to long chain sugars inside 10 minutes at temperatures near to 75C. At such temperatures or higher, virtually all beta amylase would be denatured in that period. At more usual mash temperatures, little beta amylase remains active beyond one hour unless calcium salts are added. Calcium salts increase enzyme longevity, but after an hour their influence in a mash is mostly limited to depositing oxalates and other undesirable products and the production of an adequate level of free amino nitrogen for the yeast.