profiles for different styles of beer

[KyBeer]

I have been brewing for over 30 years and can make almost any beer I want to make. With that said I want to improve to the next level.
I can build a water profile to almost any target with my tap water or a a blend of distilled water.
What I have trouble finding is the targets for different beer styles.
When looking at where a beer is brewed I can get the water report for that location and build it from my water, but what I don't know is what the brewer at that site did to the water.
I am looking for a website, book or anyway to find the target for a style of beer.
Most books list a general range of styles and range for salts. I would like more!

Example: If I want to brew a Blue Moon Clone, it is a Belgian style witbeir. I can find a Witbeir target that looks like this:
Ca 50-100 Alkalinity 0-80 Sulfate 0-50 Chloride 0-100 Kalbach RA 30-0 with acid adjust needed for PH correction.

I have several books I use for reference but just can't close the loop.
Cheers!

 

[hottpeper13]

Designing Great Beers and The Water Book have that info.

 

[hottpeper13]

You know the key is what did the brewer do to the water.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Brewing software like Brewers Friend or Brewfather have generic water profiles for most beer types.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Example: If I want to brew a Blue Moon Clone, it is a Belgian style witbeir. I can find a Witbeir target that looks like this:
Ca 50-100 Alkalinity 0-80 Sulfate 0-50 Chloride 0-100 Kalbach RA 30-0 with acid adjust needed for PH correction.

Did this data come from the Water book? In theory, when I was looking for this type of info (a basic water profile per style) the table in that book stood out to me as one of the best sources, but the ranges are quite wide (say 50-150 Sulfate). The data from that table did heavily influence my approach though. For those not familiar, there is a table that breaks down water profiles by Ale vs Lager, Alcohol Level, Color, and Hop Level. I think there are 16 different "profiles" with styles listed for each profile.

This is not too much different than the "Yellow Full" / "Brown Dry" type profiles that are in most brewing software and sheets like Bru'n Water. I see the value of these types of simplified profiles. While I do feel like there is more room for style specific water profiles, say for a Saison vs German Pils vs American Blonde Ale, these generic profiles could get somebody 90% of the way there.

I use BeerSmith, which has target water profiles but not style specific ones. I know that other software (like BrewFather) does have style specific target water profiles. There is also this tool that has style specific water styles: Phantom Wing Brewing (I have not used that tool myself, but I know the guy that wrote it and he makes some very good beer. Some of the mineral levels are higher than what I target myself.)

My personal approach: I am starting with my Mid-Atlantic tap water which has reasonable Calcium, Sulfate and Chloride levels (in the 25 to 40 ppm range). I have enough Sodium and Magnesium that I don't think much about those. I have seen some evidence that my beers with 50-70 ppm of Calcium clear better. I almost always add some Gypsum and usually some Calcium Chloride to at least bring my Calcium up to ~50 ppm.

With my starting water, for a 5 gal batch, 1.5 g Gypsum and 1 g Calcium Chloride gets me to around 50 ppm Calcium and 60 ppm Sulfate and Chloride. That is a pretty decent generic water profile. From there, I generally apply the "Full/Balanced/Dry" approach to tweak my Sulfate and Chloride levels and ratio. I tend to think that some styles (say English Porter) benefit from higher mineral levels, where others (say American Lager) benefit from lower mineral levels.

The styles that stand out as outliers for me are IPAs. For an American IPA I target Sulfate level of around 200 ppm (a little less for a Pale Ale). For a NEIPA I target Chloride levels around 150. For most other styles, I usually target Chloride and Sulfate levels in the 40 to 80 ppm range.

I am not positive what I would do for a Blue Moon Clone. I doubt the water profile for that beer is critical. A "Yellow Balanced" profile seems like a decent starting place.

 

[KyBeer]

Did this data come from the Water book? In theory, when I was looking for this type of info (a basic water profile per style) the table in that book stood out to me as one of the best sources, but the ranges are quite wide (say 50-150 Sulfate). The data from that table did heavily influence my approach though. For those not familiar, there is a table that breaks down water profiles by Ale vs Lager, Alcohol Level, Color, and Hop Level. I think there are 16 different "profiles" with styles listed for each profile.

This is not too much different than the "Yellow Full" / "Brown Dry" type profiles that are in most brewing software and sheets like Bru'n Water. I see the value of these types of simplified profiles. While I do feel like there is more room for style specific water profiles, say for a Saison vs German Pils vs American Blonde Ale, these generic profiles could get somebody 90% of the way there.

I use BeerSmith, which has target water profiles but not style specific ones. I know that other software (like BrewFather) does have style specific target water profiles. There is also this tool that has style specific water styles: Phantom Wing Brewing (I have not used that tool myself, but I know the guy that wrote it and he makes some very good beer. Some of the mineral levels are higher than what I target myself.)

My personal approach: I am starting with my Mid-Atlantic tap water which has reasonable Calcium, Sulfate and Chloride levels (in the 25 to 40 ppm range). I have enough Sodium and Magnesium that I don't think much about those. I have seen some evidence that my beers with 50-70 ppm of Calcium clear better. I almost always add some Gypsum and usually some Calcium Chloride to at least bring my Calcium up to ~50 ppm.

With my starting water, for a 5 gal batch, 1.5 g Gypsum and 1 g Calcium Chloride gets me to around 50 ppm Calcium and 60 ppm Sulfate and Chloride. That is a pretty decent generic water profile. From there, I generally apply the "Full/Balanced/Dry" approach to tweak my Sulfate and Chloride levels and ratio. I tend to think that some styles (say English Porter) benefit from higher mineral levels, where others (say American Lager) benefit from lower mineral levels.

The styles that stand out as outliers for me are IPAs. For an American IPA I target Sulfate level of around 200 ppm (a little less for a Pale Ale). For a NEIPA I target Chloride levels around 150. For most other styles, I usually target Chloride and Sulfate levels in the 40 to 80 ppm range.

I am not positive what I would do for a Blue Moon Clone. I doubt the water profile for that beer is critical. A "Yellow Balanced" profile seems like a decent starting place.

 

[KyBeer]

I have "Water" by Palmer and Kaminski and "Designing Great Beers" by Daniels. Both are go to books in my brew library. I use Brewers Friend to build my water profiles. It works great but I am making assumptions on what the target should be for what I am brewing. I can make good beer but I want to push on to great beer.
I have looked at every aspect of my brew process and made changes as time has gone on. Some minor and some major. The two of focus for me right now are fermentation temperature and water.
Fermentation is under control for the cooler months of the year. I want to make sure my water is as not an issue.
My process has been to guess what style fits the beer I'm going to brew, add salts to my HLT and boil for 15 minutes. When HL has cooled to mash target temperature, mash in.
The source water profile I use is "Florence Kentucky Water - 3/2022", in Brewers Friend, water profiles. I am very lucky to have good brewing water. On my system I use a particulate filter followed by a carbon filter. I will blend with distilled water if I can't hit my targets but normally don't need to do that.

If I want to brew a Baltic Porter for example, how do you know what the water profile should look like. I read in one of my books by John Palmer that is the range of a salt is between 50 to 100, if you are at 50 or 100 the taste will not change that much. but if it is 0 it will.

I will continue to read and read and read, then brew and sip and sip.

 

[KyBeer]

Designing Great Beers and The Water Book have that info.

Sort of. If I want to narrow it down to a beer in a single style you need to know the exact target for that style, not a general guess.
I have both books and they point you to a general area. Is there a suggested profile for a selected BJCP group?
IE. 20A should have 70-80 CL, ...

 

[KyBeer]

You know the key is what did the brewer do to the water.

I worked at a local microbrewery for a few months after I retired from my real job. I did this to learn what was done on the mid scale brewing systems.
They had the same water as I get from my tap. They filtered it the same as I do but only added gypsum on a few brews and yeast nutrient on the big high ABV brews.
Most of the local breweries use what they get and only filter it.

 

[hottpeper13]

Most of the local breweries use what they get and only filter it.

So you think in the UK they filtered it and brewed with 275 ppm's of alkalinity? I'm trying to inform this thread that areas of brewing that didn't have Kentucky water did something to it. If you want to follow the city water and add alkalinity just to add acid for proper pH that's up to the brewer. I didn't realize you were cloning Kentucky beers,you should go with that profile.

 

[oldschool]

So you think in the UK they filtered it and brewed with 275 ppm's of alkalinity? I'm trying to inform this thread that areas of brewing that didn't have Kentucky water did something to it. If you want to follow the city water and add alkalinity just to add acid for proper pH that's up to the brewer. I didn't realize you were cloning Kentucky beers,you should go with that profile.

The OP isn’t trying to clone KY beers. He’s asking about styles and water profiles.

Agree with you though that well known breweries almost always do something to the water to reduce alkalinity.

Hey @KyBeer be cautious trusting homebrew books to match a water style. Munich breweries for example don’t brew with untreated municipal water to make their renowned Lagerbier Hell as the old homebrew literature suggest.