Diluting Tapwater with Distilled or RO

[Nodak_Brewer]

I'm not ready to delve into advanced brew water science, but I'd like to alter my water a little more precisely for lighter brews, more specifically German beers like hefeweizen, kolsch, etc. My water is very hard and alkaline, and in the past I just split it 50/50 with distilled and tap water, treated entirely with K-meta.

Does anyone else have hard/alkaline water and use a specific ratio of RO or distilled water to tap water, and do you treat all of it or just the stuff from the tap?

 

[Brewmegoodbeer]

You can send your water away to get analyzed to see what exact minerals are in it, or you county may have a water analysis document online. I just use distilled water and build the water profile myself, that way I get the exact water I want. You can get distilled water like 50-80 cents a gallon. If you know exactly what your tap water contains, you can build onto that water profile by adding the additional minerals required for your style. To start off, deff concentrate on your sulfate to chloride ratio, as that is the biggest factor to either a malt/hop forward, or balanced beer.

 

[z-bob]

I have very hard alkaline water. I got a water report from the city, but not sure how accurate it is (might be an average across several wells; the numbers don't balance)

I've brewed some good dark beers just by adding gypsum to dechlorinated tapwater for the mash, and sparging with pure RO water.

Lately I have been using gypsum, calcium chloride and "sour malt" in the mash to brew some lighter beers. Usually that's with about 60% tapwater and 40% RO water for the mash, and RO water sparge.

I have also experimented a little very recently using all tapwater plus gypsum and hydrochloric acid in the mash. Results aren't in yet on that.

I'm using the water calculator at brewerfriend.com to tell me how much salts and acid I need in a recipe. I haven't checked it against a pH meter or test strips, but my mash efficiencies are good and no weird tastes, so it must be close enough.

 

[brewprint]

I just got a water test done at my house only to find out that our water is out of a well. They have to treat it with salt. It's high in salt and alkalinity. Basically 1 gallon of water has a daily value of salt in it.

That being said, I immediately bought an RO system and am now 100% RO and I just toss .5 gram of each Calcium Chloride and Gypsum per gallon for doing a full volume mash. Beersmith was about dead on with pH and I just added a little lactic acid and I hit my target of 5.3.

My water was just too bad to even mix with better water. Could've fooled me, I thought that my beer has been good for years. I'm sure it'll be better now!

 

[stpug]

Looking at the 2010 water report for Fargo, ND indicates that the sodium and sulfate levels are pretty high (104 and 245, respectively) such that even a 50/50 dilution with distilled would still not yield adequate water for those "soft-water" beer styles. Couple those levels with the water's pH and alkalinity, and I think you'll find it requires too much acid to bring to reasonable levels. At least that's my very novice take on it.

Good call on the sulfite treatment because Fargo's water uses chloramines.

source: https://www.cityoffargo.com/attachm...ff-d9e708d28b08/2010 Water Quality Report.pdf

 

[ajdelange]

To start off, deff concentrate on your sulfate to chloride ratio, as that is the biggest factor to either a malt/hop forward, or balanced beer.

Bad advice. See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=302256

If you are going to concentrate on any particular aspect of water chemistry there is no question that alkalinity is the most significant. RO water doesn't have any to speak of hence RO water is always a good candidate.

 

[Nodak_Brewer]

I have basic environmental engineering coursework for water treatment, but I wish I'd paid more attention! I have much to learn, and for now I will just focus on dilution methods, adding water additions somewhere down the line. Perhaps even a 4:1 ratio of R.O. to tap water, but I'm worried that would drive some concentrations too low.

 

[z-bob]

I have basic environmental engineering coursework for water treatment, but I wish I'd paid more attention! I have much to learn, and for now I will just focus on dilution methods, adding water additions somewhere down the line. Perhaps even a 4:1 ratio of R.O. to tap water, but I'm worried that would drive some concentrations too low.

People brew with straight RO water all the time. You have to add some calcium salts and maybe some lactic acid or sour malt. The malt pretty much has everything else, except zinc. (I think you can ignore zinc, but I'm not sure. I've thought about getting a piece of galvanized metal to stir my kettle with)

 

[Brewmegoodbeer]

Bad advice. See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=302256

If you are going to concentrate on any particular aspect of water chemistry there is no question that alkalinity is the most significant. RO water doesn't have any to speak of hence RO water is always a good candidate.

Even if your water is alkaline (or lack there of), could you not adjust the mash PH after doughing in to your target 5.2-5.6 range? I assumed this was already being done. After balancing your PH, id say the next important thing would be your sulfate:chloride ratio. I use a guide to make my brewing water based upon the SRM of the beer. I'm sure this helps predict the right alkalinity for a SRM for easy acid adjustment, but I have never thought about alkalinity. I just adjust with lactic acid as needed.

" Residual alkalinity is a tool to help you get into the ballpark. Despite recent advances in understanding water and grain acidity, there is still no substitute for measuring the pH of your mash after mixing in the grains and then adjusting if needed with acid, acid malts or water additives." Brad Smith, the creator of Beersmith. http://beersmith.com/blog/2016/02/23/residual-alkalinity-and-ph-for-all-grain-beer-brewing/

 

[Yooper]

Even if your water is alkaline (or lack there of), could you not adjust the mash PH after doughing in to your target 5.2-5.6 range? I assumed this was already being done. After balancing your PH, id say the next important thing would be your sulfate:chloride ratio.

The sulfate:chloride ratio is probably the least important and reliable thing.

Here's a short reason why. Say have 20 ppm of sulfate and 10 ppm chloride. That's 2:1. If you have 400:200, that's also 2:1. But the first one is nearly RO water, and the second makes a beer that may be minerally and undrinkable.

The ratio is meaningless. What matters is the actual amount, not how much of it is in there relative to another substance. If you have a spaghetti sauce that has far too much salt in it, adding pepper in a certain ratio won't fix that. The same is true of sulfate and chloride- the ratio is meaningless.

 

[Brewmegoodbeer]

The sulfate:chloride ratio is probably the least important and reliable thing.

Here's a short reason why. Say have 20 ppm of sulfate and 10 ppm chloride. That's 2:1. If you have 400:200, that's also 2:1. But the first one is nearly RO water, and the second makes a beer that may be minerally and undrinkable.

The ratio is meaningless. What matters is the actual amount, not how much of it is in there relative to another substance. If you have a spaghetti sauce that has far too much salt in it, adding pepper in a certain ratio won't fix that. The same is true of sulfate and chloride- the ratio is meaningless.

Saying that "the ratio is meaningless" is invalid. Of course you would want to stay in the appropriate range of how much chloride and sulfate you would use to establish a certain ratio. Why would you use more if you can get the same ratio with less? This especially does not make sense if you are building a water profile from the ground up with RO or distilled water. If you are using tap water or water that already has chloride and sulfate in it, that's when you would have to really make sure your staying within the appropriate range of both, as you could add too much and it could impact your beer. I have a link below showing how much impact the chloride:sulfate ratio makes on how hop forward or malt forward your beer is. Cheers!

http://brulosophy.com/2016/10/03/water-chemistry-pt-6-sulfate-to-chloride-ratio-exbeeriment-results/

 

[stpug]

Saying that "the ratio is meaningless" is invalid. Of course you would want to stay in the appropriate range of how much chloride and sulfate you would use to establish a certain ratio. Why would you use more if you can get the same ratio with less? This especially does not make sense if you are building a water profile from the ground up with RO or distilled water. If you are using tap water or water that already has chloride and sulfate in it, that's when you would have to really make sure your staying within the appropriate range of both, as you could add too much and it could impact your beer. I have a link below showing how much impact the chloride:sulfate ratio makes on how hop forward or malt forward your beer is. Cheers!

http://brulosophy.com/2016/10/03/water-chemistry-pt-6-sulfate-to-chloride-ratio-exbeeriment-results/

Both of these are 2:1 sulfate:chloride ratio:

• 20ppm sulfate : 10ppm choride
• 150ppm sulfate : 75ppm choride

One is ideal for american pale ales, one is not; both are 2:1 ratio. In other words, ratio doesn't tell you anything about the actual quantity of minerals in the water; simply that one is of some proportion to the other. That is why ratio is an ineffective way to talk about mineralization of brew water. Same goes for talking about percent boiloff per hour.... but that's another thread.

 

[ajdelange]

Saying that "the ratio is meaningless" is invalid.

By itself, it is. There are two degrees of freedom here: sulfate concentration and chloride concentration. It is not enough to specify a ratio. 10:10 is not going to produce the same beer as 200:200. Now if you specify the amount of one, say chloride as 10, and the ratio (say 1:1) then you easily compute the sulfate concentration as 1*10 = 10. In this case the chloride concentration represents 1 DOF and the ratio the other. It's easier to just specify chloride and sulfate as you don't have to do any math (simple though it be).

All this is explained at

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=302256

which I referenced in an earlier post.

 

[Brewmegoodbeer]

By itself, it is. There are two degrees of freedom here: sulfate concentration and chloride concentration. It is not enough to specify a ratio. 10:10 is not going to produce the same beer as 200:200. Now if you specify the amount of one, say chloride as 10, and the ratio (say 1:1) then you easily compute the sulfate concentration as 1*10 = 10. In this case the chloride concentration represents 1 DOF and the ratio the other. It's easier to just specify chloride and sulfate as you don't have to do any math (simple though it be).

All this is explained at

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=302256

which I referenced in an earlier post.

I see what your saying. I suppose the term "ratio" is not the correct term to use because the ratio can be the same at different concentrations. I suppose it is better to just look at your concentration of each. You would want more chloride than sulfate in a malt forward beer, and you would want more sulfate than chloride in a hop forward beer. Balanced you would want about the same of each. Beersmith still breaks this down as a ratio to tell you how much of one you have over another.

 

[ajdelange]

I usually argue that one wants more chloride in a beer where he wants more of what chloride does and more sulfate if he wants more of what sulfate does and that brewers should learn what those things are by experiment. A particularly object to post that seem to imply that the ion concentrations do not matter as long as the ratio meets some criterion. Because people tend to fall into the net of making that assumption without understanding what is involved I tend to discourage the use of or even discussion of the ratio at every opportunity.

 

[Brewmegoodbeer]

By itself, it is. There are two degrees of freedom here: sulfate concentration and chloride concentration. It is not enough to specify a ratio. 10:10 is not going to produce the same beer as 200:200. Now if you specify the amount of one, say chloride as 10, and the ratio (say 1:1) then you easily compute the sulfate concentration as 1*10 = 10. In this case the chloride concentration represents 1 DOF and the ratio the other. It's easier to just specify chloride and sulfate as you don't have to do any math (simple though it be).

All this is explained at

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=302256

which I referenced in an earlier post.

Here is another question: Beersmith reccomends the range of sulfate to be 50-250 ppm and chloride to be 0-250. As long as you stay in those ranges to establish your "concentration values" to make a certain malt forward or hop forward beer, it should be fine with any style correct?

 

[Brewmegoodbeer]

I have attached what I use to build my mineral contents from distilled water for a certain style or SRM. Are you guys saying that I should not concentrate on the ratio of the sulfate to chloride used on this chart, but the exact concentration, as different concentrations are suitable for different styles? I just want to make sure I am doing it right for future batches. Thanks.

 

[Yooper]

I have attached what I use to build my mineral contents from distilled water for a certain style or SRM. Are you guys saying that I should not concentrate on the ratio of the sulfate to chloride used on this chart, but the exact concentration, as different concentrations are suitable for different styles? I just want to make sure I am doing it right for future batches. Thanks.

Yes, sort of.

That's pretty non-commital so I'll follow up by saying that for many of my IPAs, I don't like 300 ppm of sulfate as much as I like 150 ppm of sulfate. That doesn't fit the "profile", but it makes (to me) an IPA or pale ale that I prefer.

The sodium amounts generally don't matter, and rarely does the magnesium amount matter although they can bring certain things to the beer that you may (or may not) want in larger amounts. So instead of hitting a "target", you may find that you may use RO water and only add calcium chloride to a mild, and absolutely love it. It won't hit the target, but really the only target to shoot for in my opinion is a good mash pH anyway.

Think of the salts you are adding as just that- salts. Like seasonings in cooking, you can take a very good base beer and use brewing salts judiciously to tweak the "seasoning" to an excellent beer.

 

[Brewmegoodbeer]

That chart above works for me, so I am going to continue to use it and be non-commital until I have the time to sit around and read about water chemistry, and experiment with different salts to develop my own profiles that satisfy my own taste. I am only a year into this brewing venture that I love. I'd like to think I have learned a lot over this one year. Maybe one day I will be like you Yooper. I'll have to do some more reading and studying upon the different aspects of making great beer when I am not studying to be a doctor of pharmacy. This is why I love this craft. There is always something new to learn! Cheers.

 

[stpug]

That chart above works for me, so I am going to continue to use it and be non-commital until I have the time to sit around and read about water chemistry, and experiment with different salts to develop my own profiles that satisfy my own taste. I am only a year into this brewing venture that I love. I'd like to think I have learned a lot over this one year. Maybe one day I will be like you Yooper. I'll have to do some more reading and studying upon the different aspects of making great beer when I am not studying to be a doctor of pharmacy. This is why I love this craft. There is always something new to learn! Cheers.

I believe yooper was saying that she was being non-committal in her answer of "Yes, sort of"; not that you were being non-committal.

I think your chart is a reasonable one from which to work, and I agree that targeting the actual mineral concentrations (mostly sulfate and chloride, and to a much lesser degree the others) is a better way of formulating your brew water than working off of a "ratio", that is, unless the ratio is your actual concentration you're aiming for (e.g. 200:70 sulfate:chloride).

Last, I would recommend simply reading Bru'N water's webpage about 'Water Knowledge'. It's a lengthy read with lots of unknown words and jargon, but that's where it starts. You'll glean something from it that will affect how you view your brew water. Then you can just let it digest - however long that takes. Most likely, at some later point you'll refer back to it, or even new/other sources of information about brew water knowledge, and find other bits of stuff to chew on. As time goes on, these unusual things become more familiar and start to make more sense. Then things just progress naturally, forever and always, in every facet of life.