Discussion on malty German beers

[Big Monk]

That’s what I thought the answer was. I do BIAB and don’t have a pump. I have tried manually whirlpooling several times, but wasn’t successful. I never ended up with a trub cone. Just a layer at the bottom of the kettle where everything settled out. I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong. What is the brewtan b for?

Don’t forget about those mini DC solar pumps. They run on a wal wart, accept NPT fittings, and are rated for 100 °C.

They are nice little transfer pumps and could help with whirlpooling and can be had for $12-$20 depending on what eBay auctions are running at that time.

 

[Big Monk]

You're not doing anything wrong, that's pretty typical if you don't have the ability to whirlpool. I would suggest overbuilding your recipe by about 1/2 gallon and just leave all that settled gunk in the kettle.

For a long time I just dumped my entire kettle in the fermenter but I've since stopped doing that, mostly because of the hop matter it carries with it. I was getting some harsh bitterness from it.

The fact that it can cause staling in finished beer isn't something I've personally observed but the chemistry is sound as far as I can tell.

Brewtan B is a tannin compound that chelates metal ions as well as claims to improve shelf life of finished beer.

Brewtan B will also drop lipids and protein material out with the spent grains if used in the mash.

 

[schematix]

Brewtan B will also drop lipids and protein material out with the spent grains if used in the mash.

When I started using BTB my mash started getting a purple’ish layer on top. iPhone jacked with the color in this photo a little but this is what the top of my grain beds normally look like after being drained.

The boil foam is also white instead of brown, presumably because that stuff stayed behind.

It definitely binds some stuff.

 

[TheMadKing]

Devils Backbone wrote me back

Their brewing process is proprietary and they can't discuss it.... Mother*$@$Ing InBev scum [emoji35]

 

[dmtaylor]

If perhaps grapiness is what you actually seek (I finally figured out that this is what *I* seek in a good German lager), I found the following thread very helpful. It seems perhaps sauergut is the way to get this. The other key might be WLP833. Unfortunately I personally have yet to test either one of these hypotheses, but I intend to in near future. FYI -- the chemical name for this grape flavor is in fact NOT methyl anthranilate (as provided in the title of the linked thread), but rather ethyl heptanoate.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=26580.0

Hope this helps somebody, hope I might be onto something good (besides LODO!).

 

[Dade0]

Decoction

Sent from my XT1575 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[Big Monk]

@TheMadKing

Would you say your beers attenuate well? What is your current mashing schedule like? You seem to be having healthy fermentation, is that correct? What brands of malt are you using for German styles?

 

[TheMadKing]

@TheMadKing

Would you say your beers attenuate well? What is your current mashing schedule like? You seem to be having healthy fermentation, is that correct? What brands of malt are you using for German styles?

I would say my attenuation is average but I would need to go back and start pulling numbers to actually get some AA , the most recent few batches have been as predicted, but still pretty high. My Dunkel on tap now finished at 1.016 and I wanted to get a couple more points out of it.

I usually use weyerman since its what my lhbs carries, but gambrinous (sp?) is a close second and briess specialty malts aren't uncommon.

I BIAB and up until my most recent brew day, which is still fermenting, I have done a single infusion mash somewhere between 149 and 154 for most beers. I hold my temp pretty well for a full 60 minutes, usually losing between 1 and 4 degrees depending on the weather.

In the past I've done decoction mashed just for fun, but they are a pain.

Just recently I modified my system with a false bottom and a better pump so I can direct fire with my bag in the pot and I brewed a foreign extra stout using a hockhurz mash with 30 minute rests at 146 and 158 and then a mashout at 168.

 

[TheMadKing]

If perhaps grapiness is what you actually seek (I finally figured out that this is what *I* seek in a good German lager), I found the following thread very helpful. It seems perhaps sauergut is the way to get this. The other key might be WLP833. Unfortunately I personally have yet to test either one of these hypotheses, but I intend to in near future. FYI -- the chemical name for this grape flavor is in fact NOT methyl anthranilate (as provided in the title of the linked thread), but rather ethyl heptanoate.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=26580.0

Hope this helps somebody, hope I might be onto something good (besides LODO!).

I use wlp833 almost exclusively because I love the flavors it has, but I would have never thought to call it grape.

I have seen that description on the sauergut tutorials on the Lodo website. It's a flavor I'm going to need to look for because it's not one I've ever picked out on my own.

It seems like most of the beer judges on that thread were thinking of it as a flaw though, not a desirable characteristic.

My wife just bought an instapot so I plan to use that to make sauergut and try it.

 

[Dland]

My limited two cents worth, just on the recipe side; 95% Pilsner malt with about 5% Munich or Vienna, with mash temp in lower range, gets me a malty taste I do not find too sweet. And try not to over hop, over 35 IBUs tends to overpower the maltyness in my opinion.

But have have not had opportunity to drink much fresh German beer, so what do I know.

 

[Big Monk]

Just recently I modified my system with a false bottom and a better pump so I can direct fire with my bag in the pot and I brewed a foreign extra stout using a Hochkurz mash with 30 minute rests at 146 and 158 and then a mashout at 168.

A few things:

1.) Do you recirculate the entire time during the mash? This will help ensure full (100%) conversion.

2.) Try splitting the Beta rest into two, using 20 min. @ 146F and 15-20 min. at 148-149F. I know that for the 2017-2018 batches of Weyermann malts (and other continental malsters for that matter) there were some slightly higher gelatinization temperatures, meaning that rests at the lower end of the Beta rest may have trouble on their own. Brauwelt had suggested a "High Gelatinization" mash whereby you use a multi-stage Beta mashing regiman to ensure full conversion and attenuation. They offered data on the duration and effectiveness for using 3 separate Beta rests at 145-147, 148-149, and 153F respectively. You should be good without the third rest.

3.) Try bumping up the Alpha rest temperature to 162F.

4.) Do you hold the mashout temp? I would recommend 10-15 minutes if you have the ability and patience to do so.

See where that gets you. Doesn't involve anything crazy and if the improvement shows progress toward your goal but not the achievement of the goal in its entirety, you can move on to other methods that are in the arsenal.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

OK, call me crazy if you must, but I like about 7.5% of ballpark 10L caramel or crystal in my Pils, Pilsner's, and other light lagers. And to double down on my insanity, sometimes I make it 20L.

I have a sneaking suspicion that at least some German breweries are using ballpark 10L crystal at up to perhaps this amount in their Pils type brews...

 

[Big Monk]

OK, call me crazy if you must, but I like about 7.5% of ballpark 10L caramel or crystal in my Pils, Pilsner's, and other light lagers. And to double down on my insanity, sometimes I make it 20L.

I have a sneaking suspicion that at least some German breweries are using ballpark 10L crystal at up to perhaps this amount in their Pils type brews...

It shouldn't be a suspicion because it's a fact. CaraHell is an incredibly common malt in Weihenstephan's beers. CaraMunich II is staple at Ayinger. And so on and so forth.

Lighter cara malts in higher percentages and Darker cara malts in lower percentages are staples in many of the best Bavarian lager recipes.

 

[Bassman2003]

Scotty, could you explain a bit more about the 10-15 min mashout rest? I have always done a mashout but never thought of it as a "rest". I read on the LODO forum it is a source for head retention. Thanks!

 

[TheMadKing]

1.) Do you recirculate the entire time during the mash? This will help ensure full (100%) conversion.

Yes, sorry I meant to say that, but I have a chugger pump that I use for constant recirculation. I have always had near 100% conversion in my mashes and my mash efficiency is normally around 80-85% which I'm happy with

2.) Try splitting the Beta rest into two, using 20 min. @ 146F and 15-20 min. at 148-149F. I know that for the 2017-2018 batches of Weyermann malts (and other continental malsters for that matter) there were some slightly higher gelatinization temperatures, meaning that rests at the lower end of the Beta rest may have trouble on their own. Brauwelt had suggested a "High Gelatinization" mash whereby you use a multi-stage Beta mashing regiman to ensure full conversion and attenuation. They offered data on the duration and effectiveness for using 3 separate Beta rests at 145-147, 148-149, and 153F respectively. You should be good without the third rest.

I was reading that recently as well, so I'll give that a shot, thanks!

3.) Try bumping up the Alpha rest temperature to 162F.

This seems like its way up near the upper end of alpha temps if I'm remembering correctly, borderline denaturing territory

4.) Do you hold the mashout temp? I would recommend 10-15 minutes if you have the ability and patience to do so.

No, I was pulling the bag and lautering as soon as I hit 168 throughout the mash - what's the benefit of this for BIAB where I go from mash directly to boil with no sparge?

 

[Big Monk]

Scotty, could you explain a bit more about the 10-15 min mashout rest? I have always done a mashout but never thought of it as a "rest". I read on the LODO forum it is a source for head retention. Thanks!

In promotes head retention and overall foam quality though the presence of glycoprotiens.

I'm blanking on whether they are retained or produced at this stage but I can attest to the superior foam stand quality (appearance, duration, lacing, etc.) on my step mashed beers.

Granted, there are other factors influencing this as well so it's not a magic bullet, but at 10-15 minutes (What is that when you are already mashing for a while anyway?) it doesn't hurt. If for some reason i bypass a mashout rest, I do notice a hit in overall foam quality, but it is by no means bad.

 

[Big Monk]

This seems like its way up near the upper end of alpha temps if I'm remembering correctly, borderline denaturing territory.

It's not. Give it a try. This may actually help you greatly.

No, I was pulling the bag and lautering as soon as I hit 168 throughout the mash - what's the benefit of this for BIAB where I go from mash directly to boil with no sparge?

See my previous post. Going right to boil temps can happen very quickly. Stopping at 171-172 for 10-15 minutes can help to bolster the presentation and quality of foam, which as we know, enhances the overall quality of the beer.

 

[shelly_belly]

My method for a good malty beer is European malts and a clean, high attenuating yeast. WLP802 is my favorite. I make a 1 gallon starter for a 5 gallon batch.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Stopping at 171-172 for 10-15 minutes can help to bolster the presentation and quality of foam

Could this be done in the kettle before boiling, say, once you've completely runoff and haven't done a mashout?

 

[cooper]

So are these rest temps good to do with all (highly modified) malts or more so for the Munich and/or Vienna?

Such as:

20 minute rest at 146
20 minute rest at 149
20 minute rest at 153
20 minute rest at 162
15 minute rest at 168

 

[Big Monk]

Could this be done in the kettle before boiling, say, once you've completely runoff and haven't done a mashout?

Not really. You are treating it as a final mash step.

It would be like saying, "Can I runoff my mash after the Beta rest and just heat to 162 for the Alpha rest in the kettle?"

The presence of the actual mash is required. It's a good question though.

 

[Big Monk]

So are these rest temps good to do with all (highly modified) malts or more so for the Munich and/or Vienna?

Such as:

20 minute rest at 146
20 minute rest at 149
20 minute rest at 153
20 minute rest at 162
15 minute rest at 168

All malts. I would increase the Alpha rest (162F) to 30 minutes. I would increase the mashout temp to 171-172F.

 

[cooper]

All malts. I would increase the Alpha rest (162F) to 30 minutes. I would increase the mashout temp to 171-172F.

Thanks! I'll definitely give this a shot in my next batch!

 

[TheMadKing]

My method for a good malty beer is European malts and a clean, high attenuating yeast. WLP802 is my favorite. I make a 1 gallon starter for a 5 gallon batch.

One common thread between the lodo and non-lodo folks alike is very high pitch rates, thanks! I know Jamil's work with pitch rates hinted at this as well.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks Scotty. I will give the mashout rest a try.

 

[TheMadKing]

@TheMadKing

Would you say your beers attenuate well?

So I've gone back through my notes and compiled some numbers:

• My apparent attenuation on my current Dunkel was 72%
• For my tropical stout that I made awhile back it was 67%
• For my house pale ale it was 75%
• For my festbier (munich style tent beer) I had 79% - this was one of my best german lagers and I did a decoction mashout on it - interesting
• Pilsner hit 81% - I was very happy with this beer as well
• My double decocted doppelbock hit 77%

So overall I think I'm in the right range. I could get a couple more points out of them though. I just recently started using pure O2 for oxygenating my wort, and I think I chronically underpitch my beers very slightly.

I just bought a 5L erlenmeyer flask so I can make much bigger starters than my current 2L allows. Hopefully that will help.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Have to tag this for further reading...

 

[imasickboy]

Have to tag this for further reading...

+1

 

[Miraculix]

My next beer will use the hoch kurz schedule with 15 min mashout. Let's see what this does to the beer. The next one afterwatds will be with double decoction. Some warm lager.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Hornswoggle.

I've said this previously, but show me somebody, anybody who has racked up dozens of medals/trophies/etc with competition winning LODO brews. If it were that simple (I'm not saying it's easy) then everyone would be doing it.

OP asked for other avenues to improve his beers.

Is this enough. Or is a fair amount of medals and being featured in many print magazines, books and the NYtimes not enough?

Don’t worry I have a bunch more that’s not framed and hung. This is just in my office at work. [emoji6]

 

[skw]

One trick of German lager brewers I've heard - according to some German home brewers, Augustiner is separating the husks and only mashes with the kernels to keep off flavors out. Then they make a separate husk "tea" that they blend in to get a calculated dose of the desired graininess back.

And don't forget the influence of yeast strains, lager yeasts are much more diverse than many think. Here's an article in a German hobby brewer's magazine: https://translate.google.com/transl...cle/ende-der-neutralitaet/&edit-text=&act=url

I don't know if any of the US yeast suppliers carries the W120 strain (and if they do, under what name...), but if you can get your hands on that strain it should be worth a try.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I don't know if any of the US yeast suppliers carries the W120 strain (and if they do, under what name...), but if you can get your hands on that strain it should be worth a try.

DerDerDasBierBraut over on the hobbybrauer.de forum organises group buys from Weihenstephan - they have minimum order of 10 - so it may be worth getting in touch with Jens and seeing if you can organise something. Weihenstephan seem to be going in a different direction to the NCYC, they are trying to make a bit of an effort to connect with homebrewers - their yeasts cost €9 plus shipping, but they need 10 days to grow up most of them, so it's more of a Brewlab kind of deal than NCYC.

 

[Vale71]

Please don't try to smuggle (ehm.. sorry, "import") yeast into the US of A. As it's a living organism customs will have a fit and you won't be happy with the end result, at all.

Edit: I'm not kidding, the FDA treats yeast like livestock. See for yourself.

 

[Die_Beerery]

One trick of German lager brewers I've heard - according to some German home brewers, Augustiner is separating the husks and only mashes with the kernels to keep off flavors out. Then they make a separate husk "tea" that they blend in to get a calculated dose of the desired graininess back.

And don't forget the influence of yeast strains, lager yeasts are much more diverse than many think. Here's an article in a German hobby brewer's magazine

Thats called a Kubessa maischverfahren. Thats only for decoction and to allow the beer to have less herbstoffe. Decoction brings about that.

 

[skw]

Apparently beer can be brought into the country duty-free for personal use. What if it happens to be not pasteurized?

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/de...g-homemade-wine)-to-the-u.s.-for-personal-use

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Please don't try to smuggle (ehm.. sorry, "import") yeast into the US of A. As it's a living organism customs will have a fit and you won't be happy with the end result, at all.

Edit: I'm not kidding, the FDA treats yeast like livestock. See for yourself.

The guidelines to that table specifically exclude "informal" entry via mail or personal baggage. That list is only about whether it needs to be prenotified as food or not when being formally imported, it's not about livestock as such.

 

[Vale71]

Apparently beer can be brought into the country duty-free for personal use. What if it happens to be not pasteurized?

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/190/~/bringing-alcohol-(including-homemade-wine)-to-the-u.s.-for-personal-use

Then you just have to hope that the customs officer has never heard of this "Pasteur guy".

 

[Vale71]

The guidelines to that table specifically exclude "informal" entry via mail or personal baggage. That list is only about whether it needs to be prenotified as food or not when being formally imported, it's not about livestock as such.

That just means you don't have to pre-notify in case it's mail or baggage, it doesn't mean it becomes unregulated. Try taking a salami in your personal baggage and you'll see how unfriendly US customs officers can become...

 

[Northern_Brewer]

That just means you don't have to pre-notify in case it's mail or baggage, it doesn't mean it becomes unregulated. Try taking a salami in your personal baggage and you'll see how unfriendly US customs officers can become...

No - but it does mean it's covered by a different list to that one. Just look at it - yeast is in the same FD3 category as nitrogen or limestone.

Meanwhile, in the real world, a number of HBTers have imported yeast from Europe with no problems.

 

[Vale71]

I'm sure it's all fun and games, until somone loses an eye (or gets caught by customs ).