Help about my water profile

[adam88]

Hello All,

I've posted some questions into an other thread and i was routed to here.
I'm using Bru'n water calculator. But something is wrong or i do not know.
So i'm facing some problems (based on info i've received at the other thread)
-my tapwater is too hard (too high bicarbonate and CaO levels)
-for some reason the calculator said i need 0.7-0.8ml of 80% lactic acid / liter to lower the ph which amount was questioned at the other thread (0.7ml/L is too high volume)
May I ask some help to target a profile with this calculator which is suitable for NEIPA brewing via biab method?
My tapwater profile:
-Ca: 83 mg/L
-K: 1 mg/L
-Cl: 10 mg/L
-Mg: 47.1 mg/L
-Na: 7 mg/L
-Nitrate: 19mg/L
-Nitrite: <0.01mg/L
-Fe: 0.04 mg/L
-Sulfate: 12mg/L
-Nk: 22
-Ph: 7.56

Here are some pictures of the calculator and some info about value "NK" (it was told to me to bring this info to this question too)
"
By the way, I found a source for the meaning of the "Nk" value, for those who were wondering:

Water hardness
The pleasure value of potable water and efficiency of the water used for washing are determined in part by the hardness of water, that is, its CaO (calcium oxide) mg/litre ratio. Water hardness figures indicate that in the region of the capital the water is mostly of medium hardness. It is important to know that the harder the water, the more pleasant flavourit has, but the lesser it is suitable for washing, and our washing machine does not like hard water. In most of the cases – e.g. on the labels of the detergents – water hardness is indicated in terms of the German standard of hardness (nk)*.

• Very soft water: under 40 CaO mg/litre (4 nk)
• Soft water: between 40-80 CaO mg/litre (4-8 nk)
• Medium-hard water: between 80-180 CaO mg/litre (8-18 nk)
• Hard water: between 180-300 CaO mg/litre (18-30 nk)
• Very hard water: above 300 CaO mg/litre (30 nk)

In the service area of our Company, the average hardness of potable water is 141 CaO mg/l.

*The German standard for hardness (nk) is one tenth of the CaO mg/litre, so for 141 CaO mg/litre, for example, this value is 14.1 nk (2016).
Pass this information on to the Brew Science forum when posting your question there, together with screenshots of the new Bru'n Water calculations.

The originators/builders of Bru'n Water are on the Brew Science forum, they can help you with any questions on the matter.

Remember, I mentioned the missing Anions from your water report? Well we found those, and they are indeed in the alkalinity. You have fairly hard waterwhich may not be all that suitable for brewing, as is, so some tweaking is definitely needed.
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[Silver_Is_Money]

Total Hardness (as CaCo3) = 2.5*(Ca++) + 4.12*(Mg++)

Total Hardness (as CaCo3) = 2.5*(83) + 4.12*(47.1)
Total Hardness (as CaCo3) = 401.6 ppm (or mg/L)

Rather than using 80% Lactic Acid you might want to consider using 85% Phosphoric Acid. Phosphoric acid is appreciably more flavor neutral.

EDIT: Correcting that this formula is for total hardness, and not for alkalinity as originally stated.

 

[adam88]

Thanks for the response!

So i only have to add phosphoric acid to my tapwater? Isnt this NK value and/or Ca value too high for a neipa?
I just have to lower the ph of my water then it will be totally OK for a neipa? (Or better recommended to use partially RO water with some water treatment (like gypsum, epsom salt etc?)?

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for the response!

So i only have to add phosphoric acid to my tapwater? Isnt this NK value and/or Ca value too high for a neipa?
I just have to lower the ph of my water then it will be totally OK for a neipa? (Or better recommended to use partially RO water with some water treatment (like gypsum, epsom salt etc?)?

No, you add the acid to neutralize that high bicarbonate level. That is fine to do.

You do have way too much sulfate for a NEIPA in that 'target' profile- you've got the west coast pale ale style there, high in sulfate and lower in chloride. for a NEIPA, that's usually reversed- higher in chloride but lower in sulfate You want to target a mash pH of 5.4ish, lower the sulfate a lot, and consider raising the chloride a bit.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

NK alkalinity will be resolved via the use of 85% Phosphoric Acid, both for mash water and sparge water. I think you can use your tap water.

To your 24 liters of mash tap water I would add:
----------------------------------------------------
2.75 g. Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate)
2.30 g. Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) [presuming here fresh and thereby at ~94% pure]
3.25 g. Table Salt (NaCl)
12.0 mL of 85% Phosphoric Acid

To your 8 Liters of sparge tap water I would add:
----------------------------------------------------
0.92 g. Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate)
0.77 g. Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) [presuming again fresh and thereby at ~94% pure]
1.08 g. Table Salt (NaCl)
3.9 mL of 85% Phosphoric Acid

This should result in roughly:
-------------------------------
Ca++ = 142.2 mg/L
Mg++ = 47.1 mg/L
Na+ = 60.3 mg/L
Cl- = 149.6 mg/L
SO4-- = 75.9 mg/L

These levels of mash and sparge water acidification of course presume that the calculated 401.6 ppm of alkalinity is reasonably close to accurate. Do you have a pH meter for verification?

Since Calcium is highly flavor neutral, I don't believe that 142 ppm Ca++ is too high, but you certainly have the option of using 50% RO and 50% your water (or any other water blend ratio) if any of this is a concern to you. The bigger concern in my opinion is the potential flavor impact of the 47.1 ppm Mg++, as the magnesium ion may contribute a detectable bitterness. General advice is often suggested to limit Mg++ to not more than 30 ppm max. But even here you will not learn unless you try it. At least it is below 50 ppm.

Lastly, if your tap water has chlorine or chloramines present you will need to add a small amount of potassium metabisulfite (or Campden tablet) to remove these bactericides.

 

[adam88]

I'm thinking about using 50% RO water, 50% tapwater and add the necessary ingredients (CaCl2, NaCl, gypsium etc) you've mentioned above. I just have to find some online store to get these things because based on google it seems f*****n' hard in my country....

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'm thinking about using 50% RO water, 50% tapwater and add the necessary ingredients (CaCl2, NaCl, gypsium etc) you've mentioned above. I just have to find some online store to get these things because based on google it seems f*****n' hard in my country....

With due apology, I must admit that I made a huge error with my formula seen in #2 above in that it is actually the formula for total hardness and not at all the formula for computing alkalinity.

That said, in order to get your cations and anions to balance it does appear that your alkalinity and bicarbonate are likely quite close to how you originally stated them in your spreadsheet snapshots above, and it is just by pure coincidence that your alkalinity and total hardness are so close to having the same mg/L (ppm) values as for those which I computed incorrectly.

I have corrected my post #2 above to reflect that it is calculating total hardness.

Do you have the means to titrate your tap water and confirm its alkalinity? An inexpensive fish tank GH/KH test kit with liquid drops for titrating will accomplish this. In these kits GH is total hardness, and KH is alkalinity. Avoid the kits with paper strips, as the kits with liquid titrating drops have greater precision.

 

[cire]

adam88 said: ↑
I'm thinking about using 50% RO water, 50% tapwater and add the necessary ingredients (CaCl2, NaCl, gypsium etc) you've mentioned above. I just have to find some online store to get these things because based on google it seems f*****n' hard in my country....




https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/ send up to 30 kg of homebrewing supplies for 10 GBP via a 2-3 day service to your country. He stocks AMS/CRS for reducing alkalinity which increases sulphate and chlorides. With your level of alkalinity, phosphoric acid may result in deposits of tricalcium phosphate in treated liquor reducing available calcium and could potentially adhere to your HLT.

Assuming a balanced liquor profile with no other ions present suggests an alkalinity level of 380 ppm as calcium carbonate and after the addition of 2 ml of CRS to each litre of liquor, the following profile might be assumed.


Ca++ = 83 mg/L
Mg++ = 47.1 mg/L
Na+ = 7 mg/L
Cl- = 140 mg/L
SO4-- = 188 mg/L
Alk as CaCO3 = 14 mg/L

Obviously the sulphate level is higher than that advocated for a NEIPA, but is an alternative.

 

[adam88]

Thanks!

I'm going to start again Bru'n water calculator with partially RO water. Let's see what the calculator shows then.

 

[mabrungard]

Since you're in the EU, I would assume you can get most any brewing supply from a homebrewing shop in a EU country. If you're brewing continental European styles, I would stay away from CRS since that may boost your sulfate and chloride higher than you'd prefer. Look for Lactic or Phosphoric acid. Typically, if you buy less than a liter of those products, they can easily be shipped without being called Hazardous Cargo.

 

[cire]

Since you're in the EU, I would assume you can get most any brewing supply from a homebrewing shop in a EU country. If you're brewing continental European styles, I would stay away from CRS since that may boost your sulfate and chloride higher than you'd prefer. Look for Lactic or Phosphoric acid. Typically, if you buy less than a liter of those products, they can easily be shipped without being called Hazardous Cargo.

Martin, as water treatment influences beer style and beer preferences are a matter personal taste, can it be assumed you have obtained and used CRS? If so, what was it you found about the final product and would you say it is unsuitable in all circumstances?

 

[adam88]

Dear All,

Thanks for all your help! My water treatment stuff is on its way, and i'm started to play with RO water + tap water + water additions.
I've found some example for my water profile (for neip) e.g:

I used some online info to get my water amount. It seems i will start with 1:4 (malt:water) ratio so 24L to mash, it seems i will have 21-22L at the end of mashing. Then i will use 3-4L of sparge water to get 25-26L of wort for boiling. After boiling i will have ~20L of wort to ferment.

I've started Brun water calculator from the beginning with the info you gave me (and i've found in some topics). I added 50% of tapwater + 50% of RO water.

note: i've found that i have to lower my 7.56 ph to 5.4-5.5 for mashing (mash ph)-> this will end 5.2ph at boiling.





It seems ok now?