Discussion on malty German beers

[Schlenkerla]

Yep this sounds like either
1. Continued trolling
2. Someone who hasn’t executed the process even though they claim they have.
3. Someone who doesn’t have a palette capable of making the distinction.

Could be a bit of all 3.

Whatever makes the brewer happy though.

On a semi related subject, my family thinks I’m crazy because I can taste the difference between grain fed and grass fed beef. They think I’m just picky. Truth be told it’s because I did some side by side tastings and learned what the difference was. Before that day I had tasted the difference but had no clue what I was tasting because I hadn’t been educated. Point is even if you can taste the difference sometimes you need some training to *know* the difference.

True on the beef. While I don't have that blind knowledge via taste. My father was a farmer/butcher/grocer. He could tell the difference between corn fed vs grass fed by appearance and by taste. There is a bias though with the appearance. He showed me the fat marbling in the meat, grass fed is absent of that fat. He just liked the corn fed taste better. Who wouldn't if it has that fat distributed within the meat?

 

[schematix]

The complete rejection of the very possibility that this process isn't perfect is laughable.

The process when executed correctly yields a particular result. That much is known and has been repeated over and over again by many homebrewers. If you're not getting it, it's either because your body doesn't have the ability to sense it (possible but i'm not sure anyone has ever studied it), or you aren't doing the process well enough. It's not really a perfection thing. You either do it and get the result, or make some type of error and don't.

Many, many people have invested the time, went through the difficulties, and finally got it. I sorta got it the first time, but the second time i really knew i had it and it was so glaringly obvious. It took another 10-15 batches to get further dialed in though. It's not easy to get it all right all the time, but its possible.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I taste fresh grain in most malty beers.

There is no "the flavor".. It's the taste of malted barley plain and simple. Yes some beers that have been oxidized tend to have a flatter flavor but it's still there.

The word to describe the flavor is malty. It is not sweet, it is not grain, it is malty. It's the taste that you get when you chew a piece of malted barley with most of the sugary sweetness removed by the yeast.

While I want to agree with you on most of those two posts. Malty is too generic to describe the malt taste you are picking up or are pursuant thereof in your home brewing. You are using a high level (your inherently known) understanding of word in brewing to describe the taste of malt or the beer.

It's kind of like my wife's love/hate relationship with pork. She will turn her nose up at perfectly good pork chops or ham because it's too porky and other times think it's wonderful. What's porky mean?

Let's try getting to specifics as to the malt taste. Try reading this book I think it was under $15. [Edit its $1.99] The link is below.

This is an excerpt on one of my favorite books on malt. This book is perfect for the home brewer who's done everything.

"Roasted: A Homebrewer's Guide to Home Roasting Grain" by Jason Johnson -

Start reading this book for free: http://a.co/dNZBEau

Part 3: Flavors and Aromas in Malt.

Malt brings a lot to the table in terms of beer flavor, aroma, and mouthfeel. This chapter will just touch on some of the key (not all) flavors and aromas that malt can contribute to the finished beer. I will also touch on the subject of how to develop malts that can bring those same attributes to your beer. If you try to do any research on “malt flavor” you will turn up a lot of information on malt data, and some very generic terms, like “smooth malt flavor” or “contributes a light malt flavor” in some cases you will even find where a description will say it “gives a maltiness to the beer”. To me, it seems that there is not a whole lot of effort put forth on categorizing the flavors that malt can contribute to the beer. While I am by far no expert on all things grain, I feel there should be some basic knowledge on this topic. Malt flavors can range from light and subtle to in your face. Yet whenever someone talks about the malt flavor in the beer, you almost always hear one word, malty. I think in most cases what someone is meaning by malty, is the sweet caramel-like quality that many of your more malt forward beers will have. But there is so much more to just being “malty”. Let’s cover some of the more prominent specific malt flavors and aromas. These can be hard to describe because you are describing a sensation. In most cases if you are not familiar with a particular flavor, it’s best to go get that item, then really smell it and take your time tasting it. Take it all in and pay attention to your senses.

Biscuity: The flavor and aroma of biscuits. Often like fresh baked buttermilk biscuits.

Bready: This descriptor is fairly straightforward. Most of the time when people are talking about a bready flavor or aroma, it is the smell and flavors of your standard white bread.

Brown Sugar: A sweet and brown sugar-like flavor and aroma, sometimes gets mixed in with caramel flavors. But brown sugar tastes like a toned down molasses.

Caramel: Caramel can be complex, and the flavors can vary from light and delicate to heavy. The flavor and aroma itself can range from that of typical milk caramel, to that of more of an old world true caramel candy one would make at home. I suggest the best way to become familiar with the flavor and aroma of true caramel; you make a batch at home. (See Appendix II) This will also help you differentiate between caramel and toffee flavors. Sometimes people tend to confuse the two.

Chocolate: Often the flavor and aroma of bittersweet, unsweetened, or dark chocolate. At times, you may even experience a milk chocolate flavor and aroma, but most of the time the chocolate flavors are on the dark chocolate side.

Cracker-like: Imagine a saltine cracker without the salt. The flavor is light and delicate, with just the slightest amount of toast.

Crusty: If you take out an uncut loaf of fresh baked French Bread and you smell the crust, that is the best way to describe that aroma.

Coffee: The coffee flavor and aroma will typically come solely from roasted grain, but some people do make beers with coffee in them. The coffee flavor and aroma can range from very light to almost espresso like.

Corn: Not to be confused with DMS, some grains can impart a sweet corn-like aroma. The best way to differentiate between DMS and grain derived corn aroma, is that DMS will be more like a canned corn aroma, but corn characteristics that come from grain is closer to the aroma of fresh corn.

Grainy: The flavor and aroma of fresh grain. It is often very similar to the cereal grape nuts. If you have ever smelled or tasted your grains, which I’m sure you have at some point, that raw flavor and aroma can transfer over to your beer.

Honey: What else can I say? It’s the flavor and aroma of honey. Now, not just the sweetness of honey, but honey itself. This is one item that people really should pay attention to, and smell and taste honey. Put the sweetness of it out of your mind, and pay attention to the aroma and the flavor.

Huskey: A dry and slightly astringent flavor of grain husks.

Melanoidin: Melanoidin flavors and aromas are rich and complex, and actually very hard to describe because it is a flavor and aroma all its own. Munich and Vienna malts are great examples of malts that have a lot of melanoidin flavor and aroma. Melanoidins are formed by the browning action of the beer. If you want to think about what melanoidins flavor is, take some white bread and taste it, then put it in the toaster and toast it. The flavor difference you get is what melanoidin is. I will cover melanoidins a bit more in depth in part 4.

Molasses: The flavor and aroma of molasses. It can range from mild though blackstrap. Molasses is a flavor all on its own, if you are unfamiliar with it, you really should pick some up for comparison.

Nutty: Often this is the smell and flavor of almonds, but this descriptor can take the form of any nut. Chocolate malt in small amounts can lend a nuttiness to the beer as well as some medium range toasted malts.

Raisin: Believe it or not, you can get this flavor from malt. Special B is a good example of a malt that can help bring you a rasin-like flavor to the beer.

Roast: The generic flavor and aroma of roasted grain. It will have a burnt and acrid flavor and aroma. In most cases, small doses of that flavor/aroma is OK in many dark styles, but when over done it can be very off putting.

Toast: See Melanoidin.

Toffee: Toffee will often have a brown sugar-like and buttery flavor. It is similar to caramel but a little softer.

Treacle: Treacle is syrup made during the sugar refinement process. You have 2 types of treacle, one lighter shade called golden syrup and one darker shade called black treacle. It is a slightly bitter and very distinctive type of syrup. This is also a flavor to become familiar with by buying some in the store. Some of your darker crystal/caramel malts can impart a treacle-like flavor into a beer.

So now that we are familiar with some of the main flavor/aroma components that grain can bring to the table, you may want to know how to develop them. It is the most complexly simple answer I can give you. It is developed by a combination of time, heat, and moisture (or lack of). You have an infinite number of combinations of time and temperature to create an infinite combination of specialty grains. As a general rule, the lower the temperature, the more soft and subtle the flavor development will be. For example, to bring forth a bit of a honey-like flavor, you will roast your grain at a low temperature (200 degrees) for a short period of time, 15-20 minutes. The higher the heat and the longer the temperature, the more robust the flavor.

You will notice that I didn’t include sweetness as a flavor. Sweetness is a generic term and while beer in almost every case has some residual sweetness from the fermentable sugars, sweet is not really a flavor descriptor that explains a whole lot. Therefore I ignored the general term “sweet”, because there are so many other descriptors that nail down the type of sweetness a bit more than just saying something like “malty sweet”. Is it caramel-like, Honey-like, etc."

Start reading this book for free: http://a.co/2Sp7veM

 

[Schlenkerla]

I don’t know if it’s been said in the 30 pages. Do you taste fresh lingering grain in fresh European examples? If you don’t this will be a fruitless effort.
Also confirmation bias works both ways.

I still feel we are not on the same page with regards to “the flavor”. Can you elaborate on most malty beers? I can only taste the elusive flavor in continental beers, and maybe like .5% of beers produced here. This is regardless of maltiness. They have to be a low oxygen brewhouse on the hot side to have it. Which basically eliminates 99% of breweries in the us. So the comment of malty beers perplexes me. Regardless of style almost all US produced beers do not exhibit this flavor. Infact they display muted malt flavor and aroma, and color indicative of HSA.

The way you describe this, and with your findings to this point. I really want to say we are not on the same page. However I have been at this for nearly 5 years debating with folks. I have ran into enough people that will continue to argue their point. I realize you are one of these, and by all means that cool and totally ok. I however dont have the time and or patience at this point in my life to try and prove/disprove/convince folks of anything anymore.

So to that I say Cool! I hope you find what you are after!

Prost.

I will agree with you about being on the same page as to a beer being, "Malty". Using malty to describe malt is like saying,

"I like lagers that taste lagery".
"I like German beers that taste Germany"
"I don't like hoppy beers cause they're too hoppy for my tastes, now Bud Light that's a good beer!".

BTW - Post #303 came from a home brew book.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Regarding this book, it great for somebody who wants to create their own 1-of-kind specialty malts but not want to get into malting. I use my own bulk purchased German Avanguard Pale Malt to make rauch malt and variety of roasted, toasted and crystal malts. The smell of home made crystal 40L is to die for and brew with just after its done. Same with Rauch Malt. Maple Smoked Brown Malt is my favorite. Its kin to grinding or roasting your own coffee beans.

"Roasted: A Homebrewer's Guide to Home Roasting Grain" by Jason Johnson
Start reading this book for free: http://a.co/dNZBEau

​

I also love this blog and this guys malting book, as he goes into great detail about making specialty malts.

Brewing Beer The Hard Way - Francois Dyment
https://brewingbeerthehardway.wordpress.com/

​

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/roast-em-toast-em-smoke-em-if-you-got-em.637254/

​

 

[ba-brewer]

Regarding this book, it great for somebody who wants to create their own 1-of-kind specialty malts but not want to get into malting. I use my own bulk purchased German Avanguard Pale Malt to make rauch malt and variety of roasted, toasted and crystal malts. The smell of home made crystal 40L is to die for and brew with just after its done. Same with Rauch Malt. Maple Smoked Brown Malt is my favorite. Its kin to grinding or roasting your own coffee beans.

"Roasted: A Homebrewer's Guide to Home Roasting Grain" by Jason Johnson
Start reading this book for free: http://a.co/dNZBEau

​

I also love this blog and this guys malting book, as he goes into great detail about making specialty malts.

Brewing Beer The Hard Way - Francois Dyment
https://brewingbeerthehardway.wordpress.com/

​

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/roast-em-toast-em-smoke-em-if-you-got-em.637254/

​

Do either discuss how to make the self converting type of brown malt?
​

 

[Schlenkerla]

Do either discuss how to make the self converting type of brown malt?
​

Yeah... Both of them.

Edit: Actually, The Malting book has more detail but all three are real cheap. The smoke book is really for the smoke aficionado. At one time nearly all grain was smoked unless the climate permitted sun kilning.

This screen shot is in the roasting book.

This is from the malting book.

https://brewingbeerthehardway.wordpress.com/category/brown-malt/


"Smoked Beers" also has another tidbit on making brown malts via smoking wet grain at higher temps than normal smoking of grains. Wet meaning its equal to its weight in distilled water at smoking at 300 and 400F. That temp is smoker temp not the grain. I have details of that in my roast 'em, toast 'em, smoke 'em if you got 'em thread. That was before I saw Dyment's blog. I made a really good bacon tasting brown ale using my smoked brown malt.

Smoked Beers: History, Brewing Techniques, Recipes (Classic Beer Style Series, 18.) https://www.amazon.com/dp/0937381764/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Miraculix]

Do either discuss how to make the self converting type of brown malt?
​

That surely would be wonderful to be available to buy readily done.

 

[TheMadKing]

Thanks I've read that book

If malty doesn't describe the taste of malted barley.. Which does have its own unique flavor that can best be described by the name assigned to it.. Then you can't use the terms bready or biscuity or toasty or any other comparisons... That's like saying I like my bread to taste bready or my biscuits to be more biscuity. Just because those flavors are more familiar to people, they are seen as better descriptors. For brewers, the word malty should evoke an understanding of a specific flavor that we all know and understand.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Malty is not the descriptor we use. If we are going by that books terms it would be “grainy”. Which is literally how we phrase it.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Thanks I've read that book

If malty doesn't describe the taste of malted barley.. Which does have its own unique flavor that can best be described by the name assigned to it.. Then you can't use the terms bready or biscuity or toasty or any other comparisons... That's like saying I like my bread to taste bready or my biscuits to be more biscuity. Just because those flavors are more familiar to people, they are seen as better descriptors. For brewers, the word malty should evoke an understanding of a specific flavor that we all know and understand.

Now, you are completely wrong. Think you're missing the point. If you read that book you didn't absorb much of what it said about malt flavors.

That's exactly what you are doing, making a circular definition, by saying malt is malty. When malt has a spectrum of flavors commonly described as bready, biscuity, toasty and cracker..... Again these are common descriptors of malt flavors that people can easily understand. You're in the spectrum and not saying where you want your beer to be within that.

Then your playing the role of Carnac The Magnificent. Malty. Whats the flavor I'm tasting? Is it grainy?




From English stack exchange;

What's that figure of speech in which you use the same word to define its meaning, thereby not really defining it.

Like, "YAML Ain't Markup Language", the expanded form of the abbreviation YAML uses itself in its definition and thus doesn't really define the actual thing.

In this case, though, through negation, it restricts the purview of its meaning to a fairly ascertainable concept. But that's just one example.

In other usages, the definition may or may not convey meaning.

Like in this definition of the Internet, "The Internet, a backward formation of inter-network, is a network of networks."

It's not synecdoche, as I used to think.

For instance a elusive statement like "God is...well, only God can define God." exemplifies it.

It uses the word whose definition is sought in the definition itself, thereby abdicating the responsibility of providing meaning or justification.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Malty is not the descriptor we use. If we are going by that books terms it would be “grainy”. Which is literally how we phrase it.

Exactly, it's too broad of a word.

Malty is generally understood porter vs light beer, but it's not precise enough to define the flavor within a porter. Such as coffee, toast, or chocolate.

 

[dmtaylor]

 

[TheMadKing]

Currently drinking a fairly fresh imported Paulaner Original that has faint grape, sweetness and hops, on the nose, sweet grain flavor offset by a sharp/tart/metallic flavor and balanced with the hop bitterness and a very faint lingering sweetness at the end.

That sharp metallic flavor is what mine are missing, and the very faint sweetness/fermented grain in the aftertaste.

Any idea why many German lagers have that metallic taste? (asking all the wise sages in general)

 

[TheMadKing]

Weihenstephan premium has the same flavors in a slightly different balance.

It's a metallic tartness tasted only on the tip of my tongue.

 

[Bilsch]

Interesting, I've spent a lot of time drinking beers in Germany but don't remember any flavors I'd describe as metallic. You mentioned sour.. possibly youare picking up on the sauergut which is one of the more distinctly unique flavors in German beer. Although I probably would'nt describe it as sour exactly it is very different taste then we are used to in North American beers. It is part of the three flavors I love so much in a great beer: fresh grain maltiness, hops and sauergut. Though fresh grain for me is more of an aroma then taste.

 

[Die_Beerery]

@Bilsch. Ditto.
Grape is sauergut, and can come across as tangy or yougurty.
I don’t taste metallic. Plenty of fresh lingering grain.

 

[TheMadKing]

Interesting, I've spent a lot of time drinking beers in Germany but don't remember any flavors I'd describe as metallic. You mentioned sour.. possibly youare picking up on the sauergut which is one of the more distinctly unique flavors in German beer. Although I probably would'nt describe it as sour exactly it is very different taste then we are used to in North American beers.

It could definitely be the sauergut. It tastes metallic only for a split second and then changes to tartness. My wife tastes the same thing.

That could also be a product of the fact that it's imported.

I'm going to add sauergut to my list of things to try for sure.

 

[TheMadKing]

@Bilsch. Ditto.
Grape is sauergut, and can come across as tangy or yougurty.
I don’t taste metallic. Plenty of fresh lingering grain.

Tangy is a good description, my brain is separating the tang into metallic + tart

 

[Die_Beerery]

Sauergut is nearly always a forgotten major aspect of German beer. Probably because no one knows what it is. In the freshest examples ( nothing imported in a can or bottle) each breweries sauergut house flavor is easy to pick out and uniquely different.

IMO opinion its another process you can’t really properly replicate German beer without.

 

[TheMadKing]

Sauergut is nearly always a forgotten major aspect of German beer. Probably because no one knows what it is. In the freshest examples ( nothing imported in a can or bottle) each breweries sauergut house flavor is easy to pick out and uniquely different.

IMO opinion its another process you can’t really properly replicate German beer without.

If I understand it correctly it's more or less a wild lactobacillus starter pitched into the mash to control pH and help scavenge oxygen correct?

The instructions for making it on your website are very clear, but not when to add it or how much is needed (which I'm sure depends on many factors including grist, pH, brewing salts, etc.) so how do you properly regulate pH with it?

 

[Bilsch]

And to complicate things further.. sauergut has a range of possible flavors with each brewery having its own distinctly unique taste from their inhouse reactor. Every beer drinkers bucket list should include a couple weeks in Bavaria doing a thorough palate calibration.

Edit: The Beerery beat me to it.

 

[Die_Beerery]

It’s basically naturally soured wort. You then dose that wort during your brewday as you would other acids. You titrate to find acid %.

 

[Big Monk]

It’s basically naturally soured wort. You then dose that wort during your brewday as you would other acids. You titrate to find acid %.

Yup. Find acid % then dose at 60 ml/kg of malt per 0.1 pH drop desired in the mash, 30 ml/kg of malt per 0.1 pH drop in the boil.

 

[TheMadKing]

It’s basically naturally soured wort. You then dose that wort during your brewday as you would other acids. You titrate to find acid %.

Does it need to be wort produced in the same way as the main beer (same grist, Lodo techniques, etc)?

 

[Die_Beerery]

Yessir.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Interesting on the no LoDo, but a technique much discussed because of that is the use of Sauergut to manage your wort ph. That might be something to try as well, especially your kettle ph near knock-out.

Just a thought...

Post #31 of this thread... not sayin', just sayin'!

 

[TheMadKing]

Question,

Has anyone tried drawing off a liter or so of wort acidified with sauermalz at the end of the mash and then adding it back just after flame out?

I'm curious if you could get a similar flavor profile to sauergut by doing that. I'm also curious if that's already a known technique that I've just not heard of.

 

[Big Monk]

Question,

Has anyone tried drawing off a liter or so of wort acidified with sauermalz at the end of the mash and then adding it back just after flame out?

I'm curious if you could get a similar flavor profile to sauergut by doing that. I'm also curious if that's already a known technique that I've just not heard of.

Well, Sauermalz is acidified by spraying Pils malt with Sauergut, although much of the nuance flavor from Sauergut comes from dosing a high volume of low acid into the mash and boil.

You could try it out but I would suggest brewing a few beers with Sauergut first to get a baseline. My gut (no pun intended) and my experience tasting beers made with Sauergut tells me that it's not a flavor that can be duplicated exactly by other means.

With that said, Sauermalz is a great way to acidify the mash. I always use Sauermalz as my main form of acid in brewing.

 

[TheMadKing]

Well, Sauermalz is acidified by spraying Pils malt with Sauergut, although much of the nuance flavor from Sauergut comes from dosing a high volume of low acid into the mash and boil.

You could try it out but I would suggest brewing a few beers with Sauergut first to get a baseline. My gut (no pun intended) and my experience tasting beers made with Sauergut tells me that it's not a flavor that can be duplicated exactly by other means.

With that said, Sauermalz is a great way to acidify the mash. I always use Sauermalz as my main form of acid in brewing.

I suspect that you're right in terms of duplicating the sauergut flavor, but it may be a viable method of boosting the sweet grainy wort flavor in the finished beer.

I do routinely use ~3% sauermalz in my beers though I usually also use a small amount of 88% lactic acid in lighter beers to get my pH in line

I fully intend to make a batch of saurgut in my wife's instant pot (I can mini mash and incubate in the same vessel... Very convenient) and try it out, but I just got thinking