Do breweries adjust water profiles?

[oujens]

I'm still somewhat new to brewing. I've currently made 5 all grain batches and continually seek to improve my process and lower costs. I currently use Ozarka Spring water with no adjustments. I would like to get away from purchasing spring water and investigate ways to use my tap water. In general, do all breweries adjust their water to target certain profiles for different styles of beer? I understand the mash pH is the main focus, but didn't now if they adjust sulfates for bitter beers, add calcium, etc. This may also depend on a brewery's local water profile, but I couldn't find any information to see if breweries add salts to their water and for what purpose (mash pH or also to enhance certain styles).

Thanks

 

[Hermit]

Have you read the primer? No need to over think it at this point. You just need to understand the basics of what water makes a good beer to YOUR taste.

 

[oujens]

Yes, I read the primer which was very informative. I was just curious if anyone knew if breweries, in general, adjusted their water and for what purpose. The reason I ask about breweries is there is one locally that I have heard only filters their water using a charcoal filter and no other adjustments. I definitely plan on using the primer as a resource for my brewing.

 

[Hermit]

Yes, I read the primer which was very informative. I was just curious if anyone knew if breweries, in general, adjusted their water and for what purpose. The reason I ask about breweries is there is one locally that I have heard only filters their water using a charcoal filter and no other adjustments. I definitely plan on using the primer as a resource for my brewing.

Unless you are trying to clone a specific beer just knowing what some random brewery does or doesn't do with their water isn't really very helpful. There are plenty of craft brews I don't care for and really don't care what they do with their water because I don't care for the beer.

 

[oujens]

I completely agree with you there. I was just curious if there was a standard industry practice (to monitor mineral content for taste). For me, I'm thinking about decreasing the size of my batches and experimenting with different variables, so water treatment will be one of those. After reading the primer again I realize this question won't really help my process, I guess its just more for my knowledge. For all the tours I've been on, I have never asked about the water but I have inquired about everything else. Just when I thought I had everything mapped out a new variable is entered into the equation. I'm an analyst by day, so this hobby is a perfect fit for me.

 

[ajdelange]

Some do and some don't, as you might expect. Michael Lewis at UCD taught his students that water was the brewing equivalent of terroir and that one ought not fiddle with it but rather brew beers that fit the water and so give them 'house character'. His students tend to do things that way. Others like to experiment. Colin Kaminsky (Downtown Joes) comes immediately to mind as he is writing a book on brewing water treatment.

 

[oujens]

I figured that is probably how it is. As Hermit stated, why worry if it tastes good to you? I can understand why or why not a brewery would do it. Thanks for the input from both of you.

 

[Hermit]

I figured that is probably how it is. As Hermit stated, why worry if it tastes good to you? I can understand why or why not a brewery would do it. Thanks for the input from both of you.

You're quite welcome but it was originally AJ that pointed out that chasing 'historic' water profiles could be an exercise in futility and we should be more concerned about pleasing our own pallets. Certainly understanding what effects the flavor profile is becoming more well understood. I found an old text on the Burton water. Different wells had different profiles. Someone of the time actually did a clone and accused the brewers of the area of adulterating their water because he could only reproduce their beers by adding gypsum. He had to do a retraction when he found out the water of the area was naturally high in gypsum but the take away from that is gypsum probably is enough to do a pale ale to that style. After that you just worry about things like calcium to keep the yeast happy and get a good break and your own taste preference.

 

[mabrungard]

Some do and some don't, as you might expect. Michael Lewis at UCD taught his students that water was the brewing equivalent of terroir and that one ought not fiddle with it but rather brew beers that fit the water and so give them 'house character'. His students tend to do things that way. Others like to experiment. Colin Kaminsky (Downtown Joes) comes immediately to mind as he is writing a book on brewing water treatment.

I despise when AJ quotes Michael Lewis' very flawed advice to leave water as it is because it is their terroir. Using that advice, I suppose I could refine a recipe for an Indianapolis Stout. But I'm screwed if I want any other styles? Needless to say that is not a workable or wise for anyone wanting to brew more than what their water allows and it would be commercially infeasible for ANY commercial brewery to do so. AJ, please let that pearl from an otherwise illustrious researcher, die.

Yes, many commercial breweries do adjust their water to better fit the needs of the mash and the flavor they want in their product.

 

[Yooper]

Yes, many commercial breweries do adjust their water to better fit the needs of the mash and the flavor they want in their product.

And something that I've learned (I have very high bicarbonate water) is that simply boiling the water can be a "water treatment", and an effective one, to reduce the alkalinity of the water and make it usable for many beer styles!

I'm not sure how many breweries do that, but I would assume that some do.

I know some breweries go to more lengths- water systems and so on, while others set up in a place with fairly neutral water on purpose so they can use city water (Summit Brewing Company and Surly Brewing in Minneapolis come to mind).

Mark Stutrud himself told me that they use St. Paul city water, and that's why they built the brewery there.

 

[Hermit]

I despise when AJ quotes Michael Lewis' very flawed advice to leave water as it is because it is their terroir. Using that advice, I suppose I could refine a recipe for an Indianapolis Stout. But I'm screwed if I want any other styles? Needless to say that is not a workable or wise for anyone wanting to brew more than what their water allows and it would be commercially infeasible for ANY commercial brewery to do so. AJ, please let that pearl from an otherwise illustrious researcher, die.

Yes, many commercial breweries do adjust their water to better fit the needs of the mash and the flavor they want in their product.

This was in response to a question and was the appropriate answer here.

 

[Homercidal]

I'm guessing that the answer may well be across the board. I'm betting that there are lots of breweries who have water that is suitable for many different styles. I'm sure there are some that simply use the water they have and (possibly) brew styles to match. I'm sure there are some who do a lot of adjustments with salts and then there are some who adjust using ingredients, if it's appropriate.

I personally enjoy the added exercise of making water adjustments and I really would not want to be limited to certain beer styles with my water. It's really not hard once you get to a certain point. You will have an "AHA!" moment and things start to click. And there are a few ways to adjust pH, so you can choose your favorite method.

And it's doesn't have to be all that precise. My water is very high in alkalinity, so if I don't hit my pH on the mash to within a .1 I'm not really sweating it. The adjustment I made is surely much better than doing nothing!

 

[Kaiser]

I know that many German breweries decarbonate their water using slaked lime. But that's about it. There are also reports of adding gypsum (Braugips in German) to the water but my suspicion is that it is not all that common. Maybe to get Ca to 50 ppm, but not more.

Kai

 

[ajdelange]

And something that I've learned (I have very high bicarbonate water) is that simply boiling the water can be a "water treatment", and an effective one, to reduce the alkalinity of the water and make it usable for many beer styles!

I'm not sure how many breweries do that, but I would assume that some do.

In the past it happened automatically i.e. when you heated the water the carbonate dropped out. That's one of the main reasons I get so short with people who want to follow profiles. They go to a lot of trouble to get the carbonate into the water (if they do it correctly) and then as soon as they turn on the gas under the HLT it drops out (it isn't necessary to boil if the temporary hardness is high enough) and some small scale breweries might do it this way but lime treatment is less expensive because heat isn't required. I suppose you could argue that if sufficient carbonate drops out when heating to strike temperature that this is free decarbonation and I mentioned small breweries because at their scale the extra heat required to get to higher temperature and thus drop more bicarbonate might not be considered an excessive cost. Many small brewers aren't very sophisticated when it comes to this stuff but those who are will have traded off lime treatment vs boiling vs RO or microfiltration and chosen the most efficient method.

I was once chatting with 3 head brewers from 3 Gordon Biersch outlets. The statement 'You home brewers certainly take this water stuff more seriously than we do' was made.

As for Dr. Lewis - he turned out lots of good and great brewers. I think we should continue to respect his opinion but we should, of course, also be aware of the potential limitations his philosophy implies. I think it especially important that we be cognizant of it from the historical perspective. I am old enough to remember when the basis for beer advertising was often the water as in "It's the Water" which, IIRC, was on every can of Coors for quite a while (and may still be for all I know).

 

[ajdelange]

I know that many German breweries decarbonate their water using slaked lime. But that's about it. There are also reports of adding gypsum (Braugips in German) to the water but my suspicion is that it is not all that common. Maybe to get Ca to 50 ppm, but not more.

Kai

Judging from the number of articles I used to see in Brauwelt on the subject and occasional correspondence with a guy who advises breweries in Africa I'd say the water treatment that is becoming more and more prevalent is RO and or microfiltration among larger breweries. Those guys know what we know - starting with a clean sheet of paper lends maximum flexibility. And, of course, in many places the water source is ocean or brackish and they haven't much choice.

 

[Kaiser]

I think there is a lot of merit to A.J’s statement. We home brewers might be taking it more serious than we have to. But part of that is simply the fact that it is a hobby and we have the time to tinker with water.

This is sentiment is similar to what I expressed in this post: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brun-water-munich-profile-help-388050/#post4879487 which seem to have killed the thread.

I like understanding the effects of water and grist on mash pH and I talk about this a lot. Unfortunately that makes it seem that getting to some magic pH number is of very high importance to your beer quality. I have lots of data correlating water, grist and mash pH but it have not nearly as much data correlating mash pH and beer quality which is why I tend to stay away from making strong recommendations for a target mash pH.

I have seen mash and wort pH reports from German breweries that were in the upper 5s and lower 6s ! Based on our suggestions that should lead to awful beer. While I haven't tasted these beers myself they must be selling or the brewery would not be in existence.

I also know of commercial dark beers that are brewed with mash pH values in the upper 4s and lower 5s.

Kai

 

[Hermit]

Judging from the number of articles I used to see in Brauwelt on the subject and occasional correspondence with a guy who advises breweries in Africa I'd say the water treatment that is becoming more and more prevalent is RO and or microfiltration among larger breweries. Those guys know what we know - starting with a clean sheet of paper lends maximum flexibility. And, of course, in many places the water source is ocean or brackish and they haven't much choice.

Our local brewery doesn't even check pH at any stage of the process. They had 'some sort' of thing hooked up to the water but it was there when they got there and they 'don't mess with it'.

 

[Hermit]

I also know of commercial dark beers that are brewed with mash pH values in the upper 4s and lower 5s.

Kai

After getting serious about water I realized I was driving my stout pH too low and getting flavors I didn't like but were explained as 'expected' here as a consequence. I've tasted 'craft beers' with the same flavors and don't like them either but they obviously sell. I've been aging one for 2 years now. It is now a pretty good beer except the tail end. More aging because I don't need the bottles.

 

[ajdelange]

The last few posts have started to focus on what I consider to be the essential issue here which is that different people have different tastes. Some love the effects that sulfate lends some hate it. Some think beers mashed with high pH taste 'muddy' and those brewed with lower pH taste 'bright' and that still lower pH leads to tartness and insipidity. Others love that tartness, and other still think high mash pH beers are fine as someone pointed out, that must be the case because the optimality criterion for a commercial operation is that the beer sells. Our brewer, who is a Michael Lewis student, said at the last shareholders' meeting that he can't believe he is making some of the beers he is making but they are some of the best sellers so he holds his nose and brews them.

 

[afr0byte]

The last few posts have started to focus on what I consider to be the essential issue here which is that different people have different tastes. Some love the effects that sulfate lends some hate it. Some think beers mashed with high pH taste 'muddy' and those brewed with lower pH taste 'bright' and that still lower pH leads to tartness and insipidity. Others love that tartness, and other still think high mash pH beers are fine as someone pointed out, that must be the case because the optimality criterion for a commercial operation is that the beer sells. Our brewer, who is a Michael Lewis student, said at the last shareholders' meeting that he can't believe he is making some of the beers he is making but they are some of the best sellers so he holds his nose and brews them.

Any idea how I'd get my wife to like Belgian yeast character, or hop flavor?

 

[Hermit]

Any idea how I'd get my wife to like Belgian yeast character, or hop flavor?

Easiest way might be to change wives.

 

[afr0byte]

Easiest way might be to change wives.

No, thanks.

 

[Rob_E]

I think it also depends on what your water profile is where you're brewing. Some places have profiles that just really could use some amendments to produce quality beers. I find some breweries do the same amendment to their water for each batch, simply to account for some issues with the water in general.

Here in Austin we have water with a pH around 9.6. It's also very hard. When I started brewing I began trying to match the water to styles, but since then I've taken the advice of a local brewpub, who just carbon filters, then adds some phosphoric acid and gypsum to help balance things. They produce great beers and I've been told so do I, so I'm running with it.

So I think it does have to do with preference, what you're looking for (e.g. actual clones vs. your own style) and how suited your local water is to brewing all around quality beers for the style you're going after.

 

[oujens]

I think starting out I found the thing to do was try to "clone" a beer, but I never considered the water aspect of it. Cloning hasn't been a success, but my last two batches have improved dramatically from the beginning, mainly due to controlling the fermentation temps better. I've read a bunch on this forum and elsewhere about water adjustments, but never really read anything about breweries so I was curious. It only makes sense that they would make adjustments if necessary because water sources are not the same everywhere, but then again it is eye of the beholder. One thing I have not done is pay attention to pH, so I am interested in this. Looking forward to see the difference in my beer going from spring to tap water with the necessary adjustments. Next purchase, water filter. I love that the initial $80 dollar starter kit quickly rises to a $500+ start up cost, and I'm on the low side compared to some people on this board! Worth every penny IMO.

 

[Hermit]

The local watering hole has had some Belle's Two Hearted on draft. There are some aspects of the beer I very much enjoy so I found a clone recipe and will adapt it to my personal preference and hopefully enjoy that more. I will only try and clone the aspects of the beer I like, not the whole brew. Brewing is cooking. Season to taste.