Dark color beer using only Maris Otter

[byronyasgur]

I am looking at cloning a beer I sometimes drink. Several pieces of information including a few ad hoc statements on the company website state that they only use Marris Otter, in fact in one place the even mention "100% floor malt. No crystal, no chocolate. It’s just straight up, no compromise, cream of the crop floor malt.". Yet I recon the SRM of the beer to be around 13 or 14 SRM. Is this possible and if so how? Any Maris Otter I have looked at seems to light in colour to make a beer like that. Could there be something special about the colour of the floor malted variety? Might they roast it?

 

[JLump]

The only thing I can think of is if they to a decoction mash. I'm not sure if just a decoction can really make a beer DARK though...

 

[danlad]

Caramel?

 

[JonM]

Boil the living daylights out of it (I assume you're talking about North Coast Old Stock Ale?)

Here's my clone - 100% Maris Otter boiled for 3+ hours.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1481148938.894462.jpg

 

[danlad]

That is 100% of the malt they use is MO but that doesn't cover anything else

 

[byronyasgur]

Caramel?

thought crystal and caramel were the same thing - or do you literally mean caramel?

Boil the living daylights out of it (I assume you're talking about North Coast Old Stock Ale?)

Here's my clone - 100% Maris Otter boiled for 3+ hours.
View attachment 379720

interesting - yes I thought that might work - using brewtoad though it the boil time doesn't affect the colour that I can see - guess that's a thumbs down for brewtoad.
Why though would you or anyone bother boiling wort for that long rather than just adding crystal?
no it's "Francis Big Bangin" IPA that I'm attempting to clone

That is 100% of the malt they use is MO but that doesn't cover anything else

do you mean like colourings or something? We used LME in a brewery I worked in to darken a light beer I remember.

 

[kingwood-kid]

Brewers caramel, or maybe candi syrup? Of course, MO is a strain of barley that could be toasted to make it darker.

 

[beermanpete]

The only thing I can think of is if they to a decoction mash. I'm not sure if just a decoction can really make a beer DARK though...

Boil the living daylights out of it (I assume you're talking about North Coast Old Stock Ale?)

Yes to both. I made a Maibock (twice) that used only pale Vienna malt that turned out as dark as a Dopplebock. A triple decoction mash and a 3 hour boil surely carmalized the wort and made the color darker.

 

[JKaranka]

Brewers' caramel is the typical way to adjust colour. You don't need much.

 

[z-bob]

Boil the first of the first runnings down to a syrup while you finish the sparging, etc. (make caramel)

 

[byronyasgur]

Boil the first of the first runnings down to a syrup while you finish the sparging, etc. (make caramel)

sounds like I'd need to be a bit more experienced than I am to attempt that one - but it does sound good - I'll keep it in mind for some day in the future

 

[byronyasgur]

The caramel idea sounds about right for me, but to be honest at this early stage I was using to colour to try to figure out the grain bill ( ie how could it be just maris otter ) ... and clearly there are other options ( caramel, decoction, caramelise some wort, long boil ) ... so I think that answers that for me. I'll prob just buy some brewers caramel as I think that would be the most likely one that a commercial brewery would use - but does it affect the taste do I need to take that into consideration

 

[byronyasgur]

Boil the first of the first runnings down to a syrup while you finish the sparging, etc. (make caramel)

hmm - actually this sounds a little less scary the more i think about it and caramel is not that cheap - might have a go - have you actually done it or is it just a suggestion - any guidelines about how long to boil for, how to estimate colour effect, temperature of boil etc.

 

[DaWhip]

I have done both the super long boil and the first runnings boil to change color and flavor. Both were pretty easy.

On the full volume long boil, you can watch the color change and stop when it is about where you want it. You won't notice if you are standing over it, but look once an hour or so and you will definitely see caramel colors start coming out.

I most recently did this for a 1gal barley wine batch. I wasn't doing the long boil for color, but to hit my target gravity. I had to sparge a ton to get enough sugars into the BK and ended up with 3+ gallons in the boil. I was tired, so opted to do a low boil overnight to get to my 1 gallon. When I went to bed it was a light tan color. Woke up ~4 hours later and it was a deep amber and right at the volume I wanted. I kicked the boil up high and started my hop additions.

I like the first runnings boil better, but results are probably a little less predictable, at least without some practice. For mine, I pulled the first 2 gallons of runnings and put it in a seperate pot and boiled hard down to about 1/2 gallon while I finished sparging and boiling the rest of the batch. It definitely got caramelly/syrupy and the SRM was noticeably higher than brewers friend calculator estimated.

In both cases, adjust sparge volumes and volumes going into BK appropriately so you aren't short on volume.

 

[HomebrewSupply]

I have done both the super long boil and the first runnings boil to change color and flavor

Niceee. I recently did a 20% Barleywine with a 2 hour boil. Started with a bright ruby color and ended with a deep amber. It's in the bottles now. I'm really tempted to pop one open... But I digress.

My suggestion is to either decoct or boil longer, as many people above have already suggested.

 

[mrdauber64]

You could also toast a portion of the MO in the oven to make the grains darker and add both color and flavor to the beer. This would still technically be "100% Marris Otter".

Check this site out for guidelines on how long to toast your grains: http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/experiment/toasting-your-own-malt

 

[z-bob]

hmm - actually this sounds a little less scary the more i think about it and caramel is not that cheap - might have a go - have you actually done it or is it just a suggestion - any guidelines about how long to boil for, how to estimate colour effect, temperature of boil etc.

I've not done it yet. I actually haven't brewed much of anything this year due to time constraints, and getting depressed about that. (gotta correct that during Christmas break.)

I'm planning to brew a Belgian dubbel using just pilsner malt and white sugar. (the sugar goes in the first runnings and boils down while I continue to sparge.) If it doesn't get dark enough, I'll add more hops and call it something else

 

[Eucrid]

no it's "Francis Big Bangin" IPA that I'm attempting to clone

No way that beer is 14 SRM. More like 6 or 7.

 

[Kent88]

I bet they have an agreement with the maltster that they make their MO just a little darker than what you usually see.

 

[byronyasgur]

No way that beer is 14 SRM. More like 6 or 7.

really - you definitely could be right - plus you sound confident which is a good thing - :rockin: - nice to have another view - the method I used to estimate was probably a bit off - tbh I'm a bit surprised that they would have done anything technical to get the colour up and 6 or 7 is roughly where it comes out on the brewing software too - will take this into consideration - any thoughts on the recipe I have a fair bit of info scraped

 

[byronyasgur]

thanks for all the comments - they're very educational - as you may read Eucrid's ( who knows the beer) feeling that my SRM estimation is off and he could easily be right so for the first version of the clone I'll prob just brew it or maybe go with a slightly longer boil or something and see how the colour comes out and then I have all this great info to cover me if it's not dark enough - I'm sure I'll use it on some other brew anyway

 

[JKaranka]

I wouldn't boil down first runnings. That is some modern American practice that has nothing to do with British beer. Scottish ales were mostly pale malt ( maize and sugar too) and enough brewers' caramel to make them dark. It barely affects the flavour, but you also drink through your eyes...

 

[homemaltster]

Wow. So many different ways to get dark beer out of pale malt. It raises the question - are these methods equal, or will you end up with totally different beers?

I just read an article posted on Brulosophy but written by a German brewer who does decoction mashing. There's some interesting info there about getting dark beer from pale malt - http://brulosophy.com/2016/12/08/in-defense-of-decoction-a-german-purists-perspective-on-an-age-old-brewing-method/

 

[madscientist451]

Boil the first of the first runnings down to a syrup while you finish the sparging, etc. (make caramel)

To expand on the above, I'd start by puling l about 3 quarts of your first runnings, place in a side pot and boil it down until its thick and it caramelizes somewhat. You can start your main boil while this is going on.
You'll have to carefully watch , adjust heat, and stir so you don't scortch it.
Add side pot to main boil when its done.
You'll have to experiment with how much to reduce and what level of caramelizaztion. Note that you'll also get a different flavor profile, so you'll have to further experiment to to get the taste your are looking for.

Edit: I've never heard of this beer, but I found some on line reviews, including this one from Beer Advocate:

Poured a opaque to hazy golden orange with a white head. Strong orange jumping out in the aroma. The flavor was also primarily orange but more muted than the aroma. The bitter is not strong, nice amount. Carbonation is lively which gives it a full mouthfeel. Overall I enjoyed the beer, a very orange IPA with limited bitter is good for me.


After reading this, I wouldn't boil down a portion of the first runnings at all.
Instead, I'd just do a 90 minute boil and see how your color/flavor profile compares to the original.
Good Luck

 

[Wayne1]

Simpson's Malt makes a Maris Otter Crystal malt at 50-60L

Heritage Crystal Malt

 

[byronyasgur]

I wouldn't boil down first runnings. That is some modern American practice that has nothing to do with British beer

ok .... but it's a west coast IPA actually - made by an Irish company

 

[Eucrid]

really - you definitely could be right - plus you sound confident which is a good thing - :rockin: - nice to have another view - the method I used to estimate was probably a bit off - tbh I'm a bit surprised that they would have done anything technical to get the colour up and 6 or 7 is roughly where it comes out on the brewing software too - will take this into consideration - any thoughts on the recipe I have a fair bit of info scraped

Looking at their site info I'd say just use enough MO to get to the OG you want and hop generously with Simcoe and Mosaic late on. Dry hop with loads of Mosaic.

Its a lovely beer. If you want to ask more people who will have tried it and know the beer (may even know the brewers) try the forums for National Homebrew Club of Ireland. If you are Irish join up if you're not already a member, you'll save money and get info from loads of good local brewers.

 

[byronyasgur]

Looking at their site info I'd say just use enough MO to get to the OG you want and hop generously with Simcoe and Mosaic late on. Dry hop with loads of Mosaic.

Its a lovely beer. If you want to ask more people who will have tried it and know the beer (may even know the brewers) try the forums for National Homebrew Club of Ireland. If you are Irish join up if you're not already a member, you'll save money and get info from loads of good local brewers.

yea I'm on that forum I just tend to post here - obvious really i should have - will try that - thanks for the tips - why would you say more mosaic than simcoe in the dry hopping btw - any reason

 

[Eucrid]

Just the way they have it described on their own site. Also think it has more of that fruity mosaic aroma from what I can remember of the beer. A couple of months since I had it.

 

[timdillon36]

Wow, i read every post to make sure someone else didnt post the obvious.

MO is a type, or strain, of grain. It can be grown by anybody anywhere. It is as genaric of a term as 6 row or 2 row.

"Floor malting" is only the first step to turn a type of barly into beer. You could roast the **** out of it and make an all MO coffee stout if you want.

All of the grain could be harvested from the same field and malted on the same floor but then some kilned warmer and darker.