Discussion on malty German beers

[TheMadKing]

Sauergut is nearly always a forgotten major aspect of German beer. Probably because no one knows what it is. In the freshest examples ( nothing imported in a can or bottle) each breweries sauergut house flavor is easy to pick out and uniquely different.

IMO opinion its another process you can’t really properly replicate German beer without.

If I understand it correctly it's more or less a wild lactobacillus starter pitched into the mash to control pH and help scavenge oxygen correct?

The instructions for making it on your website are very clear, but not when to add it or how much is needed (which I'm sure depends on many factors including grist, pH, brewing salts, etc.) so how do you properly regulate pH with it?

 

[Bilsch]

And to complicate things further.. sauergut has a range of possible flavors with each brewery having its own distinctly unique taste from their inhouse reactor. Every beer drinkers bucket list should include a couple weeks in Bavaria doing a thorough palate calibration.

Edit: The Beerery beat me to it.

 

[Die_Beerery]

It’s basically naturally soured wort. You then dose that wort during your brewday as you would other acids. You titrate to find acid %.

 

[Big Monk]

It’s basically naturally soured wort. You then dose that wort during your brewday as you would other acids. You titrate to find acid %.

Yup. Find acid % then dose at 60 ml/kg of malt per 0.1 pH drop desired in the mash, 30 ml/kg of malt per 0.1 pH drop in the boil.

 

[TheMadKing]

It’s basically naturally soured wort. You then dose that wort during your brewday as you would other acids. You titrate to find acid %.

Does it need to be wort produced in the same way as the main beer (same grist, Lodo techniques, etc)?

 

[Die_Beerery]

Yessir.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Interesting on the no LoDo, but a technique much discussed because of that is the use of Sauergut to manage your wort ph. That might be something to try as well, especially your kettle ph near knock-out.

Just a thought...

Post #31 of this thread... not sayin', just sayin'!

 

[TheMadKing]

Question,

Has anyone tried drawing off a liter or so of wort acidified with sauermalz at the end of the mash and then adding it back just after flame out?

I'm curious if you could get a similar flavor profile to sauergut by doing that. I'm also curious if that's already a known technique that I've just not heard of.

 

[Big Monk]

Question,

Has anyone tried drawing off a liter or so of wort acidified with sauermalz at the end of the mash and then adding it back just after flame out?

I'm curious if you could get a similar flavor profile to sauergut by doing that. I'm also curious if that's already a known technique that I've just not heard of.

Well, Sauermalz is acidified by spraying Pils malt with Sauergut, although much of the nuance flavor from Sauergut comes from dosing a high volume of low acid into the mash and boil.

You could try it out but I would suggest brewing a few beers with Sauergut first to get a baseline. My gut (no pun intended) and my experience tasting beers made with Sauergut tells me that it's not a flavor that can be duplicated exactly by other means.

With that said, Sauermalz is a great way to acidify the mash. I always use Sauermalz as my main form of acid in brewing.

 

[TheMadKing]

Well, Sauermalz is acidified by spraying Pils malt with Sauergut, although much of the nuance flavor from Sauergut comes from dosing a high volume of low acid into the mash and boil.

You could try it out but I would suggest brewing a few beers with Sauergut first to get a baseline. My gut (no pun intended) and my experience tasting beers made with Sauergut tells me that it's not a flavor that can be duplicated exactly by other means.

With that said, Sauermalz is a great way to acidify the mash. I always use Sauermalz as my main form of acid in brewing.

I suspect that you're right in terms of duplicating the sauergut flavor, but it may be a viable method of boosting the sweet grainy wort flavor in the finished beer.

I do routinely use ~3% sauermalz in my beers though I usually also use a small amount of 88% lactic acid in lighter beers to get my pH in line

I fully intend to make a batch of saurgut in my wife's instant pot (I can mini mash and incubate in the same vessel... Very convenient) and try it out, but I just got thinking

 

[Big Monk]

...but it may be a viable method of boosting the sweet grainy wort flavor in the finished beer.

How so?

 

[TheMadKing]

How so?

Because you're adding some of the preboiled wort back, and boiling removes some of the more delicate aromatics in malt.

 

[Big Monk]

Because you're adding some of the preboiled wort back, and boiling removes some of the more delicate aromatics in malt.

I doubt you'd get the desired result from doing that but there isn't anything wrong with experimenting.

 

[TheMadKing]

I doubt you'd get the desired result from doing that but there isn't anything wrong with experimenting.

I agree, it was mostly a passing curiosity and thought I would pose the question.

 

[Phoenix75]

Interesting that you are noticing a difference. Most malt companies in Europe use a variety of varieties depending on the crop and the quality. We, as the Swaen, do a lot of work with our local farmers in Sealand. We also use some modern varieties for our Pilsner malt to get the max. Brew yields. Don’t hesitate to give me feedback anytime

 

[TheMadKing]

Just an update, my pilsner and ESB are very good but I wouldn't say there's a dramatic change from any of my previous brews.

Today I'm brewing a Helles Bock using Sauergut additions to the mash and at flame out. The Sauergut is delicious and I believe it's what I've been looking for. I'm pretty excited about it actually.

Also an instant pot is the best tool in the world for making a batch of Sauergut

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Nice... I hope the sauergut's promise continues and gets you where you've been striving to end up.

 

[MSK_Chess]

rather interestingly British breweries all had souring tanks back in the day, they gradually got phased out and by the 1980's they were all gone.

 

[Schlenkerla]

rather interestingly British breweries all had souring tanks back in the day, they gradually got phased out and by the 1980's they were all gone.

What are they using now? Maybe acidulated or a sauer malt?

 

[Paulaner]

Here's my addition from this morning.

 

[MSK_Chess]

What are they using now? Maybe acidulated or a sauer malt?

either that or food grade lactic acid I suspect. The historical records for Boddingtons Bitter in the 60's and 70's had something termed "enzymatic malt", no one is quite sure what it refers to but its postulated that it refers to acid malt.

 

[Schlenkerla]

either that or food grade lactic acid I suspect.

I know Guinness uses a souring agent in their stout. I don't recall what it is... Damn now I gotta wait two days till I can get my hands on my clone brews book...

 

[divrack]

I know Guinness uses a souring agent in their stout. I don't recall what it is... Damn now I gotta wait two days till I can get my hands on my clone brews book...

Used to be a sour mash i think or possibly just some sourgut , now just lactic

 

[MSK_Chess]

there is definitely an acidic twang to a Guinness but no one is entirely sure how its achieved and Guinness are poker faced about it. In the past it was undoubtedly soured wort, but now, who can say?

 

[Vale71]

Used to be a sour mash i think or possibly just some sourgut , now just lactic

Does it say "E270" on the label? If it doesn't than they don't make lactic acid additions.
Personally I think that the "sour twang" in Guinness is just wishful thinking.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Does it say "E270" on the label? If it doesn't than they don't make lactic acid additions.
Personally I think that the "sour twang" in Guinness is just wishful thinking.

I read it somewhere that it has some sour or acidification factor added to it. Who knows it could have come from barrel aging at sometime. When I get back to my away-from-home home/brewery. I'll find the clone or author who claims this to be the case. Whether it's correct or not is TBD.

 

[Vale71]

If it's not on the label with its "E" code then the source must be natural. EU labelling laws are very strict in this respect.
They could be using Sauermalz -- which is the German way to keep on lying to their customers about their beer being made only with water, hops and malt -- but that would be rather unusual for a non-German brewery.

 

[Schlenkerla]

If it's not on the label with its "E" code then the source must be natural. EU labelling laws are very strict in this respect.
They could be using Sauermalz -- which is the German way to keep on lying to their customers about their beer being made only with water, hops and malt -- but that would be rather unusual for a non-German brewery.

The clone book or author may be citing a work-a-round with something they think would dial the taste in to that flavor. Again whether it's correct or not is worth stating. Didn't know about the E Code stipulation. I've seen it on other products didn't understand it other than a certification. Thanks.

 

[Soulshine2]

I've certainly wondered if ingredients play a big factor as well.

There certainly is a difference between the commercial Dunkel I have in my fridge and mine when I taste them side by side but I wouldn't call it anything magical.

The best way I can describe it to someone is:

Go buy a bottle of Sam Adams octoberfest and taste it very criticality and slowly like a beer judge would next to a bottle of Ayinger Marzen.

The initial malt flavor when it first hits your pallet is almost perfect, it's rich and full and has everything I'm after. But then you swallow and its sweet and heavy and it lingers

The Ayinger has the same initial taste and you expect it to be sweet, but then you swallow and its crisp, smooth, perfectly balanced with the hops, and doesn't feel heavy at all making it very drinkable.

That's all I'm after. I'm not chasing some undefined "it". I'm trying to make a beer that has that same quality of initial strong full malt flavor but that is very drinkable and balanced on the finish. I still think it's a combination of mash technique and yeast handling, but ingredients and recipe also seem like good candidates.

If Lodo brewing accomplishes that, then I'm willing to test it, but I'm admittedly skeptical.

not to derail this thread as it is incredibly interesting,and to which I'm following . But your line about comparing Oktoberfests got me to post...Last fall my wife and I did exactly that , bought quite a few locally available Oktoberfests and tasted them , pretty much side by side. it was a very interesting weekend to say the least and what a difference what one brewery touts as a Maerzen as to another...some were as different as night and day.

 

[CTS]

not to derail this thread as it is incredibly interesting,and to which I'm following . But your line about comparing Oktoberfests got me to post...Last fall my wife and I did exactly that , bought quite a few locally available Oktoberfests and tasted them , pretty much side by side. it was a very interesting weekend to say the least and what a difference what one brewery touts as a Maerzen as to another...some were as different as night and day.

I did the same thing here with all the local breweries. I believe I tried 3 or 4 and every one was drastically different from the next.

 

[Bassman2003]

Just an update, my pilsner and ESB are very good but I wouldn't say there's a dramatic change from any of my previous brews.

Today I'm brewing a Helles Bock using Sauergut additions to the mash and at flame out. The Sauergut is delicious and I believe it's what I've been looking for. I'm pretty excited about it actually.

Also an instant pot is the best tool in the world for making a batch of Sauergut

We have an InstaPot. Could you share your easy procedure? I was recently drinking a Warsteiner and tasted the hint of grape known to be from sauergut. I never noticed it until the guys at the LOB forum pointed this out. Thanks.

 

[Miraculix]

We have an InstaPot. Could you share your easy procedure? I was recently drinking a Warsteiner and tasted the hint of grape known to be from sauergut. I never noticed it until the guys at the LOB forum pointed this out. Thanks.

I literally had a Warsteiner today in Germany (well, in an airplane above Germany, flying from Frankfurt to London) and really did not like it. I drank this a lot when I was young, I was actually suprised how ordinary this beer tastes. Not as bad as Becks, but still not something I would fancy drinking.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Does it say "E270" on the label? If it doesn't than they don't make lactic acid additions.
Personally I think that the "sour twang" in Guinness is just wishful thinking.

nope, not in the UK anyway, its entirely discernible from drinking it. Many people have postulated as to what it is or what causes it. Martin of Bru n water thinks that you can achieve similar results with mineral additions but I've never been able to do it.

 

[Bilsch]

I literally had a Warsteiner today in Germany (well, in an airplane above Germany, flying from Frankfurt to London) and really did not like it. I drank this a lot when I was young, I was actually suprised how ordinary this beer tastes. Not as bad as Becks, but still not something I would fancy drinking.

Yea it's not the best but when your choice is only Bud, Heineken or Warsteiner, I guess it's good enough till you change planes in FRA or MUC and can have a proper Radeberger or something.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

What are they using now? Maybe acidulated or a sauer malt?

Of course not - they use inorganic acids like any country with sane brewing laws and no fear of minerals. The default in UK breweries are either sulphuric, hydrochloric or a mix of the two (eg AMS).

That's not to say that you'll get the odd one contorting themselves with strange Germanic practices, but it's not common.

As for Guinness - Boak and Bailey have published quite a bit from primary sources on Guinness in the 20th century at Park Royal - it's not straightforward but some of the magic ingredients included both barm beer and Old Beer Storage (OBS) which was the acid stuff.

 

[Bilsch]

That's not to say that you'll get the odd one contorting themselves with strange Germanic practices, but it's not common.

That made me chuckle.
Come to think of it a few times while drinking a nice helles in Bavaria, I thought to myself this would be so much better with the flavor of HCl or sulphuric instead of those weird sauergut notes. Get with the future already.

 

[Miraculix]

That made me chuckle.
Come to think of it a few times while drinking a nice helles in Bavaria, I thought to myself this would be so much better with the flavor of HCl or sulphuric instead of those weird sauergut notes. Get with the future already.

NIEMALS!

 

[TheMadKing]

We have an InstaPot. Could you share your easy procedure? I was recently drinking a Warsteiner and tasted the hint of grape known to be from sauergut. I never noticed it until the guys at the LOB forum pointed this out. Thanks.

Yep

I mashed 0.75lb of pilsen malt in 2L of water at 150F for 40 mins using the "saute" feature of the instant pot with a custom temp.

I preboiled the water and added 30mg (that's 0.03g!) of Na-meta as an antioxidant, and 1mL of 10% phosphoric acid for the mash.

Then I boiled the wort to sterilize it, cooled it to 120 by immersing the metal cooking vessel in cold water, then eyeballed about 6oz of Sauermaltz and dumped them in uncrushed.

I set the instant pot for yogurt at 115F and let it sit like that for 24 hours. It was nice and tangy the next morning but still tasted like fresh grain.

 

[TheMadKing]

nope, not in the UK anyway, its entirely discernible from drinking it. Many people have postulated as to what it is or what causes it. Martin of Bru n water thinks that you can achieve similar results with mineral additions but I've never been able to do it.

I usually just add about 6oz of acid malt

But I did make an Irish stout where pulled off 1 gallon of wort and then pitched fresh grain into it and let it sit at room temp for a couple days, then I boiled it and pitched it into the fermenting beer

It had a really nice sour twang to it and I thought it matched guineass pretty well without the nitro.

 

[Bassman2003]

Yep

I mashed 0.75lb of pilsen malt in 2L of water at 150F for 40 mins using the "saute" feature of the instant pot with a custom temp.

I preboiled the water and added 30mg (that's 0.03g!) of Na-meta as an antioxidant, and 1mL of 10% phosphoric acid for the mash.

Then I boiled the wort to sterilize it, cooled it to 120 by immersing the metal cooking vessel in cold water, then eyeballed about 6oz of Sauermaltz and dumped them in uncrushed.

I set the instant pot for yogurt at 115F and let it sit like that for 24 hours. It was nice and tangy the next morning but still tasted like fresh grain.

Thanks. Is there any risk of lingering twang that SWMBO might be unhappy with!