Discussion on malty German beers

[TheMadKing]

Don't be scared about changing more than 1 variable at time. You're not publishing peer reviewed scientific research here... If you only ever change 1 thing at a time your pace of progress will be very slow. Now with that said don't try to change 10 things, if anything because it make a lot more room for error.

I think the best way to see that the low oxygen process is real is to just do the mash. Even if you don't execute the rest of the process (light boiling, yeast, spunding, etc) and lose those flavors, you will at least observe them in the mash and know what you've done has changed the wort.

As others have said... hard boil your strike water for 5 (max 10) minutes. Rapidly chill to strike temp. Add your minerals and sulfites (10-20 ppm) at about 200F, slowly underlet the mash, give it a stir, and continue as normal. You can't really skip this part of the process (unless you use the yeast method, but that's another topic). It's as simple as pre-boil, sulfites and underlet slowly. A mash cap helps but isn't strictly necessary. Take small samples of your wort through the process and taste them. The other obvious sensory different is the lack of mash aroma. If it still smells strongly you didn't get the oxygen out of the water or are introducing too much.

Changing multiple variables all at once and then assigning all of the benefits to a single attribute makes my engineering spidey senses tingle...

 

[Jayjay1976]

"Please help me solve problem X! But please don't tell me to use solution Y, even though solution Y has solved problem X for hundreds of other people."

Hornswoggle.

I've said this previously, but show me somebody, anybody who has racked up dozens of medals/trophies/etc with competition winning LODO brews. If it were that simple (I'm not saying it's easy) then everyone would be doing it.

OP asked for other avenues to improve his beers.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I really doubt German breweries pre-boil and then rapidly chill the large quantities of water they mash with, the energy costs would be prohibitive. If they're already forgoing the time and expense of step mashing in favor of single infusion, I really can't imagine it makes any sense to waste energy pre-boiling. Having lived in Germany I can say with certainty that energy is expensive.

 

[Big Monk]

I really doubt German breweries pre-boil and then rapidly chill the large quantities of water they mash with, the energy costs would be prohibitive.

...I really can't imagine it makes any sense to waste energy pre-boiling.

They definitely don't. Most larger breweries use column stripping methods if they desire de-oxygenated mashing water.

There is a difference between eliminating oxygen at the homebrew level and at the macro brewing level. Pre-boiling and using anti-oxidants is a "hack" used to approximate what larger brewers do through mechanical and physical means (i.e. stripping and square-cube law of vessel size).

If they're already forgoing the time and expense of step mashing in favor of single infusion...

I'm not sure where this comes from but at the very least most of them are doing a Hochkurz step mash with a beta, alpha, and mashout step. I very much doubt, given what these brewers, especially the macro brewers, learn in those German brewing schools that they single infuse.

 

[Big Monk]

Changing multiple variables all at once and then assigning all of the benefits to a single attribute makes my engineering spidey senses tingle...

As an experiment, the thing to do would be to brew a beer where you implement all the non-oxygen process changes, i.e. soft boil, spunding, underlet, etc. and then brew a beer where you implement those changes PLUS oxygen exclusion on the hot side.

See what you prefer. See what people close to you prefer. It isnt a contest. YOU have to like the beer you brew and if people you know drink your beer, THEY should like your beer as well. If you think one version of the same beer is better with different methods then that's a good thing.

If you try certain brewing methods and the beer tastes better to you, noticeably better in fact, then go with that.

If you don't think your beer can improve and you are happy with it, then no changes should be necessary, i.e. YOU are the best judge as to whether things improve YOUR beer.

 

[TheMadKing]

As an experiment, the thing to do would be to brew a beer where you implement all the non-oxygen process changes, i.e. soft boil, spunding, underlet, etc. and then brew a beer where you implement those changes PLUS oxygen exclusion on the hot side.

See what you prefer. See what people close to you prefer. It isnt a contest. YOU have to like the beer you brew and if people you know drink your beer, THEY should like your beer as well. If you think one version of the same beer is better with different methods then that's a good thing.

If you try certain brewing methods and the beer tastes better to you, noticeably better in fact, then go with that.

If you don't think your beer can improve and you are happy with it, then no changes should be necessary, i.e. YOU are the best judge as to whether things improve YOUR beer.

I'm not sure I understand... Can you clarify the difference between those process changes and excluding oxygen on the hot side?

It seems like soft boiling, et al, are part of the steps needed to exclude oxygen on the hot side.

Just a point though, I frequently enter competitions. So yes... It really is a contest and I want to make better beer than the other competition entries. And I can make the best beer in the world, but if it's so delicate that I can't bottle it or fill a growler with it to share without destroying it, then it's all pointless to me. I don't brew just for myself. I brew because I like to share my beer and I have pride in my creations.

 

[Vale71]

I'm not sure where this comes from but at the very least most of them are doing a Hochkurz step mash with a beta, alpha, and mashout step. I very much doubt, given what these brewers, especially the macro brewers, learn in those German brewing schools that they single infuse.

Believe me, despite what they (and yours truthfully) have learned in German brewing school when you brew big-scale every cent counts and one sure way to reduce cost is to maximize turnout. The likes of Augustiner and Co. knock out 12 brews a day per production line, this means you have 2 hours tops to go from mash-in to yeast pitching. That means around 50 minutes for mashing, 30 for sparging (or rather straining as they all use mash filters) and the rest for what amounts to boiling at those places. There really is no time for a multti-step mash, wet millling and saccharification + mash out is really all there is time for. They also pay premium prices for their malt as the specs have to be really tight since they cannot make any process adjustments in the brewery. On the other hand, they do get a nifty quantity discount on malts and hops...

 

[TheMadKing]

I also just want to thank everyone for keeping this civil. Especially Techbrau and RPIScotty... I know you guys have taken a lot of crap over the last couple years and I don't want to add to it. I'm a skeptic, but I like to think I'm a fair skeptic

 

[Big Monk]

The initial malt flavor when it first hits your pallet is almost perfect, it's rich and full and has everything I'm after. But then you swallow and its sweet and heavy and it lingers...

Believe it or not, what you are likely tasting is the cloying sweetness associated with oxidized (on the hot side) crystal and higher kilned base malts like Munich.

If Lodo brewing accomplishes that, then I'm willing to test it, but I'm admittedly skeptical.

Try this:

1.) Brew some beers with quality continental malts, a simple multi step mash, and good fermentation practices (cold fermentation and excellent yeast health.). Evaluate those beers against this cloying quality you perceive.

2.) If those beers are lacking what you desire, try adding in the soft boil and hammering down on your cold side practices. Evaluate those beers against this cloying quality you perceive.

3.) If those beers are still lacking what you desire, try adding hot side oxygen exclusion. Then evaluate and see what you think.

Keep in mind that a group of like-minded people decided a handful of years ago to pursue many qualities of the beers from Weihenstephan, Ayinger, etc. because they made observations like you have about commercial beers and their own beers because they found them lacking ion certain qualities. They developed and distributed some methods that allowed them (and they hoped others) to obtain certain flavors and qualities in the beers they liked that had previously eluded them.

That group eventually fractured but the knowledge is still there. If it's not your thing then "no harm, no foul". No one will jump all over you about it.

Yet if you have certain flavors and qualities in mind, do yourself a favor and read up on the knowledge out there. It's there for those who are finding a certain set of parameters lacking, especially in lagers.

 

[Big Monk]

Believe me, despite what they (and yours truthfully) have learned in German brewing school when you brew big-scale every cent counts and one sure way to reduce cost is to maximize turnout. The likes of Augustiner and Co. knock out 12 brews a day per production line, this means you have 2 hours tops to go from mash-in to yeast pitching. That means around 50 minutes for mashing, 30 for sparging (or rather straining as they all use mash filters) and the rest for what amounts to boiling at those places. There really is no time for a multti-step mash, wet millling and saccharification + mash out is really all there is time for. They also pay premium prices for their malt as the specs have to be really tight since they cannot make any process adjustments in the brewery. On the other hand, they do get a nifty quantity discount on malts and hops...

I think the thing to remember, and what I could have been clearer on, is that even though they may pick a certain mashing temperature, they are sweeping through beta on the way and sweeping through the mashout range on the way to the boil, i.e. they are "resting" at certain temps for the time it takes to heat up.

I agree that things are done quite differently in your house vs. Weihenstephan, Ayinger, Agustiner, etc. but sometimes to try and approximate the final product you use a method that may logistically differ.

 

[TheMadKing]

Believe it or not, what you are likely tasting is the cloying sweetness associated with oxidized (on the hot side) crystal and higher kilned base malts like Munich.

I actually do associate that sweetness with excessive crystal malt. I almost never use any crystal malt in my German style beers - at most I'll use <10% caramunich - But I think you misunderstand me, and I didn't express it well. My beers are not cloying - only Sam Adams has that issue. Mine have the nice dry finish that I'm after, and hops balance is based on recipe, but they are missing that upfront malt flavor.

Try this:

1.) Brew some beers with quality continental malts, a simple multi step mash, and good fermentation practices (cold fermentation and excellent yeast health.). Evaluate those beers against this cloying quality you perceive.

2.) If those beers are lacking what you desire, try adding in the soft boil and hammering down on your cold side practices. Evaluate those beers against this cloying quality you perceive.

3.) If those beers are still lacking what you desire, try adding hot side oxygen exclusion. Then evaluate and see what you think.

Keep in mind that a group of like-minded people decided a handful of years ago to pursue many qualities of the beers from Weihenstephan, Ayinger, etc. because they made observations like you have about commercial beers and their own beers because they found them lacking ion certain qualities. They developed and distributed some methods that allowed them (and they hoped others) to obtain certain flavors and qualities in the beers they liked that had previously eluded them.

That group eventually fractured but the knowledge is still there. If it's not your thing then "no harm, no foul". No one will jump all over you about it.

Yet if you have certain flavors and qualities in mind, do yourself a favor and read up on the knowledge out there. It's there for those who are finding a certain set of parameters lacking, especially in lagers.

I have read the paper and I understand the techniques, but it seems to me that some of these factors must outweigh others and I'm approaching it cautiously, from a diagnostic standpoint, rather than just diving in. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I do like your approach though, and I'll probably modify it for my own uses and try it

 

[Big Monk]

I also just want to thank everyone for keeping this civil. Especially Techbrau and RPIScotty... I know you guys have taken a lot of crap over the last couple years and I don't want to add to it. I'm a skeptic, but I like to think I'm a fair skeptic

I'm merely a hanger-on!

Guys like @techbrau and @Die_Beerery deserve much more credit than a lackey like me for hanging in there.

 

[Bassman2003]

I have really enjoyed learning about LODO. To me it is why I love homebrewing so much. The grand experiment to make great beer. It is the spirit of homebrewing and am still surprised why it gets such a bad rap.

About changing too many tings at once - from what I am learning and how I see oxygen interaction, it is kind of all or nothing. If you make gains on the hot side but they fade quickly on the cold side you are not very far ahead. That is why I suggested one major hot side tweak and one major cold side tweak.

Hot side = creating more flavor
Cold side = retaining the flavor.

I did not add any of the sulfites and I may never go that far. I do not need to compete with Weihenstephan. The balance of easy to execute brew days and process is totally on my mind. Keep us updated!

 

[Jayjay1976]

Another one of these threads? This is getting silly, I'm out.

 

[Big Monk]

Another one of these threads? This is getting silly, I'm out.

I always find it hilarious when the person adding nothing constructive to a thread is disgusted and bows out.

We’ll miss your thrilling contributions!

 

[RPh_Guy]

I haven't been to Germany but I really like Veltin's Grevensteiner. It has a unique malty character that I've never had in any other beer, including imported Ayinger and Weihenstephaner.
Interesting thread, thanks everyone!

 

[Blackdirt_cowboy]

I need to drink up some of my beer supply. All my kegs are full. I’m eagerly looking forward to implementing some of the suggestions given here. One question about carbonating naturally...how do you manage all the trub? I don’t whirlpool and dump everything from the boil kettle into the fermentor. If I then transfer all this into the keg to carbonate naturally, I’ll end up with 1/2 gallon of trub and only 4 1/2 gallons of beer.

 

[Big Monk]

I need to drink up some of my beer supply. All my kegs are full. I’m eagerly looking forward to implementing some of the suggestions given here. One question about carbonating naturally...how do you manage all the trub? I don’t whirlpool and dump everything from the boil kettle into the fermentor. If I then transfer all this into the keg to carbonate naturally, I’ll end up with 1/2 gallon of trub and only 4 1/2 gallons of beer.

You need to whirlpool and not dump everything into the fermenter!

Limiting trub at each stage (mash to kettle, kettle to fermenter, etc.) is Key. You really want to take great pains to remove hot and cold break.

Obviously things like using a BIAB Bag for mash filtering, Brewtan B, kettle finings, and whirlpooling out the kettle trub will help greatly.

 

[Blackdirt_cowboy]

That’s what I thought the answer was. I do BIAB and don’t have a pump. I have tried manually whirlpooling several times, but wasn’t successful. I never ended up with a trub cone. Just a layer at the bottom of the kettle where everything settled out. I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong. What is the brewtan b for?

 

[TheMadKing]

That’s what I thought the answer was. I do BIAB and don’t have a pump. I have tried manually whirlpooling several times, but wasn’t successful. I never ended up with a trub cone. Just a layer at the bottom of the kettle where everything settled out. I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong. What is the brewtan b for?

You're not doing anything wrong, that's pretty typical if you don't have the ability to whirlpool. I would suggest overbuilding your recipe by about 1/2 gallon and just leave all that settled gunk in the kettle.

For a long time I just dumped my entire kettle in the fermenter but I've since stopped doing that, mostly because of the hop matter it carries with it. I was getting some harsh bitterness from it.

The fact that it can cause staling in finished beer isn't something I've personally observed but the chemistry is sound as far as I can tell.

Brewtan B is a tannin compound that chelates metal ions as well as claims to improve shelf life of finished beer.

 

[Big Monk]

That’s what I thought the answer was. I do BIAB and don’t have a pump. I have tried manually whirlpooling several times, but wasn’t successful. I never ended up with a trub cone. Just a layer at the bottom of the kettle where everything settled out. I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong. What is the brewtan b for?

Don’t forget about those mini DC solar pumps. They run on a wal wart, accept NPT fittings, and are rated for 100 °C.

They are nice little transfer pumps and could help with whirlpooling and can be had for $12-$20 depending on what eBay auctions are running at that time.

 

[Big Monk]

You're not doing anything wrong, that's pretty typical if you don't have the ability to whirlpool. I would suggest overbuilding your recipe by about 1/2 gallon and just leave all that settled gunk in the kettle.

For a long time I just dumped my entire kettle in the fermenter but I've since stopped doing that, mostly because of the hop matter it carries with it. I was getting some harsh bitterness from it.

The fact that it can cause staling in finished beer isn't something I've personally observed but the chemistry is sound as far as I can tell.

Brewtan B is a tannin compound that chelates metal ions as well as claims to improve shelf life of finished beer.

Brewtan B will also drop lipids and protein material out with the spent grains if used in the mash.

 

[schematix]

Brewtan B will also drop lipids and protein material out with the spent grains if used in the mash.

When I started using BTB my mash started getting a purple’ish layer on top. iPhone jacked with the color in this photo a little but this is what the top of my grain beds normally look like after being drained.

The boil foam is also white instead of brown, presumably because that stuff stayed behind.

It definitely binds some stuff.

 

[TheMadKing]

Devils Backbone wrote me back

Their brewing process is proprietary and they can't discuss it.... Mother*$@$Ing InBev scum [emoji35]

 

[dmtaylor]

If perhaps grapiness is what you actually seek (I finally figured out that this is what *I* seek in a good German lager), I found the following thread very helpful. It seems perhaps sauergut is the way to get this. The other key might be WLP833. Unfortunately I personally have yet to test either one of these hypotheses, but I intend to in near future. FYI -- the chemical name for this grape flavor is in fact NOT methyl anthranilate (as provided in the title of the linked thread), but rather ethyl heptanoate.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=26580.0

Hope this helps somebody, hope I might be onto something good (besides LODO!).

 

[Dade0]

Decoction

Sent from my XT1575 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[Big Monk]

@TheMadKing

Would you say your beers attenuate well? What is your current mashing schedule like? You seem to be having healthy fermentation, is that correct? What brands of malt are you using for German styles?

 

[TheMadKing]

@TheMadKing

Would you say your beers attenuate well? What is your current mashing schedule like? You seem to be having healthy fermentation, is that correct? What brands of malt are you using for German styles?

I would say my attenuation is average but I would need to go back and start pulling numbers to actually get some AA , the most recent few batches have been as predicted, but still pretty high. My Dunkel on tap now finished at 1.016 and I wanted to get a couple more points out of it.

I usually use weyerman since its what my lhbs carries, but gambrinous (sp?) is a close second and briess specialty malts aren't uncommon.

I BIAB and up until my most recent brew day, which is still fermenting, I have done a single infusion mash somewhere between 149 and 154 for most beers. I hold my temp pretty well for a full 60 minutes, usually losing between 1 and 4 degrees depending on the weather.

In the past I've done decoction mashed just for fun, but they are a pain.

Just recently I modified my system with a false bottom and a better pump so I can direct fire with my bag in the pot and I brewed a foreign extra stout using a hockhurz mash with 30 minute rests at 146 and 158 and then a mashout at 168.

 

[TheMadKing]

If perhaps grapiness is what you actually seek (I finally figured out that this is what *I* seek in a good German lager), I found the following thread very helpful. It seems perhaps sauergut is the way to get this. The other key might be WLP833. Unfortunately I personally have yet to test either one of these hypotheses, but I intend to in near future. FYI -- the chemical name for this grape flavor is in fact NOT methyl anthranilate (as provided in the title of the linked thread), but rather ethyl heptanoate.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=26580.0

Hope this helps somebody, hope I might be onto something good (besides LODO!).

I use wlp833 almost exclusively because I love the flavors it has, but I would have never thought to call it grape.

I have seen that description on the sauergut tutorials on the Lodo website. It's a flavor I'm going to need to look for because it's not one I've ever picked out on my own.

It seems like most of the beer judges on that thread were thinking of it as a flaw though, not a desirable characteristic.

My wife just bought an instapot so I plan to use that to make sauergut and try it.

 

[Dland]

My limited two cents worth, just on the recipe side; 95% Pilsner malt with about 5% Munich or Vienna, with mash temp in lower range, gets me a malty taste I do not find too sweet. And try not to over hop, over 35 IBUs tends to overpower the maltyness in my opinion.

But have have not had opportunity to drink much fresh German beer, so what do I know.